What do you believe and why do you believe it?

[calibob]

I originally posted this message in the New Member Intro section but a member said I should post it here. So here goes...

Colloquially speaking I am an agnostic as I don't know whether or not a god exists. Technically I am an atheist as I don't believe any god claim I have heard. Although I used to be a Christian. I was brought up in the Church of England but properly self-identified as a Christian in my twenties and believed I was saved. I had my doubts after several months as a result of speaking to atheists and ex-Christians. Some things in the Bible stopped making sense to me. Some of the Bible was immoral, some of it was inconsistent and some of it was not credible. I prayed for answers but no answers came. I now consider myself to be an ex-Christian. Every so often I like to challenge my beliefs as I think it is healthy. In that spirit I would like to ask all Christians here what do you believe and why do you believe it?

The largest misconception I think many people have is than going to or joining a church determines if they some way defines them as being a christian, (small 'c'.) Becoming a Christian is different altogether it is a metamorphic change of heart and attitude. A person does not become an athlete by watching or going to games. Becoming a Christian, (pro-noun, capitol 'C') takes desire, determination and faith. Faith that Christ died for our shortcomings and the determination that we want join his team. Learn his ways and the desire to become more pleasing to him.

We are likened to his bride. We must fall in love with him. Choosing sin rather than staying true to desire to please him is like committing adultery and he is a jealous God! The bible says so many times but he loves us so much he continually takes us back in spite of our temporary unfaithfulness. This should bolster our love and commitment to him. Not weaken it.

We should not take him for granted either. Jesus IS, not was; The Living Word of God. He allowed himself to die for us. I prayed for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit and what I received changed my life. It was better than winning some sort of super sweepstakes and in love with him an a non carnal way. None of my accomplishment's or losses will ever change that. Pray for yourself, Fall away like a seed and take root in God's fertile ground. Allow yourself to be watered and nourished and you will grow!

 

[Spectrox]

How does someone become an ex-Christian?

"I had my doubts after several months as a result of speaking to atheists and ex-Christians"

This is the problem.
You wanted to leave the faith, so you went ONLY to those people who would make arguments AGAINST it.
You did NOT go to people who could make arguments FOR it.

I hear this from people all the time.
It is very disingenuous.

You ALREADY wanted to leave the faith, so you went looking for excuses... you went only to people who would give arguments against Christianity to soothe your conscience.

Happens every day.

I have NEVER heard an ex-Christian say, "I was having doubts, so I read books by Christian scholars and apologists who could give me good, solid, scholarly, Christian answers."
I have NEVER heard ANY ex-Christian say that.

Because that isn't what they want.
People who leave the faith do so because they WANT to leave the faith - and because they WANT to leave the faith, they go LOOKING for arguments AGAINST it to justify themselves.

When they go looking ONLY for arguments AGAINST God, guess what?
They find some.
Shocker.
If they LOOKED for arguments FOR Christianity, and for logical answers to DEFEND the faith... they would find that instead.

Ex-Christians NEVER start by looking for good, logical, Christian answers to their questions.
They don't want good Christian answers... they don't want proofs for the existence of God, or logical Christian explanations.
They look only for arguments against God, because that is the only thing they desire.

I hear this stuff every single day.

It's very common, and very predictable.

..

This is not an accurate characterisation of what I went through. You know nothing about me other than what I have written on this site. I was not looking for excuses to leave Christianity. In fact the opposite was true. I wanted to become a better Christian. This eventually clashed with the real world and I was presented with new information that I had not previously considered. This new information eventually won out over my presuppositions.

 

[Spectrox]

I believe what the Bible says, which is different from what you think it says.

I believe it because I sincerely prayed to God for help and received it.

As my testimony goes, I was a drug addict. I didn't know anything about God, except for hearing that there is a God. One night, I cried myself to sleep asking God for help. I was near the end of my rope. I said I didn't even know if he was real, but if he would help me I would follow him.
As I was leaving for work the next day, my car wouldn't start. Wouldn't even crank over, like a dead battery. I started hitching to work and a car picked me up. During the ride, a girl named Mary asked me if I knew Jesus. Before dropping me off at work, she asked if she could have my address to talk with me about the Lord.
After work, the bartender gave me a ride home. Before I went into my apartment, I looked over at my car. I went over to it and put the key in the ignition. It started.
Mary taught me a lot about Jesus.

Thank you for sharing your story and I'm glad that your life has been turned around.

I prayed to the God I believed in for months but no meaningful answers came.

 

[Spectrox]

You are obviously still being delt with by the Holy Spirit, or you wouldn't be asking questions.
That being said, I don't believe in revivalism. In other words there are no arguments that we can make to either strum your emotions, or stimulate your intellect that will cause you to make a decision for Christ. Either you will submit to the work of the Holy Spirit, or you will reinforce you own will against him.
You know the truth, that mankind is desperately evil, selfish, and wicked. You have full access to the Gospel. That God stepped into his creation to rectify the problem himself.

Thanks for your interest in this thread. I would like to ask some questions if that is ok?

1. What is your starting point definition of faith?

2. How confident are you about your God belief – with 0% as having no confidence and 100% as having complete certainty that you are correct?

3. What fraction of your belief in the Christian God is faith and what fraction is evidence?

Thank you for considering my questions.

 

[Spectrox]

What. Love because Jesus saved me
Why? Cos without him I would be dead. Jesus gave up his life so I could have eternal life and not only me but everyone else who believes in Him.

Faith..God has shown me how good He is though I cant always see it physically, I know deep in my heart and I know it spiritually.
Evidence...I received the holy spirit and spoken in unknown tongue praising God. Also demons cast out, and I never had to take medication again, used to be on a drugs every day. And also my life changed for the better.

Reading the Bible has been like spiritual food to me, God speaks to me theough scripture.

People may say having faith requires you to be 100 percent certain but thing is if you have an ecnounter with God you just know and nothing can shake your faith even though other people may doubt because THEY havent encountered Him. GOd reveals himself you just need to submit to Him and acknowledge that He is God. Once I did that, repented of my unbelief He just revealed Himself to me and the Bible made sense I could never read it before.

You come to the right place and just want to encourage you cos Jesus is amazing, get to know Him. You have the seed but your faith was kinda choked by the cares of this world and the evil one took it away, so you left with nothing. Dismiss the naysayers and get your heart right with God, so that your faith can be rooted, nurtured. and established because that seed of the Word is a good seed. You just need to be open to receiving.

Thanks for the reply.
I felt this way when I self-identified as a Christian.
The evidence that you say you have was that a demon was cast out. Can you describe this incident to me? What happened? How do you know it was a demon and how do you know it was cast out?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Also, it's not an established historical fact that "Jesus of Nazareth was crucified by the Romans in AD 30." Please provide a citation for this with evidence.

ANTIQUTIES OF THE JEWS BY FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS
CHAPTER 3.
SEDITION OF THE JEWS AGAINST PONTIUS PILATE. CONCERNING CHRIST, AND WHAT BEFELL PAULINA AND THE JEWS AT ROME,

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

And there is no need to quote apostate and skeptical *scholars* such as Bart Ehrmann to promote your views. The Gospels themselves are an accurate and perfect HISTORICAL RECORD. If you cannot accept that, then you are not prepared to objectively look at any evidence.

 

[Spectrox]

With His work within, faith to faith, line upon line, and with the evidence seen in all of creation, I am 100% convinced. He blesses us all, those who seek to find Him.

Jeremiah 15:16 hits it nail on the head what He has done for me. I am so very grateful.

Much love and prayer to you and yours, in Him. He gets and deserves, ALL the Glory.

It sounds like faith is the main source of your belief.

Is there any position that you couldn’t take based on faith? If not, why not?

If you had been raise in a Muslim country, for instance, would you be more likely to self-identify as a Muslim or a Christian?

How do you decide if your faith is more likely to be true than a that of a Hindu, for example?

 

[calibob]

This is not an accurate characterisation of what I went through. You know nothing about me other than what I have written on this site. I was not looking for excuses to leave Christianity. In fact the opposite was true. I wanted to become a better Christian. This eventually clashed with the real world and I was presented with new information that I had not previously considered. This new information eventually won out over my presuppositions.

Who were you referring to? I certainly did not characterize you personally, at all. What real world? The one that God made or the one that science says he didn't? Even Einstein believed in intelligent creation. A man trying to figure out God is more absurd then a moth trying to figure out how the space shuttle can fly in the vacum of space.

 

[Spectrox]

The largest misconception I think many people have is than going to or joining a church determines if they some way defines them as being a christian, (small 'c'.) Becoming a Christian is different altogether it is a metamorphic change of heart and attitude. A person does not become an athlete by watching or going to games. Becoming a Christian, (pro-noun, capitol 'C') takes desire, determination and faith. Faith that Christ died for our shortcomings and the determination that we want join his team. Learn his ways and the desire to become more pleasing to him.

We are likened to his bride. We must fall in love with him. Choosing sin rather than staying true to desire to please him is like committing adultery and he is a jealous God! The bible says so many times but he loves us so much he continually takes us back in spite of our temporary unfaithfulness. This should bolster our love and commitment to him. Not weaken it.

We should not take him for granted either. Jesus IS, not was; The Living Word of God. He allowed himself to die for us. I prayed for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit and what I received changed my life. It was better than winning some sort of super sweepstakes and in love with him an a non carnal way. None of my accomplishment's or losses will ever change that. Pray for yourself, Fall away like a seed and take root in God's fertile ground. Allow yourself to be watered and nourished and you will grow!

I appreciate the poetry in what you have written. However it doesn't convince me that Biblical claims are correct.

Is there any position that you couldn’t take based on faith? If not, why not?
If you had been raised in a Muslim country, for instance, would you be more likely to self-identify as a Muslim or a Christian?
How do you decide if your faith is more likely to be true than a that of a Hindu, for example?

 

[Spectrox]

Who were you referring to? I certainly did not characterize you personally, at all. What real world? The one that God made or the one that science says he didn't? Even Einstein believed in intelligent creation. A man trying to figure out God is more absurd then a moth trying to figure out how the space shuttle can fly in the vacum of space.

I apologise. It was meant for Maxwell not you. I don't know what happened there.

 

[Spectrox]

ANTIQUTIES OF THE JEWS BY FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS
CHAPTER 3.
SEDITION OF THE JEWS AGAINST PONTIUS PILATE. CONCERNING CHRIST, AND WHAT BEFELL PAULINA AND THE JEWS AT ROME,

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

And there is no need to quote apostate and skeptical *scholars* such as Bart Ehrmann to promote your views. The Gospels themselves are an accurate and perfect HISTORICAL RECORD. If you cannot accept that, then you are not prepared to objectively look at any evidence.

Putting it in BOLD really made your point.... Not. I believe it is you who is unwilling to objectively look at evidence. Josephus dates from around 90CE and is not contemporary to 30CE when you believed Jesus was crucified. Also even some non-mythicist scholars do not consider Josephus a reliable source. I'm no expert but I have read that of the 2 sections Josephus wrote, one section is not clearly talking about the Jesus of the Gospels and the other is a 4th century interpolation.
What you should perhaps look into is why the first Christian writings (Paul around 50CE?) do not talk of Jesus as a historical figure but instead portray him as a vision or ghost. Also Philo of Alexandria was ideally placed to write about the life of Christ as it unfolded and he mentions nothing about him or his followers.
I find this very odd.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Thanks for your interest in this thread. I would like to ask some questions if that is ok?

1. What is your starting point definition of faith?

2. How confident are you about your God belief – with 0% as having no confidence and 100% as having complete certainty that you are correct?

3. What fraction of your belief in the Christian God is faith and what fraction is evidence?

Thank you for considering my questions.

I will attempt to explain faith in as simple of terms as possible. Faith is to simply know something in a way that you act on it. This is a bad analogy, but I offer it any way. When you sit in a chair, you just walk up in front of it and sit down. You know that when you sit that chair is going to hold you and not dump you in the floor. That type of knowing is faith.

100%

Number three is a hard one. Because not all evidences are tangible. I can honestly say that while I have an extensive list of evidences; that's not why I believe. Why I believe is more of a knowing like the chair analogy, as I heard the Gospel preached, and as I read the words in the Bible, I just know this is truth. It's a Devine revelation

Hope that helps you understand

 

[dcontroversal]

Thanks for your interest in this thread. I would like to ask some questions if that is ok?

1. What is your starting point definition of faith?

2. How confident are you about your God belief – with 0% as having no confidence and 100% as having complete certainty that you are correct?

3. What fraction of your belief in the Christian God is faith and what fraction is evidence?

Thank you for considering my questions.

Well........my starting point was at age 7 when I heard the bible taught.....And I must say that the bible states that God deals faith in measure and faith can be matured and grown......the bible states....faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD.....we hear the message and we chose to believe or not.....if God has dealt faith to you, you will believe the word.

I have no doubt in my belief of God and or his word as being valid......and too be honest....it is not really dependent upon me being correct....God and his word has stood the test of time and will stand regardless of my belief and or defense of it.....it has been compared to an anvil and the hammer blows to that of a skeptic....the anvil wears out the hammer every time, the hammers need to be replaced and yet the anvil remains true.....same is true of the skeptics....think about this truth friend.....for thousands of years men have come and gone to the ground denying the validity of the word of God or God himself......and yet the same word of God is still here, being preached and proclaimed even though men have attempted to kill it out, burn it out, persecute it out of existence....The word is still here and they are all gone.......

The fraction cannot really be divided......The just shall live by faith....I believed before I ever seen any evidence......and any and all evidence I have seen has only grown and solidified my faith.

Thanks for asking migo

 

[Spectrox]

I will attempt to explain faith in as simple of terms as possible. Faith is to simply know something in a way that you act on it. This is a bad analogy, but I offer it any way. When you sit in a chair, you just walk up in front of it and sit down. You know that when you sit that chair is going to hold you and not dump you in the floor. That type of knowing is faith.

100%

Number three is a hard one. Because not all evidences are tangible. I can honestly say that while I have an extensive list of evidences; that's not why I believe. Why I believe is more of a knowing like the chair analogy, as I heard the Gospel preached, and as I read the words in the Bible, I just know this is truth. It's a Devine revelation

Hope that helps you understand

Thanks for this. I don't think the chair analogy is useful. Only the other day I sat in a chair and it started to collapse from under me. Honestly.

My definition of faith is accepting a claim as true where there is insufficient reliable evidence.

Is there any position that you couldn’t take based on faith? If not, why not?

If you had been raised in a Muslim country, for instance, would you be more likely to self-identify as a Muslim or a Christian?

How do you decide if your faith is more likely to be true than a that of a Hindu, for example?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It sounds like faith is the main source of your belief.

Is there any position that you couldn’t take based on faith? If not, why not?

If you had been raise in a Muslim country, for instance, would you be more likely to self-identify as a Muslim or a Christian?

How do you decide if your faith is more likely to be true than a that of a Hindu, for example?

Faith is based on things not seen.

But it is built by evidence.. It is not just blind.

 

[Spectrox]

Well........my starting point was at age 7 when I heard the bible taught.....And I must say that the bible states that God deals faith in measure and faith can be matured and grown......the bible states....faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD.....we hear the message and we chose to believe or not.....if God has dealt faith to you, you will believe the word.

I have no doubt in my belief of God and or his word as being valid......and too be honest....it is not really dependent upon me being correct....God and his word has stood the test of time and will stand regardless of my belief and or defense of it.....it has been compared to an anvil and the hammer blows to that of a skeptic....the anvil wears out the hammer every time, the hammers need to be replaced and yet the anvil remains true.....same is true of the skeptics....think about this truth friend.....for thousands of years men have come and gone to the ground denying the validity of the word of God or God himself......and yet the same word of God is still here, being preached and proclaimed even though men have attempted to kill it out, burn it out, persecute it out of existence....The word is still here and they are all gone.......

The fraction cannot really be divided......The just shall live by faith....I believed before I ever seen any evidence......and any and all evidence I have seen has only grown and solidified my faith.

Thanks for asking migo

My pleasure!

Is there any position that you couldn’t take based on faith? If not, why not?

If you had been raised in a Muslim country, for instance, would you be more likely to self-identify as a Muslim or a Christian?

How do you decide if your faith is more likely to be true than a that of a Hindu, for example?

 

[calibob]

I appreciate the poetry in what you have written. However it doesn't convince me that Biblical claims are correct.

Is there any position that you couldn’t take based on faith? If not, why not?
If you had been raised in a Muslim country, for instance, would you be more likely to self-identify as a Muslim or a Christian?
How do you decide if your faith is more likely to be true than a that of a Hindu, for example?

Thank you for the challenge; I was an agnostic who challenged the validity of faith also. I suspected the God and Jesus was a fairy tale but I met a few Christians several years after I decided that what I had been taught as a child and a teenager by the Holy Catholic Church was a pack of lies. I was not convinced the spiritual realm existed at all. I earnestly asked God and Jesus, if they existed to come to me and prove it. I really meant it. And didn't know if there was ay real God to hear my request. I was filled with Love and joy far beyond anything that I previously knew existed. If you expect to get an answer that isn't spiritual or you can find by human means or intellect. I'm the wrong guy. I told you what happened to me and how I became convinced. An old saying of mine is "We can't put God in a box." Don't expect to see him in a microscope or a telescope. He's too big. He's bigger than the universe he created. Why would so many people that associated with Jesus accept torture and death rather than deny that; He Is, The Christ?

 

[garee]

How do you know God has revealed it? Also, it's not an established historical fact that "Jesus of Nazareth was crucified by the Romans in AD 30." Please provide a citation for this with evidence. There are some scholars such as Dr Richard Carrier (peer-reviewed book), Dr Robert Price, Dr David Fitzgerald and arguably Professor Bart Ehrmann who think there are real problems with the historicity of the New Testament and that much or all of it has been embellished or made up. Even if Jesus existed and was crucified, it does not demonstrate that a God was involved.

You wrote "Even AD (Anno Domini) -- in the year of our Lord -- confirms that as a historical fact." This is not correct and shows no real understanding of how our calendars were formed over time. For an historical event to be verified it has to satisfy the historical method of Gilbert J. Garraghan.

Whose historical records, the things of God as it is written or those of men? Catholisicim and corrupted Judaism says of venerable men seen.

Christians know things as the Spirit of Christ that lives in their earthen bodies of death reveals it to them. . the mysteries made known .

Not after flesh and blood ...what the eyes see.

He witness to our new spirits through His word .His word is Spirit as life giving.(John 6) what the eyes see the temporal profits for nothing. We do not know him after the rudiments of this world.

That would be a form of Paganism after the philosophies or men. We are warned of that kind of no faith.

Colossians 2:8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

My pleasure!

Is there any position that you couldn’t take based on faith? If not, why not?

If you had been raised in a Muslim country, for instance, would you be more likely to self-identify as a Muslim or a Christian?

How do you decide if your faith is more likely to be true than a that of a Hindu, for example?

Well........I could not believe 99% of the worlds religions because they contradict the bible.....and in my first post, I stated why I believe the bible is different and inspired as compared to the Muslim's book written by one man.

As far as being in a Muslim country and what religion I may or may not be.......Time and chance happens to all and i could have been born in any country and or raised in any religion, but will say that the bible states that God has called those that will be saved before the foundation of the earth was laid.....so....regardless of where one is born, if they are going to be saved by God's call and belief into the truth they will be saved regardless of where they are born and or raised.....

As stated....in the first post we can see that the bible has a very unique foundation and is the only book that makes sense....and I would have a hard time believing any book that sets forth 50,000 gods of every flavor and or a book that legitimizes sex with animals, dead bodies and or allows me to cut your head off if you do not believe as I believe.

and IN all fairness to my last point....I know the O.T. is full of war and conquest by the command of God, but the nations that God moved against were sacrificing babies to false gods, had temple prostitutes and sodomites, promoted slavery and even in some cases legitimized cannibalism, occultism etc.....

 

[garee]

My pleasure!

Is there any position that you couldn’t take based on faith? If not, why not?

If you had been raised in a Muslim country, for instance, would you be more likely to self-identify as a Muslim or a Christian?

How do you decide if your faith is more likely to be true than a that of a Hindu, for example?

Its not where we were raised. No familiarity with God who is not a man as us. Jesus own brothers denied him but rather have we been raised to newness of spirit life in respect to faith that comes from hearing God . Not hearing the Muslims or Jews or any pagan nation .

As apologist we defend the faith that does defend us .We have the privilege of putting on the armor .No protection for the back side The Holy Spirit is the rear guard keeping the weaker flock from wolves in sheep's skin.

It would seem you are familiar with the gospel . Like those in Hebrews 6 tasted had a peek and said I will jump on the other ship going the other way. Better things accompany the work Christ began in us. He says he will not forget the good works we do offer towards his name. We have a new identity (Christians)