Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[SimpleGardner]

are you saying that Christians should try to keep the spiritual side of the dietary laws? Or are you saying that Christians should try to follow the physical side of the dietary laws as well? And should they do this, in your view, simply for health reasons?

After all of our discussion and round and round on the same topic, so i think it is a wise recommendation that you should consult with the Holy Spirit in scripture for the answers you bring to me. I think if you are sincere and patient you will receive your answers.

Joh 16:13 KJV Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jn 2:27 KJV But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

With these scriptures in mind, if you will humble yourself and offer up any of the doctrines you learned from other men or churches you may be offered an opportunity to repent from the doctrines that are not of God

Again, you would find peace then.

 

[Grandpa]

This was the missing piece of the puzzle that caused Israel and Judah to fail to obey. They lacked the desire.

Negative Ghost Rider.

The missing piece of the puzzle wasn't desire. The missing piece of the puzzle was ability.

That's still the missing piece today.

And that is EXACTLY why the law is the ministration of condemnation and death.

And that is EXACTLY why the Lord Jesus Christ freed us from that condemnation and death.

Because we have no ability, no strength, to do it ourselves. Desire we have plenty of.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[Yahshua]

Where do you come up with those defenitions?

I am not sure a jew in jesus day would agree with you.

Justification by defenition means “delaired righteous” or “declaired inocent of all charges. In a court of law. It would mean aquited lf all crimes. Or innocent.

If you're not sure where the definitions come from then unfortunately you're not reading these passages through fully.

What a your answer to my second question? What was the point James was making when read in full context in the passage you posted? He makes his point in verse 12

 

[Grandpa]

Sadly, It appears he is afraid of getting tricked. Thats why he will not answer questions, or gets angry when we try to show him stuff.

I personally would be worried if I was that weak in faith. (Oh wait I was!!) and I did everyth8gn I could do to figure out why.
Praise God he showed me..

It does seem like all that is required is to talk someone into believing. But believing is a lot more than that.

I don't think someone can get talked into it. Or 'tricked' depending on your point of view.

I think some people understand what you are telling them already because they already believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

After all of our discussion and round and round on the same topic, so i think it is a wise recommendation that you should consult with the Holy Spirit in scripture for the answers you bring to me. I think if you are sincere and patient you will receive your answers.

Joh 16:13 KJV Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jn 2:27 KJV But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

With these scriptures in mind, if you will humble yourself and offer up any of the doctrines you learned from other men or churches you may be offered an opportunity to repent from the doctrines that are not of God

Again, you would find peace then.

Why do you think he needs those answers?

You assume much my friend

Many people ask questions of others to try to understand the other persons belief more (more fully understand their belief and make sure they are not misunderstanding them,) Or get them to see where they are coming from. Even jesus practiced this form of discussion.

The fact is, He knows the answer to those question. He, like all of us who have asked you questions, Want to see what YOU THINK the answers are. So we can see where you are comming from, and further understand what you believe, or get you to see what we see..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you're not sure where the definitions come from then unfortunately you're not reading these passages through fully.

What a your answer to my second question? What was the point James was making when read in full context in the passage you posted? He makes his point in verse 12

I read them fine

The whole law means the whole law. Paul was not trying to trick people. He said clearly, if your going to be circumcized to be saved your indebted to follow every command given moses (the whole law)

And as paul said later. Even those who follow the law and get circumcized can obey the Whole law (remember, Moses demanded the people obey every word. Paul confirmed what moses said, and james said if you keep every wrd, but miss in one part, your guilty of all)


I love it when you all try to water down the law and tell us we need to follow it, Yet when you say whole law. You do not mean the Whole law)

 

[SimpleGardner]

I'm pretty sure most people will know what day of the week I'm talking about whether I capitalize it or not.

I figured some legalist would get offended by it eventually.


I don't treat lightbearer poorly. I don't treat any of you legalists poorly.

I just point out your error. Which you really don't like.

Then I show the Truth. Which the legalist puts into their circular reasoning to continue to talk about things they don't really know anything about. Or maybe I should say they aren't as much of an expert on the subject as they seem to think?
1 Timothy 1:5-7
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

I should expect that you would understand most of what that is saying. I could continue to expound with scripture but it seems kind of lost on the legalist. Like they have a vail over their minds and can't see the forest for the trees.

Its a really big road block that I can't seem to get around. I don't think you can teach anyone how to be a Christian. I think it has to be revealed, to be given as a gift. And then once that happens a person knows how all of Christianity works.

I do like talking and arguing with legalists, though, because it continually causes me to be grateful for Christ and what He has blessed me with and how He continues to bless me.


Now, let me ask you a serious question. Is it more loving for someone to point out to someone else that they may not be a Christian even though they THINK they are; Or would it be more loving to just agree with someone who THINKS they are a Christian but probably aren't and not correct them in any way?

If someone receives rest from their work at the law do they then go back to that law and continue to work at it as though they haven't received rest?

It would probably be better to never have received rest than to receive it and then discard it and make a mockery of it. Wouldn't you agree?

I suppose not since we have 153 or so pages of this...

The word would be "impasse" which is where we stand in reference to any constructive fellowship. You accuse and demean. I feel for your lost heart, but am comforted in knowing you chose freely and were not misled. As your scripture citation says;
The goal of Gods command is love, which comes from pure hearts, good conscience and sincere faith.

To answer your other question; "Is it more loving........" Neither. Your premise is flawed.

Jas 1:27 NIV Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Going back one verse addresses your propensity to cast dispersion's;

Jas 1:26 NIV If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

And why not back it up one more:

Jas 1:25 NIV But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

Do you think the book of James is inspired GP?

 

[Grandpa]

The law, could not be FOLLOWED by "flesh men". Flesh is weak. Flesh can not follow Gods laws perfectly.
God sent Jesus. Jesus died. He sent the comforter. When we accept Jesus, God with us, we are saved, we "crucify, kill, dis associate, render no longer in control" our flesh, this is our choice to follow God. Baptism is our sign to the world of our acceptance of this. So as Jesus died and went into the tomb, we go down into the water. As Jesus rose "in Spirit" we come up out of the water, The Spirit within us NOW is working in our lives. Dead flesh, live Spirit.

THIS SPIRIT LED NEW CREATURES, THEY FOLLOW THE LAWS. (no longer made weak by the flesh) THEY CAN'T HELP IT. THE LAWS HAVE BECOME A PART OF THEM BECAUSE THE SPIRIT INSIDE THEM, LEADING THEM, GUIDING THEM, IN CHARGE, IS THE SPIRIT OF THE LAWS AND THE PROPHETS AND/OR THE WORD AND/OR JESUS AND/OR GOD. THEY ARE NOT "UNDER" THE LAW, THEY ARE "IN" THE LAW OR THE LAW IS "IN" THEM.

Spirit led creatures are led to not eat bacon?

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


I love the book of Galatians.

Don't you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The word would be "impasse" which is where we stand in reference to any constructive fellowship. You accuse and demean. I feel for your lost heart, but am comforted in knowing you chose freely and were not misled. As your scripture citation says;
The goal of Gods command is love, which comes from pure hearts, good conscience and sincere faith.

To answer your other question; "Is it more loving........" Neither. Your premise is flawed.

Jas 1:27 NIV Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Going back one verse addresses your propensity to cast dispersion's;

Jas 1:26 NIV If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

And why not back it up one more:

Jas 1:25 NIV But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

Do you think the book of James is inspired GP?

Thats the other thing we doo.

If we do not agree, we accuse and demean.

When you can not look at your own sin, and accuse others. Something is seriously wrong.

I actually am starting to feel sorry for these people

 

[SimpleGardner]

Even back in the time of Moses when he first gave the list, not everything applied to every person's situation. That was one of my earlier points last week. So when asked to provide a list that everyone is to follow today, the question doesn't compute because the list already exists. Just read it and see what applies to you and your situation and then do those things.

...but the question is still putting the cart before the horse...

After the receipt of the Holy Spirit, the intention of the Holy Spirit is to move the person to love Yah will ALL of their heart, soul, mind and strength. That doesn't mean what the world has redefined love to mean (i.e. "a high level of emotion and affection for..."). It means to put in energy, to give your all, your maximum effort to please Yah, even at your own expense (self-sacrifice).

...because (with the Holy Spirit in you) you WANT to do that. You want please Yah as much as humanly possible...which is specifically what "the holy spirit inside" was prophesied to do from ancient time.

...to provide the "WANT to"; that very desire. The unction. It's the Messiah's very own Spirit and that's all HE wanted to do when he was here in the flesh.

This was the missing piece of the puzzle that caused Israel and Judah to fail to obey. They lacked the desire.

The Messiah's very own Spirit inside of a person will cause that person to desire to do everything the Messiah's did. It can't not do that. It is written that such is what the promised Spirit was going to do once it was given.

With it, a person will not not want to do all that's in their power to do to obey. This is what Paul explains when he talks about the Spirit of Christ in Romans.

This is the mystery of godliness finally revealed: Christ in you.

Nicely worded Y!

I am always blessed when I read Davids words and how he was in LOVE with Gods LAWS!

It is an eye opener to me how David pleaded with God not to take His Holy Spirit from him. David knew he had been only able to understand and love the Laws of God through His Holy Spirit!

 

[Grandpa]

The word would be "impasse" which is where we stand in reference to any constructive fellowship. You accuse and demean. I feel for your lost heart, but am comforted in knowing you chose freely and were not misled. As your scripture citation says;
The goal of Gods command is love, which comes from pure hearts, good conscience and sincere faith.

To answer your other question; "Is it more loving........" Neither. Your premise is flawed.

Jas 1:27 NIV Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Going back one verse addresses your propensity to cast dispersion's;

Jas 1:26 NIV If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

And why not back it up one more:

Jas 1:25 NIV But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

Do you think the book of James is inspired GP?

I think the book of James is inspired but MAJORLY misunderstood by most of the people who quote it.

Like most of the rest of scripture.

2 Peter 3:16-18
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Grow in Grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

That's pretty much ALL of Christianity in a tidy little nutshell.

That's how you are protected from being led away with the error of the wicked. Or the error of the lawless which is the same thing. The error of those who think they are obeying the law but break it constantly. Don't be led away with that error. It is wicked. Instead, Grow in Grace and in the Knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

Thats the other thing we doo.

If we do not agree, we accuse and demean.

When you can not look at your own sin, and accuse others. Something is seriously wrong.

I actually am starting to feel sorry for these people

I know, I do too.

But we can't remove the vail. Only Christ can. That is why these discussions go on for 155+ pages...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know, I do too.

But we can't remove the vail. Only Christ can. That is why these discussions go on for 155+ pages...

All we can do is hope and pray God helps and they can see not only what we are trying to show them, but what they are doing,

The pharisees were hard hearted, ut we know a few of them found truth, and became great men of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nicely worded Y!

I am always blessed when I read Davids words and how he was in LOVE with Gods LAWS!

It is an eye opener to me how David pleaded with God not to take His Holy Spirit from him. David knew he had been only able to understand and love the Laws of God through His Holy Spirit!

More importanlty, David was taught by Gods law that he was guilty of sin, and that God did not desire sacrifice and burnt offering, but Gods mercy and grace..

 

[Grandpa]

All we can do is hope and pray God helps and they can see not only what we are trying to show them, but what they are doing,

The pharisees were hard hearted, ut we know a few of them found truth, and became great men of God.

Yes.

I hope, if not directly the people we talk to, then indirectly the people who see these posts and tend not to respond will be uplifted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes.

I hope, if not directly the people we talk to, then indirectly the people who see these posts and tend not to respond will be uplifted.

And some who are on the edge, or searching, will see..and respond with belief.

 

[Yahshua]

I'm just giving you an opportunity to convince us that Christians are to keep the Law of Moses. With a list of effective Mitzvot in hand it will be easier for us to see your point.

Well It's not about convincing you, it's simply about fully reading/listening to what the NT writers taught...and if they - who tasted of the heavenly gift of the holy spirit - are not believed then all the proof in the world won't matter. Notice what the Messiah said about such things...he was speaking about repentance from sins using Lazarus & the rich man as an example:


Luke 16:27-31

[Rich man says] Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’

29 But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’

30‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’

31Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”


The Holy Spirit given to the apostles won't conflict with the Holy Spirit given to the believer today.

Remember that the mystery of lawlessness was already growing in Paul's day, so what does that mean for that spirit nearly 2000 years later? Imagine how prevalent such a spirit is now?

The problem Israel had is they were given a list but had no desire to follow them. There was/is nothing wrong with the list, but we have the same issue today. There's nothing wrong with the list for it to be added to or taken away from. The issue is we have a lot of religious people who (again) have no desire to follow the list.

...but the Holy Spirit was promised to fix that lack of desire...

So isn't proof positive of what is missing in many Christians today?

Again, the mystery of lawlessness was prophesied to fall on the people in the latter days, in fulfillment of scripture. So this is what we're fighting against inside all of us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well It's not about convincing you, it's simply about fully reading/listening to what the NT writers taught...and if they - who tasted of the heavenly gift of the holy spirit - are not believed then all the proof in the world won't matter. Notice what the Messiah said about such things...he was speaking about repentance from sins using Lazarus & the rich man as an example:


Luke 16:27-31

[Rich man says] Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’

29 But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’

30‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’

31Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”


The Holy Spirit given to the apostles won't conflict with the Holy Spirit given to the believer today.

Remember that the mystery of lawlessness was already growing in Paul's day, so what does that mean for that spirit nearly 2000 years later? Imagine how prevalent such a spirit is now?

The problem Israel had is they were given a list but had no desire to follow them. There was/is nothing wrong with the list, but we have the same issue today. There's nothing wrong with the list for it to be added to or taken away from. The issue is we have a lot of religious people who (again) have no desire to follow the list.

...but the Holy Spirit was promised to fix that lack of desire...

So isn't proof positive of what is missing in many Christians today?

Again, the mystery of lawlessness was prophesied to fall on the people in the latter days, in fulfillment of scripture. So this is what we're fighting against inside all of us.

Is that all the the NT?

How about paul? Gal 3.. Whoever is under the law is under a curse, cursed is everyone who does not confirm and obey every word.

Or that the purpose of the law is to lead us to christ.

Or james, whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles in one point is guilty of the whole law..

Or do we pick and chose what to listen to? Like we pick and chose which parts of the law we think we have to obey?

 

[SimpleGardner]

Jews are proud to say they are circumcised, but OK, you don't have to answer personal questions. But you can answer this question: Do you think Christians should get circumcised?

You gave us important information about fruit younger than 3 years. See? It is important to publish a list of effective Mitzvot.

I don't really understand "Mitzvot", but if it is important to you then by all means available do so.

As a rule do you wash your hands after you use the bathroom? Don't answer. And if you do did you train your children to? Don't answer.

If so is this your "Mitzvot"?

 

[Deade]

are you saying that Christians should try to keep the spiritual side of the dietary laws? Or are you saying that Christians should try to follow the physical side of the dietary laws as well? And should they do this, in your view, simply for health reasons?

Well Dan, ask yourself who gave the dietary laws. It was the pre-incarnate Christ Himself (see 1 Cor. 10:4). Then ask yourself why He gave them. If you come to the conclusion it was for our own good, then you will know why you should keep them. Got it?

Jews are proud to say they are circumcised, but OK, you don't have to answer personal questions. But you can answer this question: Do you think Christians should get circumcised?

You gave us important information about fruit younger than 3 years. See? It is important to publish a list of effective Mitzvot.

Hey Marcelo, are you awake? I answered your question about circumcision in post #3042. Go back and read that. Like others have said on here, ask the Spirit of Truth on what to do or not do.