What do you believe and why do you believe it?

Spectrox · Aug 3, 2019

I originally posted this message in the New Member Intro section but a member said I should post it here. So here goes...

Colloquially speaking I am an agnostic as I don't know whether or not a god exists. Technically I am an atheist as I don't believe any god claim I have heard. Although I used to be a Christian. I was brought up in the Church of England but properly self-identified as a Christian in my twenties and believed I was saved. I had my doubts after several months as a result of speaking to atheists and ex-Christians. Some things in the Bible stopped making sense to me. Some of the Bible was immoral, some of it was inconsistent and some of it was not credible. I prayed for answers but no answers came. I now consider myself to be an ex-Christian. Every so often I like to challenge my beliefs as I think it is healthy. In that spirit I would like to ask all Christians here what do you believe and why do you believe it?

Dino246 · Aug 3, 2019

Welcome to CC, Spectrox.

I believe that there is only one entity rightly called "God"; the same God Who, as revealed in His word the Bible, created the heavens and the earth, and Who revealed Himself to Adam and Eve, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and dozens of others; the same God who spoke hundreds of years in advance about His coming in the flesh; the same God Who came as the son of the virgin Mary, Whose birth was attended by angels and shepherds, and Who grew up as Jesus the son of Joseph; the same God Who taught in Israel, Who healed the sick, and Who raised the dead; the same God Who suffered under Pontius Pilate, died on a Roman cross, and rose to life three days later; the same God Who revealed Himself to the Jews and Gentiles through the preaching of Peter, Paul, and others; the same God Who continues to draw all men to Himself, and the same God Who will judge all men at the end of the age.

I could many questions of you, but I will choose just one: by what standard do you call anything "immoral"?

Chester · Aug 3, 2019

First of all, you are wise to be honest and ask questions - I commend you for that - it shows deep character and depth of perception.

Secondly - Consider the evidence around you in Creation - what theory of beginning makes the most sense? Could a human person really come about by random, impersonal forces which came from a big bang explosion?

Thirdly - I wish I had more time to dialogue - but I don't right now - I will leave it to many other good people on this forum . . .

Nehemiah6 · Aug 3, 2019

Spectrox said:

To keep it short and simple:

What do you believe -- Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners

Why do you believe it -- Because God revealed it.

Atheist or not, whatever else you may think or believe, you cannot deny THE HISTORICAL FACT that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified by the Romans in AD 30.
Even AD (Anno Domini) -- in the year of our Lord -- confirms that as a historical fact.

If you wish to understand the spiritual significance of that, it is all spelled out in the Bible. Which means that you have absolutely no excuse to be an atheist.

notuptome · Aug 3, 2019

Spectrox said:

Truthfully speaking you do know you just don't like what you know.

Man is a sinner in Gods eyes and sin separates us from God. God has provided a means of reconciliation but again you find it offensive to your self image of righteousness.

God is not impressed with human reasoning. God requires acceptance of Christ as Savior or there is no forgiveness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

dcontroversal · Aug 3, 2019

Spectrox said:

To be honest.....a cursory read of the bible or a hit and miss read of the bible will at first sight seem to portray a disjointed collection that does not make sense and without a doubt is unbelievable unless the Spirit of God illuminates and reveals it as truth........the thing, if it can be called a thing, that brought home the validity of the word is found in the following truths concerning the makeup of the bible. I will also say that after almost 33 years of study.....my mind is solidified on the truth that GOD is indeed real, men are inherently corrupt and the conscience of man is that divine spark of morality that pricks and prods man of what is right and wrong.....it can be finely tuned and or suppressed and seared depending upon what man submits to.....

MY view on the bible is as follows...

THE BIBLE

This book is not the work of one man and or a Shakespearian play.....It was written over a period of 1600 years by some 40 odd authors. It contains the verbiage of Kings, priests, slaves, Roman soldiers, tax collectors, fishermen, thieves, Pharaohs, the rich, the poor, lepers, demon possessed, angels, Satan and every other gambit of human background. It accurately predicts the rise and fall of world kingdoms and even names the leaders of some centuries or more in advance of their coming and exactly what they would do in their reign. It is full of overwhelming proof of divine influence and even speaks to modern flight, modern weapons, nuclear war, genetics, more than 4 dimensions, modern mathematics, medicine, astronomy, and has hundreds of prophetic utterances that have come to pass exactly as they were given without error.

Not only does it contain narrative, but it also contains allegory, metaphor, symbolic, prophecy, parables, poetry, acrostic psalms, prayers, and the words of a donkey while being written in four languages (some Chaldean in Daniel and Aramaic in Matthew) and containing language beyond human comprehension.

ABOVE all....It contains the divine words of the one true God concerning the human condition and the eternal destinies of men based upon said choices in this life I.E. a person's destiny is sealed based upon their acceptance and or rejection of the irrevocable gift of life found in Christ.

What I have said here does not even scratch the surface concerning the validity of the word and the value without price that can be placed upon the pages and pages of wisdom that can be gleaned from the truth found therein.....it is tragic that men devalue it to the mere works of men which states multitudes about their bias, reckless abandon and lack of honest evaluation.

Limey410v2 · Aug 3, 2019

I believe in God because I have a personal and interactive relationship with Him. He has revealed Himself to me in a number of ways. Those of course, and as always, are very difficult to understand, prove and explain.

I can only offer you the claim that I personally have.

You will, I suppose have to get your own claim for you to understand or fully believe and accept Him.

I cannot convince an Atheist to believe, in the same fashion an Atheist will never convince me to "unbeleive:"

Good luck to you in your quest for knowledge, and try to be aware that He has called you to Himself, and it is your choice and right to refuse Him.

Waggles · Aug 3, 2019

Spectrox said:

You can have a personal relationship with God directly with all the evidence you need.
God dwelling in you and your spirit connected with God.
You can enjoy the power and presence of God in your life, and enjoy many miracles, healings (for yourself and others) and
much answered prayer > blessings.
God will even give you a spiritual tongue to pray directly to Heaven to build up and to reward your faith and your walk.
You can receive the Holy Spirit of God - the Spirit of truth who will teach you about walking in righteousness and open your eyes
to understanding the Word of God.

I am writing about being a Pentecostal Christian.
For it is in the Pentecostal faith and life that we have in our churches numerous testimonies to being converted by the baptism
of the Holy Spirit and first, how our lives dramatically changed for the better; second, to miracles, healings and blessings.
The God of truth enables a true worshipper to experience his truth and power.

http://revivalfellowship.uk/

Waggles · Aug 3, 2019

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him,
for he dwells with you and will be in you.
18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your
remembrance all that I have said to you.
John 14: (ESV)
26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father,
he will bear witness about me.
John 15: (ESV)
4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which,
he said, “you heard from me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea
and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Acts 1: (ESV)
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons,
by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
Romans 8:

MattforJesus · Aug 3, 2019

Spectrox said:

I do not believe in evolution for I believe a higher power created all things for it is the only thing that makes sense to me.

God said that the creation testifies of a higher power, and of His attributes that He is intelligent, powerful, and love, for He provided food, and the means to make clothing, and shelter, so the world is without excuse.

Which covers the 2 greatest laws, love God, and love people, which love is the fulfilling of God's law, which is how a Christian is saved, although there are many hypocrites.

But the Bible says that there would be many hypocrites at the end time, and the Lord knows them that are His that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from sin.

But in a great house there are some to honor, and some to dishonor, and if the ones to dishonor do right then they are a vessel unto honor.

But many people judge Christianity on the behavior of people, but hypocrites do not change Christianity, nor do they void it out, for it is the same no matter how people act.

And Jesus said the hypocrites do not belong to Him, and do not belong to the Church.

So I do not believe in evolution but creation testifies that a higher power created all things, which is how people that have not heard the word of God will be judged by their belief in a higher power, and their conscience, and love towards people.

But God says in the Bible to bring forth your strong reasons, and prove that your religion and god is true by showing the end from the beginning.

Which God told us the whole history of mankind, and all 7 kingdoms that would be on earth Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Roman Empire, and the next kingdom to come is the 10 horn kingdom the world split in to 10 sections with a leader in each section, which America, Mexico, and Canada will be one nation, and the arguing over the wall is probably the solution is tear down the border as well as Canada, problem solved for they are one nation now.

And then the man of sin, New Age Christ will be the 8th king when the nations are together who will deceive all people who do not love God to follow the beast kingdom, and when they take the mark of the beast, which is the microchip linked to satellite, then God can end this sin business on earth.

For God has to end this sin business on earth one day, and the book of Revelation is a warning to the world to get right with God to escape the beast kingdom to come in the future.

God warns us of the new age movement that will come out at the latter times, the last days of the last days, that have a false interpretation of the Bible based on the occult, and evolution, and believe people can still evolve to be greater, and spiritual, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior, but a good teacher, and evolved to be an ascended master and avatar, and they do not acknowledge a personal God, but honor the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher in the evolutionary process.

The Bible says the time will come when the world will not endure the truth of the Bible but want to hear the Bible according to the new age movement when the nations come together to try to establish peace on earth.

The new age movement is the future for this sinful world, and will pave the way to the beast kingdom, where all people who do not love God will follow the New Age Christ.

The new age movement is the beginning of the end for the wicked, and it is here now.

On the back of the dollar bill, announcing the conception of a New Order of the Ages, and out of many one.

When the nations come together they will forbid to marry for a man and a woman for population reduction, and command to abstain from meats, nature worship.

Why do you think they are pushing for the acceptance of homosexuality, making people believe they are born gay, transgender, trying to drive a wedge between men and women, and took prayer out of school, and taught evolution, and pushing for being a vegan.

And many nations are in this together, but they are abiding their time.

And controlled conflict brings about controlled change.

The Pope getting along with Islam for they are stubborn, and the Arab nations will come together with the world.

There is many things to say but God told us about all that is going to happen at this time that the nations will come together and try to establish peace on earth the world being split in to 10 sections with a leader in each section, going by the new age movement unified religious system with all religions interpreted by them based on evolution, and anything taught contrary will not be tolerated, and a hate crime.

Islam clashing with the world, a terrible war for one third of the population dies mainly in the Arab nations as they pluck them up by the roots, nuclear weapons, which they do not turn to God, so He gives them the New Age Christ to rule over them and he deceives all people who do not love God, and then the world goes against all people who follow God, and have the testimony of Jesus as Lord and Savior, then the saints are gathered unto Jesus, and the He comes back with all the saints, and defeats the world, and saves Israel.

Which all Jews will be back on their land for the New Age Christ established peace in the Middle East, and the Gentile nations came together, so the Gentile nations caused all the Jews to go to Israel, and the New Age Christ wants them all there.

I do not believe in evolution for I do not believe there is any way for all things to come about that way.

And God understands the workings of physical matter, and can use it to form whatever He creates.

Also if it is evolution things would not be so organized, and complex, and if evolution means survival of the fittest, and to always go forward, and build up, not tear down, then that would be instilled in our brain, and we could not go against that.

But some people are drug addicts, smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, do not eat good, do not exercise, do crimes that could land them in jail, doing things that could hurt them, bad habits that do not build up, but tear down, which is contrary to what evolution is about.

Continued,

MattforJesus · Aug 3, 2019

Continued,

And I have read through the Bible and believe it is true for it makes sense and God already told us all things that would happen at this time, as well as throughout history, which prophesy testifies that the God of the Bible is true, and He said no person or religion will be able to do the same.

And for people that think that God is cruel, or a warmonger it is not true.

God said that all wars do not come from Him but from people the lust of their flesh, and natural disasters are not coming from God, but as the world gets more sinful the more their world will spew out natural disasters in relation to that, and people are more sinful today than in the past, and it is people that causes the chaos on earth.

Which the Bible says the last generation before Jesus gets His people that the children will curse their father, and will not bless their mother, and be pure in their own eyes but not be washed from their filthiness, and highly selfish, and highly arrogant, and aggressive towards each other.

And they will devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men, which they be so obsessed with heaping money to themselves all in an attempt to exalt themselves that they will not care about the poor and needy.

And we see that today where millions of dollars and billions of dollars is not enough for them, and this could of not happened before technology, because it is technology that caused the world to know about each other, and caused money, and material things to flow like a raging river, so they can branch out more, and reach more people to make money than in the past having a limited distance to make money.

And God was not cruel in the Old Testament, but He had to protect Israel for the nations would of perverted her, or wiped her out, and Jesus was coming from the nation of Israel.

God said He winked at their ignorance in the Old Testament, but if they were perverting people from the truth, or being very cruel to people all the time, then God allowed other nations to take them down.

But basically God left people alone unless Israel was in the truth then He would let no one go against her, but when Israel went astray for a certain amount of years He would allow nations to punish her because she did not have His protection being disobedient.

If God did not intervene in the Old Testament more people would of been perverted from the truth which is the true benefit to be right with God, and more people would of been hurt, or killed.

God puts down 1000 to save 10,000, and God is not cruel, man is cruel, for God is not a warmonger only doing what is best for the benefit for people so in the Old Testament He had to allow certain nations to fall for the benefit of the people.

Which king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon acknowledged the God of Israel as the greatest God of the gods, and because of that his kingdom flourished greater than any other Gentile kingdom on earth, and is referred to as gold, and rode on eagle's wings, but they blew it, and God gave the kingdom to the Medes and Persians.

America acknowledges the God of Israel but the Bible says they too will blow it giving over to evolution as religion for they will come together with all the nations.

God already told us everything that is going to happen, and it is happening.

And God said do not believe science so falsely called but it is all part of the deception that is going on today.

reneweddaybyday · Aug 3, 2019

Spectrox said:

I believe you are confused.

Reason: you have identified yourself as -

"I am an agnostic"

Agnostic - a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

So you won't claim faith in God, nor will you claim disbelief in God ... perhaps your unwillingness to claim disbelief in God is due to a hope that God is ... and that God is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein?

"I am an atheist"

Atheist - a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods

In your OP, you did not specifically state that you do not believe God is. You only stated that some "atheists and ex-Christians" whispered in your ear and then "things in the Bible stopped making sense to [you]".

It appears you were not well grounded when these "atheists and ex-Christians" got ahold of you. Sad to say that this happens to a lot of people who were "brought up in the Church" as you claim you were. It appears that you may have sat in a pew in a church while a sermon was taught by someone you never knew personally.

You never really developed a relationship with God and, therefore, you were easily turned from God by some "atheists and ex-Christians".

"I used to be a Christian"

Not really sure if you mean that you were born again because you really don't say you were. A lot of people say they are "Christian" and they are not born again. Sad, really.

"I now consider myself to be an ex-Christian"

okay.

Welcome to Christian Chat. Hope/pray you learn truth and find your way back to God.

CharliRenee · Aug 3, 2019

I urge you to come as you are, humble and repentant, ready to believe and receive His Amazing Grace.

It will be the best thing you have ever done or will ever do, not only for yourself but for everyone you ever come across. He loves you so much that even His very words can bring you joy and rejoicing. The Lord of Host is calling you. The creator of everything, the very one that gives you the breath of life is eager to dwell within. How beyond awesome is that...VERY!!!

He is the way, the truth, and the life. I am praying for you.

Much love in Christ.

p_rehbein · Aug 4, 2019

Spectrox said:

I originally posted this message in the New Member Intro section but a member said I should post it here. So here goes...

Colloquially speaking I am an agnostic as I don't know whether or not a god exists. Technically I am an atheist as I don't believe any god claim I have heard. Although I used to be a Christian. I was brought up in the Church of England but properly self-identified as a Christian in my twenties and believed I was saved. I had my doubts after several months as a result of speaking to atheists and ex-Christians. Some things in the Bible stopped making sense to me. Some of the Bible was immoral, some of it was inconsistent and some of it was not credible. I prayed for answers but no answers came. I now consider myself to be an ex-Christian. Every so often I like to challenge my beliefs as I think it is healthy. In that spirit I would like to ask all Christians here what do you believe and why do you believe it?

PFISHING ARE WE?

(goodness..............)

Magenta · Aug 4, 2019

Hello Spectrox

I welcomed you earlier in the Introductory Forum, but welcome you once again

There is much that could be said in answer to your question, for opinions and experiences abound. In the end, it does come down to a personal knowing, which the agnostic view claims is not possible. So it would seem you may have to stop identifying as an agnostic, according to the full definition of agnosticism, and stick with identifying as an atheist, even though that sounds harsher, being that it is essentially a categorical outright denial that there is a God.

I believe atheists and agnostics are confused and in rebellion against God. I came to this belief after conversing with them online almost exclusively over a period of eight years before I became a member here. I also believe it to be true because although I never identified as an agnostic or atheist before my conversion, I understand the condition I was in prior to my conversion quite well from a Biblical point of view. (It is also stated in various ways in Scripture

)

I also believe that though you may think you are open minded and believe you can discuss Christian beliefs in a respectful manner, your natural aversion to accepting the things Christians tell you will inevitably cause you to resist all the more that which you are being told. It rarely ends well for an atheist in such a Christian environment, perhaps especially true for those who came out of a religious upbringing devoid of belief. Why? Because atheists and agnostics largely believe: that Christians are brainwashed and cannot think for themselves; that Christians are irrational, and believe in imaginary things; that Christians lack logic; that Christians are inferior in intellect to anyone who lives by what they accept modern science, facts, and intellect alone, can prove.

So where is the solution? That is your dilemma. You want to look outside yourself for answers but probably cannot accept the things you come against that are at odds with your already formed world view.

I want to ask you if you believe there is a Spiritual realm. Agnostics and atheists often deny such a thing. Have you had any experiences you would describe as Spiritual? And, when was the last time you prayed? What else are you doing in your search for truth in this regard?

I do suggest you get down on your knees to pray, and humbly ask God to reveal Himself to you, for He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. You may not realize that the atheist/agnostic position stems from pride. It would be best if you were involved in some community where you are supported in your seeking after truth. Do you have any such support groups? They may be more helpful to you than you can know at this point.

maxwel · Aug 4, 2019

Spectrox said:

How does someone become an ex-Christian?

"I had my doubts after several months as a result of speaking to atheists and ex-Christians"

This is the problem.
You wanted to leave the faith, so you went ONLY to those people who would make arguments AGAINST it.
You did NOT go to people who could make arguments FOR it.

I hear this from people all the time.
It is very disingenuous.

You ALREADY wanted to leave the faith, so you went looking for excuses... you went only to people who would give arguments against Christianity to soothe your conscience.

Happens every day.

I have NEVER heard an ex-Christian say, "I was having doubts, so I read books by Christian scholars and apologists who could give me good, solid, scholarly, Christian answers."
I have NEVER heard ANY ex-Christian say that.

Because that isn't what they want.
People who leave the faith do so because they WANT to leave the faith - and because they WANT to leave the faith, they go LOOKING for arguments AGAINST it to justify themselves.

When they go looking ONLY for arguments AGAINST God, guess what?
They find some.
Shocker.
If they LOOKED for arguments FOR Christianity, and for logical answers to DEFEND the faith... they would find that instead.

Ex-Christians NEVER start by looking for good, logical, Christian answers to their questions.
They don't want good Christian answers... they don't want proofs for the existence of God, or logical Christian explanations.
They look only for arguments against God, because that is the only thing they desire.

I hear this stuff every single day.

It's very common, and very predictable.

..

maxwel · Aug 4, 2019

I was having doubts, so I read...

I have heard so many ex-Christians say, "I was having doubts, so I was reading on some atheist websites and..."

Wait.
What?
What?
You, as a believer, were looking for answers where?
Where?

No genuine believer looks for answers to his questions on atheist websites.
No genuine believer EVER looks for answers in places like that.

A genuine believer knows perfectly well that the only thing unbelievers will propound is unbelief.

NOBODY goes to an atheist website for answers unless they want to hear atheist answers which rail against God.
That is not something genuine believes do.

The moral to the story:
Anytime you hear an "ex-Christian" say, "I was having doubts so I was reading on an atheist website"... just move on.
This person intentionally went to a place where he'd ONLY hear arguments AGAINST God.
He never looked for arguments FOR God... it wasn't what he wanted.
So just be polite, ignore his blustering, and move on.
.

maxwel · Aug 4, 2019

Difference between Assessment and Response:

We can talk to these people politely,
but we need to assess them keenly and sharply.

Assess a thing correctly, for what it is.
It is what it is.

Then, go ahead and be polite.
But at least you know what you're dealing with... you aren't being fooled.

...

Journeyman · Aug 4, 2019

Spectrox said:

I believe what the Bible says, which is different from what you think it says.

I believe it because I sincerely prayed to God for help and received it.

As my testimony goes, I was a drug addict. I didn't know anything about God, except for hearing that there is a God. One night, I cried myself to sleep asking God for help. I was near the end of my rope. I said I didn't even know if he was real, but if he would help me I would follow him.
As I was leaving for work the next day, my car wouldn't start. Wouldn't even crank over, like a dead battery. I started hitching to work and a car picked me up. During the ride, a girl named Mary asked me if I knew Jesus. Before dropping me off at work, she asked if she could have my address to talk with me about the Lord.
After work, the bartender gave me a ride home. Before I went into my apartment, I looked over at my car. I went over to it and put the key in the ignition. It started.
Mary taught me a lot about Jesus.

Locoponydirtman · Aug 4, 2019

You are obviously still being delt with by the Holy Spirit, or you wouldn't be asking questions.
That being said, I don't believe in revivalism. In other words there are no arguments that we can make to either strum your emotions, or stimulate your intellect that will cause you to make a decision for Christ. Either you will submit to the work of the Holy Spirit, or you will reinforce you own will against him.
You know the truth, that mankind is desperately evil, selfish, and wicked. You have full access to the Gospel. That God stepped into his creation to rectify the problem himself.

What do you believe and why do you believe it?

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