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Ruby123
Guest
I think that I will reach 60 yrs of age (if the Lord does not return beforehand) and this thread will still be going round and round in circles
Not By Works
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Been going on since cain and abel. Will continue until the end I am sure.I think that I will reach 60 yrs of age (if the Lord does not return beforehand) and this thread will still be going round and round in circles
Abraham, did not just believe and sit, he took a knife, bound his son and was ready to slaughter. All these is works.
James 2:20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless d ? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” e and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
I think that I will reach 60 yrs of age (if the Lord does not return beforehand) and this thread will still be going round and round in circles
You know Ruby.....this thread has had numerous wonderful events.....
a. It has weeded out of CC several deceivers (numerously banned members)
b. Covered about 40+ different topics
c. Opened the eyes of at least 20 people (all contacted me or stated openly they have had their eyes opened)
d. Stands against numerous false gospels with no power to save a flea, much less a man
e. Solidified the faith of many
f. Etc.
I will keep swinging until the internet fails, the U.S. is destroyed, I go to be with the Lord or CC locks it...........ONE more is worth the effort
Abraham was justified by FAITH LONG before that event.....take the bible for once in your life and actually study it and HEAR what it states!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your conflation of two events to peddle a works based justification before GOD is not from the bible
What's wrong with this clear part of the bible?
James 2:20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless d ? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” e and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
I see that you still don't get it.
Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.In James 2:20, "faith without deeds/works is useless/dead" does not mean that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. *James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally accounted as righteous/saved based on merits of his works AFTER he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. ONCE AGAIN, Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, ONCE AGAIN James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
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UnderGrace
Guest
I think that I will reach 60 yrs of age (if the Lord does not return beforehand) and this thread will still be going round and round in circles
Actually I do not think the thread goes "round and round in circles" it actually is a single point ..... "Not By Works"
The only people who reason in circles, sadly, are those who object to the single point and cannot understand it.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I had to see who you were talking too.. Good luck!!
Jive that with the following and like I said....YOU are conflating two issues, ignoring CONTEXT and peddling a conflated false gospel
What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Therefore, we conclude that Abraham was justified by faith without the works/deeds of the law.
HAHAHAHHA I hear ya..........it would take the entire "LUCK of the IRISH", 50 million 4 leaf clovers and 100 million lucky rabbit's feet and then the odds are slim to none......
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Ruby123
Guest
Yeah I get what you mean and it is worth defending the truth but some just refuse to listen.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Pride gets in the way
When your gospel is based on pride to begin with, That pride must be broken before they can see..
Thats why the pharisees could not see Christ, even though he fulfilled all he did, they should have recognized him first.
I see that you still don't get it.
In James 2:20, "faith without deeds/works is useless/dead" does not mean that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. *James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally accounted as righteous/saved based on merits of his works AFTER he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. ONCE AGAIN, Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, ONCE AGAIN James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
1. James wrote a letter to the church and there was no one to explain the letter, no Strong's Exhaustive Concordance; so James had to be clear and simple with his choice of words. But you are here trying to explain to me the letter and what James meant by 'justify' and what he did not mean.
When James penned these words down, he actually meant it
"..You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."
2. There's no such thing as "faith with evidential works"
Think about what you are saying for a minute. Faith is the assurance and hope for salvation.
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
If you give food to the needy because you hope for and are assured of salvation then the works are evidence of pride only. It is by love that you give.
James 2:20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless d ? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” e and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
You surely can not be mad at me.
You need to PROPERLY HARMONIZE SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE in order to reach the PROPER CONCLUSION ON DOCTRINE. Otherwise, you will just continue to pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by works.
Before God we are indeed justified by faith.
Before man, it takes works. Man can not see the heart like God can.
God is never surprised and does not require works to see He has started in someone.
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; ->But not before God.<-
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.
Are we saved by grace?
That would mean it is a gift and not based on merit....
If by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
That would mean it is a gift and not based on merit....
If by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.