Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[Nat2019]

If we practice sin we practice lawlessness.

1 John 3:4
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the
desires of the flesh.

There (is) sin that doesn't lead to death.

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

1 John 3:6-10
No one who abides in him (keeps on sinning); no one (who keeps on sinning) has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

*If we dont practice righteousness we are not of God.

Proverbs 28:13
Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy

*If we confess and forsake our sins we find mercy.

1 Peter 2:24 ESV / 78 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

*Christ died so we can die to sin and LIVE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS.

 

[BillG]

Hi Bill,

At least you are taking this subject seriously. This is a difficult point.
The prodigal son is based around israel and being born into the people of God.
Hebrews is talking about someone mature in Christ, knowing the fullness of the Holy Spirit and then
walking away.

My experience of people who fall away, is they are immature and barely know the realities of Christ.
Falling away often is a reality check about what is important to them and realising they are playing
at being a believer. Often when they return, it is because they want to, and the truths have become
profound and deeper in their hearts.

So I think on this basis both passages fit.
And those who truly walk away are rarer than we might imagine.
Our bigger issue is people who dabble in faith and compromise with sin and sinful lifestyles.

Hi FHS.

Yes I do take seriously. Particularly when there different theology is apparent.

Yes I agree the prodical is based around Israel. I know that, I'm not as thick as I look..

I don't think Hebrews Is addressing those who are mature, in fact the opposite.

Hebrews 5:12 - 6:1
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

But to tie one to other is not correct.
And you have made my point.

The person who connected the two did so to prove we can lose salvation.
The same person who said we can repent and by inference be saved again.

They are not connected verses to prove a theological position.

If you fall away and believe we can we cannot be renewed unto repentance.

What I take more seriously and personally is to accuse those in Jesus who have a particular theology that I AM TEACHING DISOBEDIENCE TO JESUS.

With no regards to asking what I think.

My experience of people who fall away, is they are immature and barely know the realities of Christ.
Falling away often is a reality check about what is important to them and realising they are playing
at being a believer. Often when they return, it is because they want to, and the truths have become
profound and deeper in their hearts.

Now I get the above quote and it relates to the post I made that the passage in Hebrews is not addressing mature belivers as you said.
So we have immature belivers who returned.

If that's the case then the rest of the verses are irrelevant?
They have not fallen away, because if they had they would not be able to be restored.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Yep along with accusing us of teaching people to disobey Jesus.

Call them out and they do not answer.

Hi Bill,

You are falling for a simple distortion of what the issue is.
The ways of God are simple. Sin is harmful to ourselves and others.
It is actions that damage society, families, groups and leads to death.

God was unbelievably specific about what He considered sin and wrote
it in the laws. Not a summary but detail specifics with a whole civil structure
to deal with disputes and problems.

Now those who accuse those who care for love and walking righteously as being
legalists are opposing obedience, repentance, and faithfulness to our God the King.

Some groups claim following the sermon on the mount is evil and anything that
brings us into conviction of sin, is satan condemning the believer.

Those who love Jesus and His law written on their hearts simply know this is wrong.
Love and evil do not live together, and His Holy Spirit works against unrighteousness.
If I or anyone says those who come preaching love and walking in obedience to Jesus
are evil, then those who preach such are teaching disobeying Jesus is fine.

This is one of those, if you oppose the Holy Spirit you are not following our Lord.
The lost will always end up here, but I always pray and hope people will listen to His
love and truth, Amen.

 

[BillG]

Odd, but I think I know what it stems from...

Well please tell me.

Because I have been told a few times by one person that is what I do.
Even though I have never said I did or do.
Asked a few times for proof but no response.

 

[BillG]

Hi Bill,

You are falling for a simple distortion of what the issue is.
The ways of God are simple. Sin is harmful to ourselves and others.
It is actions that damage society, families, groups and leads to death.

God was unbelievably specific about what He considered sin and wrote
it in the laws. Not a summary but detail specifics with a whole civil structure
to deal with disputes and problems.

Now those who accuse those who care for love and walking righteously as being
legalists are opposing obedience, repentance, and faithfulness to our God the King.

Some groups claim following the sermon on the mount is evil and anything that
brings us into conviction of sin, is satan condemning the believer.

Those who love Jesus and His law written on their hearts simply know this is wrong.
Love and evil do not live together, and His Holy Spirit works against unrighteousness.
If I or anyone says those who come preaching love and walking in obedience to Jesus
are evil, then those who preach such are teaching disobeying Jesus is fine.

This is one of those, if you oppose the Holy Spirit you are not following our Lord.
The lost will always end up here, but I always pray and hope people will listen to His
love and truth, Amen.

Mate I will always walk with people encourage to be like Jesus.

No more or no less.

I'm happy with that.
I know the reality of how people walk, what messes up that walk.

I will continue with that.

Jesus said "If you love me"

People need to understand that Jesus loves them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If we practice sin we practice lawlessness.

1 John 3:4
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Galatians 5:16
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the
desires of the flesh.

There (is) sin that doesn't lead to death.

1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

1 John 3:6-10
No one who abides in him (keeps on sinning); no one (who keeps on sinning) has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

*If we dont practice righteousness we are not of God.

Proverbs 28:13
Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy

*If we confess and forsake our sins we find mercy.

1 Peter 2:24 ESV / 78 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

*Christ died so we can die to sin and LIVE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS.

1 john 3: 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

When are you going to realise. Whoever practices sin has never seen God or known him. And that those truly saved can not practice sin?

So your preaching against unbelievers, not believers.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Hi FHS.

Yes I do take seriously. Particularly when there different theology is apparent.

Yes I agree the prodical is based around Israel. I know that, I'm not as thick as I look..

I don't think Hebrews Is addressing those who are mature, in fact the opposite.

Hebrews 5:12 - 6:1
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

But to tie one to other is not correct.
And you have made my point.

The person who connected the two did so to prove we can lose salvation.
The same person who said we can repent and by inference be saved again.

They are not connected verses to prove a theological position.

If you fall away and believe we can we cannot be renewed unto repentance.

What I take more seriously and personally is to accuse those in Jesus who have a particular theology that I AM TEACHING DISOBEDIENCE TO JESUS.

With no regards to asking what I think.



Now I get the above quote and it relates to the post I made that the passage in Hebrews is not addressing mature belivers as you said.
So we have immature belivers who returned.

If that's the case then the rest of the verses are irrelevant?
They have not fallen away, because if they had they would not be able to be restored.

I will always regret when inexperienced people talk personally about positions when it is not
clear who stands were. But this comes from a good heart, when great hurt and desparation tore
their family apart. I know in part how this feels and have sympathy.

I am accused of many terrible things, but in Jesus I stand in love. Thankfully my enemies are Gods
hammer to beat me into His servant. What a King he uses everything, even those who would hate
us. God bless you brother

 

[BillG]

Mate I will always walk with people encourage to be like Jesus.

No more or no less.

I'm happy with that.
I know the reality of how people walk, what messes up that walk.

I will continue with that.

Jesus said "If you love me"

People need to understand that Jesus loves them.

When you get a chance give me your thoughts on my post 2502

 

[Nat2019]

GOOD WORKS GLORIFY GOD

Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your "good works" and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for "good works", which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Hebrews 13:16
(Do not neglect to do good) and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him (by their works). They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any (good work).

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for (good works).

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and (good works)

Titus 3:8
The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to (good works). These things are excellent and profitable for people.

Titus 2:7
Show yourself in all respects to be a model of (good works), and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every (good work),

 

[BillG]

Hi everyone.

I'm going to bed now.

My wife and I celebrate 25 years of marriage tomorrow.

We have a bottle of champers in the fridge.

We will sit on the decking in the evening when I get back from work and enjoy it.

With finger food.

Father bless you all.

May we all remember that God loves us as much as he loves Jesus.

When we get that then we can be freed to walk in this love.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Mate I will always walk with people encourage to be like Jesus.

No more or no less.

I'm happy with that.
I know the reality of how people walk, what messes up that walk.

I will continue with that.

Jesus said "If you love me"

People need to understand that Jesus loves them.

You did not answer my point about opposing the righteous.
If you believe none are cleansed and righteous, I know where you stand.

We have though a problem with Paul saying we are temples of the Holy Spirit then.

 

[Nat2019]

You did not answer my point about opposing the righteous.
If you believe none are cleansed and righteous, I know where you stand.

We have though a problem with Paul saying we are temples of the Holy Spirit then.

God bless goodnight

 

[BillG]

You did not answer my point about opposing the righteous.
If you believe none are cleansed and righteous, I know where you stand.

We have though a problem with Paul saying we are temples of the Holy Spirit then.

Sorry didn't see it or maybe overlooked it as I was looking for the attack.

We are cleansed and are righteous as a result of Jesus.
Therefore we walk in that as temples of the Holy Spirit.
That's our calling.
Does our own righteous save us.
I would say no.
If it did then why would Jesus have to die?

 

[dcontroversal]

No one talks against works my friend

What people are against is those who claims works are required to

1. Get saved

2. Keep saved

3. Prevent us from losing salvation.

You want to talk about works. Count me in, Works produce fruit, and draw people to christ. I am all vfor works.

But self righteousness, I am against as are many people here

Exactly......the result of salvation and NOT for or to maintain salvation........and regardless......works of wood, hay and stubble are NOT indicative of righteous works and end up being burnt to a crisp and yet the one producing said works is STILL SAVED........

NOT by works of righteousness which we HAVE DONE, but according to his mercy HAS HE SAVED US......It does not get any clearer than that

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Unfortunate compromise

Some middle ground people appease both sides of a discussion by just complementing them
and sympathising with the blows taken, while not actually addressing the issue.

The excuse is being nice is better than declaring ones faith or position.
The difficulty is if the faith position creates the behaviour as its fruit.

If one cannot deal with sin and openly tackle how to confront sin in a congregation or in ones
own life, there is no Holy people or pure testimony of victory and love in His people.

The problem is compromising with wolves who intend harm and damage to others through
barraging and abuse, just encourages them that they are speaking the truth.
A believer cannot be a follower of Jesus and be an evil deceiver. It is this simple.

So one has to be very careful with those who use such language and rip into people without
an obvious doctrinal and behaviour basis as witnessed by two or three others.

 

[BillG]

God bless goodnight

I thought you had gone to slumberland as we say over here.

I'm going to bed now.

If it's daytime where you are God bless your day.

Bill

 

[fredoheaven]

Proverbs 30:5
Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him

Hi Nat,

1 Thess. 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Question is are you taking your refuge in him? Meaning are you taking God's way of salvation? or are you helping God to do and own salvation?

2 Chronicles 20:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the Lord with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the Lord will be with you.

 

[dcontroversal]

What I find interesting is that assume or say we can lose our salvation can get it back.

How to get it back.

The prodical son.

Luke 15:18-19
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.” ’

He repented and was therefore saved again.

Yet this is how we lose it.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Yet Hebrews says if they fall away it's impossible to renew them again to repentance.

A few on here have quoted Luke & Hebrews to make their point.

The fact is that you cannot use the prodical son and the passage in Hebrews to make a point.

If we can lose our salvation by falling away we cannot be restored to salvation according to Hebrews. Therefore the prodical parable is irrelevant.

Bill....the very argument they make falls apart with the Prodigal SON......they say he lost it, came back and was received....HEBREWS states clearly that IF it was possible to LOSE IT, it cannot be regained.......and they also LIKE to use JUDAS as a primo example even though there is NO indicate he was EVER saved and evidence that he was LOST the whole time.......A devil from the beginning, THE SON of perdition, NEVER clean etc.....does not describe a man that was saved and lost it.......

The whole premise of losing salvation is based upon skewed scriptures and context while disregarding ALL the verses which state it is impossible....such as the word IRREVOCABLE being applied to the GIFTS and CALLING of GOD.......

GOD calls us, JUSTIFIES us, SAVES US, SEALS US, SANCTIFIES us positionally by faith and GIVES US THE GIFT of eternal LIFE <---IRREVOCABLE

 

[dcontroversal]

You can warn me a thousand times my friend

Your warnings are meaningless.

YOUR THE ONE causing division by your constant LIES about OSAS people.

My conscience is clear. God knows what is happening. Your argument is with God not me my friend.

You have been warned twice now.....I bet your shaking in your boots.......cough cough....HAHHHAHAHA what a joke

 

[BillG]

I will always regret when inexperienced people talk personally about positions when it is not
clear who stands were. But this comes from a good heart, when great hurt and desparation tore
their family apart. I know in part how this feels and have sympathy.

I am accused of many terrible things, but in Jesus I stand in love. Thankfully my enemies are Gods
hammer to beat me into His servant. What a King he uses everything, even those who would hate
us. God bless you brother

Sad fact is bro that our enemies are those who are fellow brothers/sisters in Jesus.

Believers are very good at taking a hammer to each other rather than build each other up.

Shooting the wounded and it does my head in.