Faith is a work.

[garee]

Have you got one really good scripture for that statement.

They are all really good as it is written. It representing the faith that comes from hearing God alone. Again as it is written the one source of Christian faith coming from God by which they can believe. Previously having none. (no faith) Not little, none. .

It being the work of God that we have in these bodies of death as we are yoked with him. . . he works in us to both will and perform his good pleasure. We are to do so without murmuring. and reminds us he will not forget the good works we have offered towards his name.

No faith. . . natural unconverted mankind, the evil froward generation that must walk after the temporal . . what the eyes see>>>.

Deuteronomy 32:20And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
.

 

[garee]

But I do not believe a man able to bear fruit (good deed in God standard) without have faith in Jesus

I believe abide in Him mean have faith in Him

The direction of the two different sources of faith can get confused. (in towards the source and of coming from )The things of men seen and those of God not seen .The things of men offend those of God.

I would agree we are to have faith towards God but in all cases he must do the first works by working in us as a work of His faith also called a labor of His love. Then having been given a understanding of faith we can seek in return or response and have or new faith in or towards Him.

Hebrews 6 King James Version (KJV) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Those would be those who chase after what they call sign gifts as signa nd wonderment gospel .Not a biblical teaching.

Spiritual gifts not seen gifts of faith working in us, not sign gifts .Signs (outward) are for those who believe not prophecy.

The faith we offer towards him in ceremonial laws are considered dead works .They are shadows of the good things to come. Tasting shadows as sign gifts is a false wonderments. It shows a person did not receive the faith of (coming from) hearing God prophecy.

That faith which is considered dead has to with us towards or believing in Him. It is the work of God not seen that we can believe. No God no belief.. faith

Philippians 3:8-10 King James Version (KJV) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Not of oneself.

Above it show first things first.. we cannot have faith in (towards) Christ unless he first gives us his faith of or from Him to make it possible to believe Him . having that faith in respect to oneself is called blasphemy in James 2:7

 

[PS]

..... It being the work of God that we have in these bodies of death as we are yoked with him. . . he works in us to both will and perform his good pleasure. We are to do so without murmuring. and reminds us he will not forget the good works we have offered towards his name.

No faith. . . natural unconverted mankind, the evil froward generation that must walk after the temporal . . what the eyes see>>>.

Deuteronomy 32:20And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Finally, you are getting there. It is the work of God. We do not have to earn our salvation.

 

[PS]

If you feel that way, then be confident enough to state that you believe salvation is Faith AND works. Don't try to have your cake and eat it.

See post #383 We do not have to earn our salvation by works.

 

[Jackson123]

If you define faith like that to include following his commands. Then I understand why you don't see the argument as circular.

How about making things simple, faith is believing in Jesus DBR. Works is following what he commands.

Then to you, salvation is faith AND works, like what John Wesley would propose.

Base on grammar, believe it self is a verb, so believe consider work.

Paul and Martin Luther say salvation by faith alone not by work.

I believe, for Paul, to respon his disagreement to Jews teaching that salvation by animal sacrifice, and all ritual

For Martin Luther, I. Respon his disagreement to the Catholic Church on her teaching salvation by baptism sacrament, buy forgiveness certuficate and all manipulation.

For grammar standpoint,

I believe Jesus

Believe is verb

So the sentence : I believe Jesus ~ I drive a car ride



> I am doing something

Consider work

But consider the context Paul and Martin defined the word work as religious ritual/manipulation religious ritual

 

[Beckworth]

If you feel that way, then be confident enough to state that you believe salvation is Faith AND works. Don't try to have your cake and eat it.

According to James 2:22 that is exactly what it is—faith and works together. “...Faith was working TOGETHER WITH HIS WORKS AND BY WORKS FAITH WAS MADE PERFECT. “

That’s why he says “not by faith only” in verse 24. And that’s why his example of Abraham shows him DOING something, offering Issac. It’s an example of faith and works working together. Wesley almost had it right. If he could have just left out the faith only part.
QUOTE="Guojing, post: 3975461, member: 279765"]If you feel that way, then be confident enough to state that you believe salvation is Faith AND works. Don't try to have your cake and eat it. [/QUOTE]

 

[Jackson123]

The direction of the two different sources of faith can get confused. (in towards the source and of coming from )The things of men seen and those of God not seen .The things of men offend those of God.

I would agree we are to have faith towards God but in all cases he must do the first works by working in us as a work of His faith also called a labor of His love. Then having been given a understanding of faith we can seek in return or response and have or new faith in or towards Him.

Hebrews 6 King James Version (KJV) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Those would be those who chase after what they call sign gifts as signa nd wonderment gospel .Not a biblical teaching.

Spiritual gifts not seen gifts of faith working in us, not sign gifts .Signs (outward) are for those who believe not prophecy.

The faith we offer towards him in ceremonial laws are considered dead works .They are shadows of the good things to come. Tasting shadows as sign gifts is a false wonderments. It shows a person did not receive the faith of (coming from) hearing God prophecy.

That faith which is considered dead has to with us towards or believing in Him. It is the work of God not seen that we can believe. No God no belief.. faith

Philippians 3:8-10 King James Version (KJV) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Not of oneself.

Above it show first things first.. we cannot have faith in (towards) Christ unless he first gives us his faith of or from Him to make it possible to believe Him . having that faith in respect to oneself is called blasphemy in James 2:7

I get 2 thing in this post

1. You believe faith is a gift. So God only chose a certain person for this gift.

Seem to me you are part of predestination group.

What I believe is

God invite every body to believe in Him.

John3:16 say whosoever believe will be save

To me the word whosoever mean open for everybody.

2. You quote Hebrew 6 for those that has been enlighment and taste heavenly gift then backslash


Seem to me you believe salvation can be lose. Am I correct?

 

[Beckworth]

Methodists generally believe that the initial salvation is by faith alone apart from works. But after that, works are necessary for justification. I guess you have not interacted with many of them?

A number of them placed a premium on water baptism, so you will find yourself a home among them

But if I understand their doctrine, they practice sprinkling instead of immersion, right?

 

[Guojing]

See post #383 We do not have to earn our salvation by works.

Right, since we don’t have to earn it with works, we also don’t have to maintain it with works.

Consistency requires you to believe both points. Do you accept that?

 

[Guojing]

Base on grammar, believe it self is a verb, so believe consider work.

Paul and Martin Luther say salvation by faith alone not by work.

I believe, for Paul, to respon his disagreement to Jews teaching that salvation by animal sacrifice, and all ritual

For Martin Luther, I. Respon his disagreement to the Catholic Church on her teaching salvation by baptism sacrament, buy forgiveness certuficate and all manipulation.

For grammar standpoint,

I believe Jesus

Believe is verb

So the sentence : I believe Jesus ~ I drive a car ride



> I am doing something

Consider work

But consider the context Paul and Martin defined the word work as religious ritual/manipulation religious ritual

Yes, believe is definitely a verb, an action we must do.

Now if you agree that is the only work we need to do to be saved and stay saved, then we agree on the same principle of salvation.

 

[Guojing]

But if I understand their doctrine, they practice sprinkling instead of immersion, right?

Yes many of them are sprinkled because they don’t insist on full immersion.

But I am sure if you insist they do it, they will make arrangements.

 

[garee]

Finally, you are getting there. It is the work of God. We do not have to earn our salvation.

That was my point from the beginning. we are not to have the faith of Christ that comes from hearing God in repsect to our own selves or others.To do so is to blaphemt the name we are called by.


James 2 King James Version (KJV) My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

I get 2 thing in this post

1. You believe faith is a gift. So God only chose a certain person for this gift.

Seem to me you are part of predestination group.

What I believe is

God invite every body to believe in Him.

John3:16 say whosoever believe will be save

To me the word whosoever mean open for everybody.

2. You quote Hebrew 6 for those that has been enlighment and taste heavenly gift then backslash


Seem to me you believe salvation can be lose. Am I correct?

I would say salvation saves. . . destruction destroys.

As many as the father had given to the Son will come. They would be the whosoever believe they will come as the father draws them giving them the power to come they have receive to gift of faith. Previously having none (faith) by which they could believe God .

Hebrew 6 speaks of two groups . Those who offer dead works which they perform with their hands as ceremonial laws towards God. some call sign gifts And those beleive as a anchor to their souls having confidence in Christ and not there own selves as something they could do .Receiving the end of their faith from the beginning when they first heard and experienced His love.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, believe is definitely a verb, an action we must do.

Now if you agree that is the only work we need to do to be saved and stay saved, then we agree on the same principle of salvation.

Yep,

There are Work in grammar standpoint and work that Paul and Martin use to address manipulating teaching

Jews was teach ceremonial law, like animal sacrifice and all tradition save you

When Paul say salvation not by work, he meant, ceremonial law, not save you

When Martin say salvation by faith alone, he meant catholic manipulation teaching not save you

Both of them not against loving work as a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

But from grammar standpoint faith itself is a work.

Work in the sense of helping other, not save you, but when you save, Jesus in your heart manifest in the form of loving work

 

[Guojing]

When Paul say salvation not by work, he meant, ceremonial law, not save you

Oh you believe in this ceremonial law and not moral law?

Actually when Paul used the term law, he meant law as a composite whole, there is no separation. For instance, you can read Romans 7:7 to see that he also included the 10 commandments into the term "law".

 

[Jackson123]

That was my point from the beginning. we are not to have the faith of Christ that comes from hearing God in repsect to our own selves or others.To do so is to blaphemt the name we are called by.


James 2 King James Version (KJV) My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?


I would say salvation saves. . . destruction destroys.

As many as the father had given to the Son will come. They would be the whosoever believe they will come as the father draws them giving them the power to come they have receive to gift of faith. Previously having none (faith) by which they could believe God .

Hebrew 6 speaks of two groups . Those who offer dead works which they perform with their hands as ceremonial laws towards God. some call sign gifts And those beleive as a anchor to their souls having confidence in Christ and not there own selves as something they could do .Receiving the end of their faith from the beginning when they first heard and experienced His love.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

This what I believe

1.Jesus say whosoever believe will be save

2.Then there is a verse say as many as father give will come

Both of them are true and not against each other

That mean father give whosoever believe to the son

Why father give a to the son, why not b

I believe father have good reason, not random

And I believe the reason is whosoever believe are pick to give to the son

 

[Jackson123]

Oh you believe in this ceremonial law and not moral law?

Actually when Paul used the term law, he meant law as a composite whole, there is no separation. For instance, you can read Romans 7:7 to see that he also included the 10 commandments into the term "law".

So you believe doing law is not save you?

I do, because we not able to do the law.

Have a faith in Jesus than Jesus in us help us bear fruit

And the fruit of Holy Spirit is love

 

[Guojing]

So you believe doing law is not save you?

I do, because we not able to do the law.

Have a faith in Jesus than Jesus in us help us bear fruit

And the fruit of Holy Spirit is love

What do you mean by "doing law is not save you"?

Doing the law will not save you of course, nor will it keep you saved. The law was meant to lead the Jews to Christ. For us Gentiles, we were never given the Law in the first place.

 

[Jackson123]

What do you mean by "doing law is not save you"?

Doing the law will not save you of course, nor will it keep you saved. The law was meant to lead the Jews to Christ. For us Gentiles, we were never given the Law in the first place.

Yep, Paul was deal with Jew

Martin Luther deal with the manipulation of the catholic teaching

 

[Beckworth]

If you define faith like that to include following his commands. Then I understand why you don't see the argument as circular.

How about making things simple, faith is believing in Jesus DBR. Works is following what he commands.

Then to you, salvation is faith AND works, like what John Wesley would propose.

James 2:22- faith together with works.

 

[Beckworth]

What do you mean by "doing law is not save you"?

Doing the law will not save you of course, nor will it keep you saved. The law was meant to lead the Jews to Christ. For us Gentiles, we were never given the Law in the first place.

You seem to be one of the few people on this site that. Understands that.