Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

[DeighAnn]

Wow I have a "biased" doctrine that is prejudiced. Look at all the prejudice comments from OSAS believers. Wow and my doctrines Biased.

you say I am
*Self- righteousness
*Dishonest
*Abusing Gods Grace
*Deceitful
*Twisting the word of God.
*A waste of time
*A person who babbles

Where have these biased ideas come from?

You OSAS believers

It stands to reason if you believe that OSAS is true you can do no wrong. Uh-oh....

 

[mailmandan]

So its possible

Are you admitting that it's possible that you are grasping for straws now in an effort to accommodate your biased doctrine at all costs?

Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (Mat 12:49-50)

Jesus pointed to Judas and called him a brother who did the will of his father.

Still grasping for straws I see. Did Jesus single out Judas and call him a brother? NO. Notice in verse 50 that Jesus said - "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” In John 6:40, we read - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Did the unbelieving, unclean devil (Judas) look to the Son and believe in Him and receive eternal life? NO. So much for your theory.

 

[Nat2019]

Judas was called a brother by Jesus because he was doing the will of the Lord. Jesus told the 12 they will receive 12 throwns in heaven.

If someone was a devil all along why would jesus tell them they have a thrown in heaven?

If someone was a devil all along, why would Jesus call them a brother who did the "WILL" of his father?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Yes animals blood refers to Jesus's according to you.

The sacrifices in the temple are a foreshadowing of Jesus the ultimate atoning sacrifice.

22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.
25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.
26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Heb 9

4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.
Heb 10

It is the teaching in Hebrews that shows Jesus's blood cleanses us, and the blood of animals was
the shadow of Jesus and His sacrifice.

This is a core christian theological understanding taught by scripture. It is just there, not an opinion.
God bless you.

 

[Nat2019]

Are you admitting that it's possible that you are grasping for straws now in an effort to accommodate your biased doctrine at all costs?

Still grasping for straws I see. Did Jesus single out Judas and call him a brother? NO. Notice in verse 50 that Jesus said - "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” In John 6:40, we read - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Did the unbelieving, unclean devil (Judas) look to the Son and believe in Him and receive eternal life? NO. So much for your theory.

Hi Pointed to his disciples including Judas and said here are my brothers and sisters, who do the will of my father.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I copied it from my FB page. I get regular quotes posted. Not sure if it’s from one of his books, maybe a sermon. I studied his life and writings after seeing some of his quotes a few decades ago. He heard the gospel being preached in the parking lot of a tire plant parking lot as he was going in to work.

I retired after 38 years of walking into a tire plant, so I have an affinity for his writings. He studied and opened a small church. He was rejected by mainstream religion of the time. He lived what he peached, that to me is the true measure of a man; does what he write match what he does, in private.

Thank you. Cool info, much appreciated.

One title I have of his (that I can recall off the top of my head) is "God Tells the Man Who Cares"... It's been way too long since I've read it (I really cannot recall its content / subject matter in particular), but the title really stuck out to me...

Thanks again.

 

[Sipsey]

Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Mat 19:28)

Judas was one of the twelve and was promised a thrown by Jesus.

If you look at the original Greek word which the English term “follow me” is derived, (ἀκολουθέω akolouthéō; contracted akolouthṓ, fut. akolouthḗsō, from akólou-thos (n.f.),) you will see it means more than the English term conveys-
following Jesus appears as an independent concept apart from any outward act or momentary circumstances of time and place which union with Him might involve. See also Mt 8:10,22,23; 12:15; 14:13; 19:2; 20:29,34; 21:9; 26:58; Mk 2:14,15; 3:7; 6:1; 10:21,28,52; 11:9; 14:13,51,54; 15:41; Lk 5:11,27,28; 7:9; 9:11,49,59; 18:22,28,43; 22:10,39; 23:27; Jn 1:37,38,40,43; 6:2; 13:36,37; 18:15; 20:6; 21:19,20,22; Ac 12:8,9; 13:43; 21:36; Rev 6:8; 14:13; 19:14. With reference to time, akolouthéō means to follow thereupon (Rev 14:8,9, to follow in succession, succeed; 14:13, their good deeds accompany them to the judgment seat of God). Figuratively it refers to spiritual or moral relationships (Mt 10:38; 16:24; Mk 8:34; Lk 9:23; Jn 8:12; 12:26).

 

[Nat2019]

The sacrifices in the temple are a foreshadowing of Jesus the ultimate atoning sacrifice.

22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.
25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.
26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Heb 9

4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.
Heb 10

It is the teaching in Hebrews that shows Jesus's blood cleanses us, and the blood of animals was
the shadow of Jesus and His sacrifice.

This is a core christian theological understanding taught by scripture. It is just there, not an opinion.
God bless you.

You mean it refers to the future sacrifice of Christ. A shadow of "things to come".

They were using this verse to support OSAS gospel idea- Jesus blood covers and doesn't see our sins). I know this is a shadow of things to come. I understand it differently to OSAS believers. It doesn't refer to imputed righteousness.

 

[Noose]

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

You have the wrong kind of hope which is not uncertain. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the assurance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7).

Faith is the ROOT of salvation and good works are the FRUIT. No fruit at all would demonstrate that there is no root. It's your connection of faith and good works that fails because you teach that BOTH faith AND works are the root of salvation because you teach salvation by faith and works.

Yes, this assurance and conviction and certainty in our hearts can not in any way result into a good work. You do not help your needy neighbor because you are certain and are convicted and are assured of salvation, you only help them because you love and not hate them.

The furthest you can express this inward conviction is to confess it not to work it.
The only way to express your inward love is to practice good deeds towards others.

IOW, you can have your inward conviction and sleep for 70 years without doing anything but you can not have love for others and sit with it, you have to express it- only then will it be love. Absolutely no connection between inward conviction and deeds.

So, good works are not the result of faith but love. Faith without love means nothing. Faith alone does n't save you.

 

[Sipsey]

Thank you. Cool info, much appreciated.

One title I have of his (that I can recall off the top of my head) is "God Tells the Man Who Cares"... It's been way too long since I've read it (I really cannot recall its content / subject matter in particular), but the title really stuck out to me...

Thanks again.

The Knowledge of the Holy is the first one I read.

 

[Nat2019]

If you look at the original Greek word which the English term “follow me” is derived, (ἀκολουθέω akolouthéō; contracted akolouthṓ, fut. akolouthḗsō, from akólou-thos (n.f.),) you will see it means more than the English term conveys-
following Jesus appears as an independent concept apart from any outward act or momentary circumstances of time and place which union with Him might involve. See also Mt 8:10,22,23; 12:15; 14:13; 19:2; 20:29,34; 21:9; 26:58; Mk 2:14,15; 3:7; 6:1; 10:21,28,52; 11:9; 14:13,51,54; 15:41; Lk 5:11,27,28; 7:9; 9:11,49,59; 18:22,28,43; 22:10,39; 23:27; Jn 1:37,38,40,43; 6:2; 13:36,37; 18:15; 20:6; 21:19,20,22; Ac 12:8,9; 13:43; 21:36; Rev 6:8; 14:13; 19:14. With reference to time, akolouthéō means to follow thereupon (Rev 14:8,9, to follow in succession, succeed; 14:13, their good deeds accompany them to the judgment seat of God). Figuratively it refers to spiritual or moral relationships (Mt 10:38; 16:24; Mk 8:34; Lk 9:23; Jn 8:12; 12:26).

Wow you have read alot of scriptures

 

[mailmandan]

Judas was called a brother by Jesus because he was doing the will of the Lord. Jesus told the 12 they will receive 12 throwns in heaven.

If someone was a devil all along why would jesus tell them they have a thrown in heaven?

If someone was a devil all along, why would Jesus call them a brother who did the "WILL" of his father?

Jesus did not directly call Judas a brother or indicate that Judas did the will of the Father and being an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-70; 13:10-11) is not the will of the Lord. Jesus specifically said, "you who have followed Me" will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

So did the unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (and was labeled the son of perdition) truly follow Jesus and will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel? If you can believe that then you can believe anything!

Judas was one of the twelve and was promised a thrown by Jesus.

So Jesus made a promise to Judas that He didn't keep? You sound really confused.

 

[Nat2019]

Read it clearly please.

Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.

For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (Mat 12:49-50)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Judas was called a brother by Jesus because he was doing the will of the Lord. Jesus told the 12 they will receive 12 throwns in heaven.

If someone was a devil all along why would jesus tell them they have a thrown in heaven?

If someone was a devil all along, why would Jesus call them a brother who did the "WILL" of his father?

The passages says, "ye who have followed me"... and then "in the regeneration..." (compare this phrase with Matt25:31-34, when Jesus will return to the earth to sit on His EARTHLY throne)... consider the "proleptic 'you'" concept, and that one replaced Judas (a bit later, Acts 1), so that there will indeed be "12 thrones" and they will indeed be "judging the 12 tribes of Israel" (on the earth, in the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, which is what those passages refer to), but Judas won't be among them (the "proleptic 'you'" meaning that there will indeed be a set of "12 thrones" for that specific purpose [and time period], but the passage isn't saying that "Judas" must be there as one of them, as I see it).


EDIT: I see the other poster (Sipsey) beat me to it! lol

 

[Nat2019]

Jesus did not directly call Judas a brother or indicate that Judas did the will of the Father and being an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-70; 13:10-11) is not the will of the Lord. Jesus specifically said, "you who have followed Me" will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

So did the unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (and was labeled the son of perdition) truly follow Jesus and will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel? If you can believe that then you can believe anything!

So Jesus made a promise to Judas that He didn't keep? You sound really confused.

This totally destroys OSAS

 

[mailmandan]

So, good works are not the result of faith but love. Faith without love means nothing. Faith alone does n't save you.

Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and faith IN CHRIST ALONE saves. (Ephesians 2:8,9) What did Paul say in Ephesians 2:8-9? Saved through faith plus works? NO. Faith "apart from additions or modifications." Faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

 

[Nat2019]

The passages says, "ye who have followed me"... and then "in the regeneration..." (compare this phrase with Matt25:31-34, when Jesus will return to the earth to sit on His EARTHLY throne)... consider the "proleptic 'you'" concept, and that one replaced Judas (a bit later, Acts 1), so that there will indeed be "12 thrones" and they will indeed be "judging the 12 tribes of Israel" (on the earth, in the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, which is what those passages refer to), but Judas won't be among them (the "proleptic 'you'" meaning that there will indeed be a set of "12 thrones" for that specific purpose [and time period], but the passage isn't saying that "Judas" must be there as one of them, as I see it)

Judas lost his thrown through denying Jesus and committing suicide.

 

[Nat2019]

Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6) and faith IN CHRIST ALONE saves. (Ephesians 2:8,9) What did Paul say in Ephesians 2:8-9? Saved through faith plus works? NO. Faith "apart from additions or modifications." Faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

Yes no modifications. Faith alone- love= OSAS doctrine. No works, no love.

OSAS believers dont believe in " good works" and it shows by their behavior. Good works = legalism. NO LOVE= OSAS gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

This totally destroys OSAS

Not at all, yet one of your main purposes here is to destroy OSAS which doesn't surprise me since you teach salvation by faith + WORKS. Those who live in fear and bondage to IN-security because they are trusting in their performance to save them are usually quick to attack those who have assurance of salvation through faith IN CHRIST ALONE.

 

[DeighAnn]

How many thrones are there in Heaven. Is this also a term used figuratively for a position of power and authority?