Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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U
UnderGrace
Guest
Well it could anything that one looks back at... the point being it has to be Him completely.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Looking back could also be about looking at one's old life
Yes, this seems to be the case to those truly called of God. I shared this on another thread:
It seems we all have a tendency to run away from God. Like I testified, I earnestly sought God for 2 years at 12 years of age. I filled myself with scripture. When I got discouraged and gave up, God did not. God even talked to me when I was 33 years old ready to blow my brains out. He stopped that. I didn't realize it was God at the time, but looking back I do. He still didn't call me back for another 4 years, but He did then. Maybe I was accepted at 12 but God wanted me to experience doing it without Him. Maybe that was needed to fix my heart firmly on Him.
So do I believe in OSAS? It seems I do or else this verse means nothing: Heb. 12:2"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
If Jesus is doing this, He may let your lease out many times but He will always pull you back in. Praise His holy name.
And or HE WILL LEAVE THE 99 to go find the one that wandered off.....
You won't find anywhere that I have said I need to help God keep my salvation . . . that might be what others accuse me of saying . . . I just believe that believers in Jesus' death are saved, have eternal life, and go to heaven. Those who do not believe are not saved, do not have eternal life, and go to an everlasting hell.
Yes, this seems to be the case to those truly called of God. I shared this on another thread:
It seems we all have a tendency to run away from God. Like I testified, I earnestly sought God for 2 years at 12 years of age. I filled myself with scripture. When I got discouraged and gave up, God did not. God even talked to me when I was 33 years old ready to blow my brains out. He stopped that. I didn't realize it was God at the time, but looking back I do. He still didn't call me back for another 4 years, but He did then. Maybe I was accepted at 12 but God wanted me to experience doing it without Him. Maybe that was needed to fix my heart firmly on Him.
So do I believe in OSAS? It seems I do or else this verse means nothing: Heb. 12:2"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
If Jesus is doing this, He may let your lease out many times but He will always pull you back in. Praise His holy name.
You summarise the true problem. OSAS does not matter for the elect, because they are elect.
My concern is the OSAS for the unbeliever who could come to faith and gain real trust rather than
trusting in a disconnected gospel to the heart and true reconciliation.
I know many born into christian families who stay going to church because of family and not
faith. They never truly see themselves as sinners, just as believers who find it hard, and learn
never to reach out and be honest. The odd contradiction is you cannot gain eternal life until
you realise you are doomed to judgement and justice truly would put you there.
I spent my childhood listening to church people who found reassurance in the liturgy of the
church which is wonderful, yet without the reality within. So detached they are, they observe
the responses there hearts make while pouring scorn on its reality. To these folk OSAS is like
poison and getting real about their lostness is seen as the enemy, while the Holy Spirit desires
to break through and start to bring reality to a lost heart.
Now there are some defenders of this position, that just in preaching about conviction of sin
is evil. In their book, Nineveh should not have repented, just believed in God. And they would
have been blasted like Sodom and Gomorah. If anyone has a heart for the lost, preaching the
poison of sin and its destruction should be close to their hearts. God bless.
God may have used that, but I'm sure it was not His chosen way.
How can an unbeliever believe that he or she is eternally secure?
How can a true believer believe that he or she can lose their salvation?
And what is a "disconnected gospel"? The Gospel requires -- indeed commands -- repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Go to many churches, and you will find people who hold on to a faith which is not the gospel and
claim whatever they do, God has them safe. If you talked about the heart, love, knowing oneself,
repentance, confession of sin, reading His word, walking the path they would have no clue.
Security easily given leads people to believe nothing matters and responsibility is not important.
I know believers who have committed adultery and where quite happy to carry on because they were
safe. The logic is obvious, I have a ticket to heaven and that is all that matters.
Without preaching repentance, with altar calls, outward confession, it is easy to become part of the
church community and nobody really knows ones place. Just ask people in church why they are there,
and it soon becomes obvious they do not really know.
Yes, I agree with you. I see some egocentric posts that ignore man's sinful ways and say they are saved no matter what. We need to be careful for the word says that sinners shall not inherit the Kingdom (Gal. 5:19-21). I would be very concerned if sinful habits existed in my life.
I know what you are saying Oyster. But my personality type most likely needed life's hard knocks to keep me in line. I thinks God sees all the scenarios before deciding our paths.
This reminds me of something. I shared with a believer once about the heart, and the need for cleansing,
and their response was to say that was the old belief system, we now had the Holy Spirit and demonstrations
of miracle working power. Oddly they also claimed to be in church leadership and knew much about people.
Whatever they had, it was a social mix, and they got high by domination, in a christian guise.
We are complicated creatures and our true motivations are often hidden.
It could be we love disputes, and creating them and winding people up is our thing.
Or just getting noticed and abusing others at the merest hint of an issue. God bless you
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
We understand it fine.
It appears that you don't.
Because, try reading that one verse in context with the rest of the chapter from say verse 5 through verse 18, and for what it literally is which is a hymn of the time; used in context to encourage Timothy to teach correct Christology.
The gift of God and the seal of the Holy Spirit is not a proverbia white elephant. God would be a mocker if he were to give a gift that was so out of our ability to obtain and then take it away from you for the same reason that it was beyond you to begin with.
It's a denial of who Christ is to say he would begin a work in you that you could never begin and then not be able to finish that work because you could not finish that work.
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
Doubly dead is a rhetorical device. This in no way implies that they were ever in Christ, only that they deny the truth and attempt to teach false doctrine to those who have correct teaching.
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
Before salvation by Grace, before the new covenant I'm his blood.
Oh, and I'm not Solomon, I don't think you are either. Are any of us Solomon? Or do any of us hold the office that Solomon held?
Wait there is a new King in the line of David who sits on the throne and is perfect in heart and deed. Blessed is the name of the Lord who is perfect.
You either believe in eternal security which is once saved always saved or you don't.....your verbiage indicates that you do not believe in eternal security and hence by default believe you must help maintain your salvation by what you do or don't do......
What does these passages mean? None of these point to OSAS
Matt 10:21-22 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
John 15:4-7 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
1 Cor 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Gal 6:8-9 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
Col 1:21-23 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Matt 10:21-22 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
John 15:4-7 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
1 Cor 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Gal 6:8-9 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
Col 1:21-23 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Is salvation a gift?
The GIFTS and CALLING of GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE <--if salvation can be lost or forfeit this is a lie and false.
Is being justified FREELY MEAN it is free?
If we must MAINTAIN OR EARN IT FREE IS NOT FREE nor is a GIFT A GIFT
We are kept by the power of God through FAITH.
IF salvation can be lost or forfeit KEPT is false and a lie.
IF we become FAITHLESS he ABIDES FAITHFUL BECAUSE HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF.
I WILL LOSE NOTHING THE FATHER HATH GIVEN ME, BUT RATHER RAISE IT UP THE LAST DAY
If salvatuon can be lost or forfeit he will indeed LOSE SOMETHING and the bible is false, misleading, contradictory and we might as well pitch it in the trash as just another book by men!!!!
JESUS keeps his word and it is HIS FAITH that KEEPS US SECURE.....hence the words IRREVOCABLE, FREE, GIFT, KEPT, ETERNAL LIFE,
In the Scriptures I posted you will see we as believers have a responsibility. No we cannot save ourselves, no we cannot keep ourselves no it is not by any work we do. We are to remain in Jesus, endure until the end, keep in memory the gospel, not to faint and keep the faith.