Not By Works

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BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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I was just sitting here wondering , how do we love someone that we really do not like...
I imagine something awful happening to someone I do not like , and I think " If they were in need , or was knocked down , could I walk past them " and the answer is no...

Before I was saved , if I thought such a thought , I would even wish something bad happened to them , but now I do not , I know for sure , that I would help them , is that loving them as Christ loves? , because to be honest , I still do not like certain people because they are horrible , especially a mother of my granddaughters , yet I would help her if she was in need , I believe that is because the Holy Spirit is me , and now I can show the love of Jesus , I do not like her , but I do not hate like I did before...xox...
And that's the point Rose.

We are not called to like people but to love them.
Love is not a feeling but an act of the will.

What you are talking about here is Agape love.
That love that Jesus asked Peter if he Agape him.
Twice Peter used Phileo as a response.
That was more of a brotherly love, an emotional love.

The 3rd time Jesus asked Peter do you Phileo me?
Peter gets upset and says "You know I Phileo you"

Then Jesus said "Feed my sheep"

It's all about moving from an emotional response to be replaced by an Agape response.
 

theanointedwinner

Well-known member
Nov 6, 2018
2,058
1,125
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Bill Gee

in short, what does love me?


secular dictionary said "an intense feeling of deep affection" and "a great interest and pleasure in something"

but what does love mean?
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,754
4,119
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And that's the point Rose.

We are not called to like people but to love them.
Love is not a feeling but an act of the will.

What you are talking about here is Agape love.
That love that Jesus asked Peter if he Agape him.
Twice Peter used Phileo as a response.
That was more of a brotherly love, an emotional love.

The 3rd time Jesus asked Peter do you Phileo me?
Peter gets upset and says "You know I Phileo you"

Then Jesus said "Feed my sheep"

It's all about moving from an emotional response to be replaced by an Agape response.
Now I understand...
But is it ok not to like someone...I mean , this women has been battling with me for the past 14yrs , my son who is in prison has two beautiful daughters by him , but she is cruel...

I have reached out to her many times in the past , even bought her a bible , and I have bent over backwards to keep things civil , and prayed a lot for both of us...

This week passed , my granddaughter who is 13 , came to my home once again absolutely broken , her big brother from another daddy slapped her around her face , she is being bullied in the home , she was allowed to stay with me , but I had to act gentle towards her mum to even get her home with me , yet when Sunday came , she was not allowed to come to church ( my granddaughter is seeking the Lord with all her little heart )

My granddaughter told me that her mum said to her " Do not ever bring your nan to my door again "
I just don`t like her , and I have tried , she is fake , when Ii think she makes steps , they are not real , but yet I know I love her...xox...
 

theanointedwinner

Well-known member
Nov 6, 2018
2,058
1,125
113
And that's the point Rose.

We are not called to like people but to love them.
Love is not a feeling but an act of the will.

What you are talking about here is Agape love.
That love that Jesus asked Peter if he Agape him.
Twice Peter used Phileo as a response.

That was more of a brotherly love, an emotional love.

The 3rd time Jesus asked Peter do you Phileo me?
Peter gets upset and says "You know I Phileo you"

Then Jesus said "Feed my sheep"

It's all about moving from an emotional response to be replaced by an Agape response.
to rephrase my question, what is agape?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,020
4,439
113
Now I understand...
But is it ok not to like someone...I mean , this women has been battling with me for the past 14yrs , my son who is in prison has two beautiful daughters by him , but she is cruel...

I have reached out to her many times in the past , even bought her a bible , and I have bent over backwards to keep things civil , and prayed a lot for both of us...

This week passed , my granddaughter who is 13 , came to my home once again absolutely broken , her big brother from another daddy slapped her around her face , she is being bullied in the home , she was allowed to stay with me , but I had to act gentle towards her mum to even get her home with me , yet when Sunday came , she was not allowed to come to church ( my granddaughter is seeking the Lord with all her little heart )

My granddaughter told me that her mum said to her " Do not ever bring your nan to my door again "
I just don`t like her , and I have tried , she is fake , when Ii think she makes steps , they are not real , but yet I know I love her...xox...
You have a mishmash as we say over here.
I am assuming that the two daughters of your son are the grandkids of this women.

If that is the case then in a sense I can understand her reactions.

Lost one son to prison and is afraid of losing her grandkids as well.
If that is the case then you are a threat.

Let us know if my thoughts are correct.
I'm just surmising your post above.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,020
4,439
113
to rephrase my question, what is agape?
God is Agape love, it's his nature.

Agape love is a sacrificial love that voluntarily suffers inconvenience, discomfort, and even death for the benefit of another without expecting anything in return.

It's about giving, not to be given back.
The sacrifice on the cross is Agape love.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,754
4,119
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63
You have a mishmash as we say over here.
I am assuming that the two daughters of your son are the grandkids of this women.

If that is the case then in a sense I can understand her reactions.

Lost one son to prison and is afraid of losing her grandkids as well.
If that is the case then you are a threat.

Let us know if my thoughts are correct.
I'm just surmising your post above.
Sorry Bill...She is the mother of my grandchildren , my son who is in prison is their daddy...
The son who I told you about , he is their dad , she is their mum...xox...
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
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Yes

Godly sorrow led you to repentance

But it does not help you KNW god in a way you can possibly LOVE him.



Agape love (the love in the passage you quoted) takes a close personal intimate relationship between two people

At new birth, God Agape you

But you have no capacity to agape God.

it does not mean you WANT to continue in sin,

It means you have to learn what true sin is (not just the letter, but the spirit) and how to properly live a life which follows this way.
Thank you for your explaination on agape love. The reason I asked about Godly Sorrow was to get a clarification of your previous statement. Thank You
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
I was just sitting here wondering , how do we love someone that we really do not like...
I imagine something awful happening to someone I do not like , and I think " If they were in need , or was knocked down , could I walk past them " and the answer is no...

Before I was saved , if I thought such a thought , I would even wish something bad happened to them , but now I do not , I know for sure , that I would help them , is that loving them as Christ loves? , because to be honest , I still do not like certain people because they are horrible , especially a mother of my granddaughters , yet I would help her if she was in need , I believe that is because the Holy Spirit is me , and now I can show the love of Jesus , I do not like her , but I do not hate like I did before...xox...
A better way of asking this, is how to you get to empathise with someone who initially winds you up?
And the answer is walking in their shoes. Often the worst people where babies, children, young adults and
things developed. When we appear in their view, they see someone else than the person we are, and boom,
we are the enemy.

Often the very thing we dislike is the negative feelings the people are showing to us.
But it takes time and patience to not provoke, not react, to be positive, and to remain disengaged.
For some we will never get to the point of breaking through, but that is just how it is.

It is unbelievably frustrating, but actually some people are bitter, angry, twisted, and until they change,
we can just keep our distance. It is hard when it is someone in our family and suffering is going on, but
that is the tension of families and also their limitations of engagement. God bless you.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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I think you answered the question.

Now take that knowledge, and apply it to a newborn child of God.

He is just beginning to have his reasoning and understanding come, And this is a lifelong process. At this point, he is no more able to love God than you or I were as newborns.
AMEN.....it is not that we loved him, but that he loved us and gave himself for us.....NO ONE instantly loves GOD....it is a process of growth and maturity as evidenced by the words....LET the LOVE of GOD be perfected in you.......the word perfected = matured and or grown
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
Greetings VCO,

I have been saddened by the twisting of scripture.

How does a man or woman condemn their own family? A child, spouse, parent? Or even themselves!?

If there is someone they love or themselves who is unrepentant and frankly disinterested in God or His laws then they have two choices;

Accept the fate of unrepentant sinners,

or

Accept an interpretation that either identifies all as "saved" or possibly "once saved always saved" for those who casually made a possibly coaxed profession of faith at one time.

On top of that if they are the parent how do they reconcile the responsibility that they had to "bring up a child in the way they should go..." but the child did not accept or essentially departed.

Perhaps there should be a discussion breaching these issues, but I'm sure the desperate will infiltrate and insist that a doctrinal position which saves themselves or an unrepentant family member is the only one that can be true otherwise the horror would be too painful to accept.

This is one of the many explanations I have for the deliberate miscommunication and resistance to "clarifying" the terms. Because once the terms are clarified the fallacy can be confronted.

Jesus warned us, He did not come to bring peace;

Luk 12:51-53 KJV Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: (52) For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. (53) The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

He also warned us the cost of discipleship;

Luk 14:26 KJV If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

This Way!

John 10:27-30 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”


1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.

2 Timothy 1:9 (CSBBible)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Ephesians 4:11-14 (HCSB)
11 And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
12 for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
14 Then we will no longer be little children, tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching, by human cunning with cleverness in the techniques of deceit.




 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
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and even better --->the mercy of the LORD endures FOREVER!!
We will never fully understand the mercy of God, how a Holy awesome God could even think
to bring us into His presence and bless us with His heart and grace.

This God is so fantastic nothing in all creation can compare, that the King of All would walk
with us, in our confusion, in our certainty, our desire to say absolute things, and clearly put
everything in its place, when we are merely flowers in a field, one day here and the next day
gone.

Thank you Jesus for your forgiveness and your grace, Amen.
 
May 1, 2019
1,336
744
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This Way!

John 10:27-30 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”


1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.

2 Timothy 1:9 (CSBBible)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Ephesians 4:11-14 (HCSB)
11 And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
12 for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
14 Then we will no longer be little children, tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching, by human cunning with cleverness in the techniques of deceit.
Greetings VCO,
And thank you sincerely for the Verses. Read them twice.

What I find concerning is how many arguments about grace rely almost exclusively on the writings of Paul and very little on those of Jesus. I am not disputing the writings of Paul except to say that the proper interpretation of them are impossible without a close study and understanding of Jesus’ words and works.

Everything Paul says is subject to the authority, works and judgments of Jesus. If anything Paul’s says contradicts Jesus it must be disregarded, period, end of argument.
What I hear in many arguments is that Grace is a means of passing up judgment altogether, but this is not the case. Perhaps this error comes when one thinks there has been a putting away the law, by which God judges all things. However, Jesus did not “put away the law”; more precisely, He upheld it by agreeing to pay its full penalty for the sin of the world. Think about it like this; if He had repealed the law, the entire world would have become sinless, remember “where there is no law, there is no transgression” (Rom. 4:15). A doing away with the law would have de-criminalized all sin and made all mankind legally perfect--though personally imperfect.
Instead Jesus paid the full penalty by redeeming the world, re-purchasing it for Himself, which gave Him the lawful authority to “save” them by a longer, painful process of drawing the world by Love.
By paying the penalty for us He retained the right to judge mankind for sin. So, even Christians are disciplined and judged for sin, why? Because the Law remains in effect though under the administration of Jesus. He chose to bear the penalty for the sins of the world and again; retained the right to judge us, not so that we might be lost forever, but so that we would mature and develop the character of Christ. Like a good parent, His judgments are corrective and administered in Love.
But what is Jesus trying to work into us? Simply put; a love of His laws through obedience. Jesus Himself said that the only people that “Loved” Him were those who both Knew and Obeyed HIS LAWS. And he further clarified that these were the only ones both Himself and the Heavenly Father would reveal Themselves to and fellowship with.
Joh 14:21 KJV He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
We cannot “Love” Him by talking about Him or reciting a profession of faith, this “Love” Jesus is speaking about comes by Knowing and Obeying His commandments.
And, Jesus, speaking of “that day” or the end of this dispensation of “grace” where under less duress we might choose to know and obey His Laws, there would be a “Judgment”, the one He retained to right to when He paid the penalty for our sins.
Those who chose to “Act religious” without learning and obeying His laws under this most favorable dispensation of Grace will be cast out of His presence.
Mat 7:22-23 KJV Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
See here; “I never knew you”! Remember for Jesus and The Heavenly Father to make themselves “Known” to us we have to Know and Keep His Laws. By the way the English word in the verse above “iniquity” was translated from the Greek word anomia, which is “a”- without and “nomia” The Law”.

It all fits together perfectly if one chooses to see it. So Grace was not a doing away with The Law or the penalty of The Law, it is a “grace period” under which we might “learn/understand/know/hath” and “keep” The Laws.
Jesus is preparing us for His Kingdom. Those who will inherit the kingdom are those who abide by His Laws or the righteous. And isn’t is strange how much people are attacking everyone who promoted the keeping of the law or righteousness?!
Mat 5:10 KJV Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Who is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven and who is the least?
Mat 5:19 KJV Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,284
6,656
113
Greetings VCO,
And thank you sincerely for the Verses. Read them twice.

What I find concerning is how many arguments about grace rely almost exclusively on the writings of Paul and very little on those of Jesus. I am not disputing the writings of Paul except to say that the proper interpretation of them are impossible without a close study and understanding of Jesus’ words and works.

Everything Paul says is subject to the authority, works and judgments of Jesus. If anything Paul’s says contradicts Jesus it must be disregarded, period, end of argument.
What I hear in many arguments is that Grace is a means of passing up judgment altogether, but this is not the case. Perhaps this error comes when one thinks there has been a putting away the law, by which God judges all things. However, Jesus did not “put away the law”; more precisely, He upheld it by agreeing to pay its full penalty for the sin of the world. Think about it like this; if He had repealed the law, the entire world would have become sinless, remember “where there is no law, there is no transgression” (Rom. 4:15). A doing away with the law would have de-criminalized all sin and made all mankind legally perfect--though personally imperfect.
Instead Jesus paid the full penalty by redeeming the world, re-purchasing it for Himself, which gave Him the lawful authority to “save” them by a longer, painful process of drawing the world by Love.
By paying the penalty for us He retained the right to judge mankind for sin. So, even Christians are disciplined and judged for sin, why? Because the Law remains in effect though under the administration of Jesus. He chose to bear the penalty for the sins of the world and again; retained the right to judge us, not so that we might be lost forever, but so that we would mature and develop the character of Christ. Like a good parent, His judgments are corrective and administered in Love.
But what is Jesus trying to work into us? Simply put; a love of His laws through obedience. Jesus Himself said that the only people that “Loved” Him were those who both Knew and Obeyed HIS LAWS. And he further clarified that these were the only ones both Himself and the Heavenly Father would reveal Themselves to and fellowship with.
Joh 14:21 KJV He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
We cannot “Love” Him by talking about Him or reciting a profession of faith, this “Love” Jesus is speaking about comes by Knowing and Obeying His commandments.
And, Jesus, speaking of “that day” or the end of this dispensation of “grace” where under less duress we might choose to know and obey His Laws, there would be a “Judgment”, the one He retained to right to when He paid the penalty for our sins.
Those who chose to “Act religious” without learning and obeying His laws under this most favorable dispensation of Grace will be cast out of His presence.
Mat 7:22-23 KJV Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
See here; “I never knew you”! Remember for Jesus and The Heavenly Father to make themselves “Known” to us we have to Know and Keep His Laws. By the way the English word in the verse above “iniquity” was translated from the Greek word anomia, which is “a”- without and “nomia” The Law”.

It all fits together perfectly if one chooses to see it. So Grace was not a doing away with The Law or the penalty of The Law, it is a “grace period” under which we might “learn/understand/know/hath” and “keep” The Laws.
Jesus is preparing us for His Kingdom. Those who will inherit the kingdom are those who abide by His Laws or the righteous. And isn’t is strange how much people are attacking everyone who promoted the keeping of the law or righteousness?!
Mat 5:10 KJV Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Who is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven and who is the least?
Mat 5:19 KJV Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
ah, here we go= Paul contradicts Jesus .

so, Law keeping for salvation. Sabbath keeping for salvation. ( you did not say that here, you will get to it)

you all operate from the same script- show up here, act friendly, say you " just want to try to share and learn" then you start knit picking little things, then openly disagreeing, then you roll out your agenda , as you did here.

the next part is telling us we are not saved if we do not keep the Jewish Law and Sabbath.

so, go ahead. you know you want to.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,754
4,119
113
63
ah, here we go= Paul contradicts Jesus .

so, Law keeping for salvation. Sabbath keeping for salvation. ( you did not say that here, you will get to it)

you all operate from the same script- show up here, act friendly, say you " just want to try to share and learn" then you start knit picking little things, then openly disagreeing, then you roll out your agenda , as you did here.

the next part is telling us we are not saved if we do not keep the Jewish Law and Sabbath.

so, go ahead. you know you want to.
I hope that is not his agenda , I am not that discerning...xox...
 

theanointedwinner

Well-known member
Nov 6, 2018
2,058
1,125
113
if satan makes you feel at lost with existence, and tell you "without sin, you will never be happy"

and James 4:7 says "submit to God, resist the devil, and he will flee from you"?

how do we submit if we feel lost
how do we resist if Satan feels overwhelming?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
Greetings VCO,
And thank you sincerely for the Verses. Read them twice.

What I find concerning is how many arguments about grace rely almost exclusively on the writings of Paul and very little on those of Jesus. I am not disputing the writings of Paul except to say that the proper interpretation of them are impossible without a close study and understanding of Jesus’ words and works.

Everything Paul says is subject to the authority, works and judgments of Jesus. If anything Paul’s says contradicts Jesus it must be disregarded, period, end of argument.
The above statements reek or pure ignorance and a rejection of the word of God and God would not lead a believer to spew such drivel.

The words of PAUL.....ARE the word's of JESUS....He was taught by DIRECT REVELATION from JESUS, was CALLED, QUALIFIED and SENT BY JESUS and he was INSPIRED by God's Holy SPIRIT......and on a few RARE occasions when PAUL spoke his personal VIEW he stated as SUCH and even stated he had LIBERTY from the LORD to do as such.

ANY man, woman, religion or church that tries to PIT the words of JESUS against PAUL or the words of JAMES against PAUL or any other writer against PAUL are false, not led of GOD and speaking flat heresy........very SATANIC