Does salvation require repentance and perseverance?

[Nehemiah6]

It isn’t enough to simply repent one time, but to Persevere in our attempt to live a sin free life.

That is called "sanctification". But you are confusing sanctification with justification.

Those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are justified by grace through faith. Which means that God declares them to be righteous, and they receive the gift of eternal life and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Father123]

As in “the unpardonable sin” if someone hears or receives knowledge of the free gift of life...and spurn that, what hope is left. Old timers called it, “sinning away your day of grace”.

 

[Father123]

Hi again Blik, the thing about OSAS is this, you have to be "Once Saved" before you can be "Always Saved" (and just 'claiming' to be a Christian doesn't mean that you are one ... even if you 'believe' that you are as well).

The passage you posited for us from Hebrews 10 concerns 1st Century Jews (who were probably affiliated with the 1st Century Church in some way) who both knew and understood all that they needed to know about Jesus to be saved by Him ... but the continued to reject Him anyway! For them, no sacrifice for sins was left, only a fearful expectation of judgment.

'True' Christians do not keep on sinning deliberately* once they've become Christians, but these folks did (and not just any sin, rather, the sin that we know that they were guilty of committing was their continual rejection of Jesus).

Like I just said, for someone to be "Always Saved", they have to be "Once Saved" first, and the folks spoken of here in Hebrews 10:26-27 ~never~ were. There is, in fact, no indication in the text that they either claimed and/or believed themselves to be Christians, just that they 1. knew who Jesus was/why they needed to receive Him as their Lord and Savior and that 2. they never acted upon that knowledge/continued to reject Him.

~Deut
p.s. - Christians act like Christians (for the most part), even when we sin, yes?

*(The claim of someone who 1. says that they have become a Christian, but who 2. continues on in deliberate sin/a sinful lifestyle, should not be believed. If the changes that God makes in the hearts and lives of all of us who are His are never outwardly apparent in the behavior of someone who claims to be a Christian, then their "claim" should not be considered as anything more than that)
.

Great truth
Thanks JMT

 

[Father123]

A claim only boasts. Proof requires evidence. Fruit!!

 

[John146]

That is not scripture. Good works prove faith.


good

Can you give some good works that prove one is saved that lost people don’t do? Thanks.

 

[Chester]

Not exactly, which seems to be the purpose of your thread. In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) *Also, in Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but who has committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion and is not without God's preservation. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1)

Why all the effort to try to prove from other verses that the people in verse 26 were never believers? Is there a hidden agenda or a point to prove?

Why not just let the text say what it says:

If we (the writer includes himself) keep on sinning willfully after knowing the truth, then there is no more sacrifice for sins.

To me that means that I surely do not want to get into a state where I am ongoingly sinning willfully!

Danger! Stay away from sin!

 

[mailmandan]

Why all the effort to try to prove from other verses that the people in verse 26 were never believers? Is there a hidden agenda or a point to prove?

Why not just let the text say what it says:

If we (the writer includes himself) keep on sinning willfully after knowing the truth, then there is no more sacrifice for sins.

To me that means that I surely do not want to get into a state where I am ongoingly sinning willfully!

Danger! Stay away from sin!

I have no hidden agenda and we must properly harmonize scripture with scripture (which does take some effort) in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. Genuine believers are not described as those who sin willfully, practice sin, which is a habitual, willful lifestyle that is continuous, with no goal or effort to stop.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The writer includes anyone who sins willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth. For those who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul (unbelievers) there was no heart submission to the knowledge of the truth. It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians. Hence the warning and the context.

 

[Chester]

I have no hidden agenda and we must properly harmonize scripture with scripture (which does take some effort) in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. Genuine believers are not described as those who sin willfully, practice sin, which is a habitual, willful lifestyle that is continuous, with no goal or effort to stop.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The writer includes anyone who sins willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth. For those who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul (unbelievers) there was no heart submission to the knowledge of the truth. It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians. Hence the warning and the context.

Ah, why are you not just honest and admit you are defending OSAS . . .

Your "proper conclusion" on doctrine in this case is a predetermined agenda that once a person is saved they will persevere.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I think it does.

If we read Hebrews 10: 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

It isn’t enough to simply repent one time, but to Persevere in our attempt to live a sin free life.

Hebrews 10: 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

I thought about this question a bit. Does salvation require repentance and perseverance?

Salvation is repentance and perseverance.

To believe Jesus, is to believe or see I am far from God as Peter said, "Go away from me I am
a sinful man."

Everytime you go to Jesus, the conviction of failure is there. There is not a place where it
is not possible to see this gap, and thereby to desire to resolve it through repentance and
perseverance. If one has to change, to become, to grow, to develop in new aspects then
one can never be happy in the world put pressing forward to claim that for which Jesus has
called us.

So if one asks the question to oneself, already Jesus and ourselves are not seen clearly.
Even as a teenager I was forever aware of the difference between me and scriptures
aspirations. And though I have grown much over the years, still much lies before me,
and much still is there to do, to love, to serve, to conquer and lay hold of that which
God has called us to, Amen.

 

[Deuteronomy]

...if someone "claims" to have become a Christian, how do they/we know if their "claim" is true or not?

By trusting in what Scripture says about the believer, that they have everlasting life. Good works prove nothing.

Hi John, there's no question that a 'true' believer has come into possession of eternal life, and that from the moment that they first believe .. e.g. John 5:24. The question is, how does someone know if they are a true believer (who is now in possession of eternal life), or if they are someone who only thinks/believes that they are

Thanks!

~Deut

2 Corinthians 13​

5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​

.

 

[garee]

I like to think of it as he gave us a opportunity to as many. Not one more or less.

 

[garee]

Hi John, there's no question that a 'true' believer has come into possession of eternal life, and that from the moment that they first believe .. e.g. John 5:24. The question is, how does someone know if they are a true believer (who is now in possession of eternal life), or if they are someone who only thinks/believes that they are

Thanks!

~Deut

2 Corinthians 13​

5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​

.

Great question.

We have a living hope that provides a exclusive faith that gives us the confidence to go forward. (Phil 1:6) that we can be thankful for.

We hope he will save us. He knows the end of those with no faith. I wonder as in Luke when it comes will he find faith working as it is written, in the hearts. Or will it be like the time of Noah everyone doing their own will as evil constantly under the god of experience. Did God really say?

Deuteronomy 32:20And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Believers, Christians. Because our faith is based on Christ's labor of love and not that of our own selves we are receiving the end from the beginning. We are comforted by the word of God, they give us a hope that surpasses all human understanding if we keep our minds clean we can move in a hope of pleasing Him . He informs us He will not forget the good works we offer towards His name

1 Peter 1:8-10 King James Version (KJV)Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Psalm 119:81 My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.

 

[mailmandan]

I believe you are indeed correct Blik!

Even in one of the best known verses in the Bible ever quoted. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that "whosoever BELIEVETH" in Him? "SHOULD not perish!" Not WOULD not! As OSAS, or those who believe, and practice, just believing is ENOUGH!
Repenting, is a "work of faith and trust!"
Perservering, is a "work of faith and trust" also!

I often hear Roman Catholics make this argument. Do you believe that "SHOULD" not perish means that believers should not perish as in they shouldn't but they still might?" In the NAB (Catholic Bible) John 3:16 reads - For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. Now that really makes receiving eternal life sound uncertain for believers. Why am I not surprised? Roman Catholicism is plagued with fear and bondage to IN-security because they teach works salvation!

In regards to John 3:16, the NASB reads - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him SHALL not perish, but have eternal life."

In John 3:18, we read - He who believes in Him is NOT condemned.. The word "NOT" is in multiple translations. Should we change that to "should not" be condemned or "might not" be condemned to make it sound more uncertain?

In John 3:36, we read - He who believes in the Son HAS everlasting life.. The word "HAS" is also in multiple translations. Should we change that to "should have" or "might have" to make it sound more uncertain? I think you get my point.

According to John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6 etc.. BELIEVING is ENOUGH. It's enough because the OBJECT of our belief (Jesus Christ) is ENOUGH and His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. Those who truly BELIEVE have already repented and saving faith in Christ perseveres and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Those who trust in works for salvation have no assurance of salvation.

 

[John146]

Hi John, there's no question that a 'true' believer has come into possession of eternal life, and that from the moment that they first believe .. e.g. John 5:24. The question is, how does someone know if they are a true believer (who is now in possession of eternal life), or if they are someone who only thinks/believes that they are

From what God has told them in Scripture. We need to renew our minds daily to remind us who we are and how we should be living. Unfortunately, many believers stray away from the word searching for feelings instead of truth. The modern church hasnt been much help focusing on experiences rather than truth.

 

[NayborBear]

I often hear Roman Catholics make this argument. Do you believe that "SHOULD" not perish means that believers should not perish as in they shouldn't but they still might?" In the NAB (Catholic Bible) John 3:16 reads - For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. Now that really makes receiving eternal life sound uncertain for believers. Why am I not surprised? Roman Catholicism is plagued with fear and bondage to IN-security because they teach works salvation!

In regards to John 3:16, the NASB reads - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him SHALL not perish, but have eternal life."

In John 3:18, we read - He who believes in Him is NOT condemned.. The word "NOT" is in multiple translations. Should we change that to "should not" be condemned or "might not" be condemned to make it sound more uncertain?

In John 3:36, we read - He who believes in the Son HAS everlasting life.. The word "HAS" is also in multiple translations. Should we change that to "should have" or "might have" to make it sound more uncertain? I think you get my point.

According to John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6 etc.. BELIEVING is ENOUGH. It's enough because the OBJECT of our belief (Jesus Christ) is ENOUGH and His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. Those who truly BELIEVE have already repented and saving faith in Christ perseveres and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Those who trust in works for salvation have no assurance of salvation.

Well? Here's Messiah's point! It seems the people in these verses were convinced that they in fact were not going to perish. Now, had they grasped the difference between should and would? Might they have lived their lives differently?
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I'm sure these people preached love. Yes indeed! Love covers a multitude of sin! Just as certain as I am that what one man calls a "rod of iron?" Another man cries "oppression!"

"Should not?" "Will not?"

 

[mailmandan]

Well? Here's Messiah's point! It seems the people in these verses were convinced that they in fact were not going to perish. Now, had they grasped the difference between should and would? Might they have lived their lives differently?
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I'm sure these people preached love. Yes indeed! Love covers a multitude of sin! Just as certain as I am that what one man calls a "rod of iron?" Another man cries "oppression!"

"Should not?" "Will not?"

They should have trusted in Jesus Christ alone for salvation instead of trusting in their works for salvation. For those who truly BELIEVE, shall not. In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is by works.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22 were not true converts.

 

[Deuteronomy]

The question is, how does someone know if they are a true believer (who is now in possession of eternal life), or if they are someone who only thinks/believes that they are.

Great question.

From what God has told them in Scripture.

Hi Garee/John/et al, demons believe in God (and they shudder because they do .. James 2:19). They also know, believe and confess that Jesus is the Son of the Most High God .. e.g. Mark 5:1-13.

That said, there are also many people who "believe and confess" Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and who think/truly believe that they are Christians, but they are not/never were (which the Lord will make clear to them at the end of the age in the Judgment .. Matthew 7:22-23, 13:24-30, 36-43).

So, if you had to 'prove' that you are the Christian that you claim to be (perhaps to a jury in a court of law), what tangible evidence would/could you offer them to prove that your claim is true

Or perhaps thinking of it in a different way, you claim that you used to be a non-Christian, but that you are now "born again". Great, but how do you know/how can you prove that's actually true? Is there anything that you can point to (tangible evidence*) that justifies your claim/proves (to yourself and to others) that you have truly been made, "His workmanship", and that you are now a wholly "new creature" in Christ? (e.g./cf Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10; James 2:18, 24)

Thanks!

~Deut

2 Corinthians 13​

5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​

*(Do you perhaps act differently than you used to? Talk differently than you used to? Think differently than you used to? Live differently than you used to? IOW, what can you point to that is observably/discernibly different about you as a non-Christian and you as a Christian?)
.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I think it does.

If we read Hebrews 10: 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

It isn’t enough to simply repent one time, but to Persevere in our attempt to live a sin free life.

Hebrews 10: 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

the object has never been to live a sin free life

the object is to follow Christ and if you do He will never lead you into sin

we may still sin on this earth, but if we confess our sin God is faithful and just to forgive us our sin

anyone who says they no longer sin is a liar. the Bible calls them liar. see one of John's letters for that

the will of God is not to live a sin free life

look it up

the will of God is that we are transformed into the image of His Son

now go ahead and tell us that means stop sinning

yeah. we know

 

[John146]

Hi Garee/John/et al, demons believe in God (and they shudder because they do .. James 2:19). They also know, believe and confess that Jesus is the Son of the Most High God .. e.g. Mark 5:1-13.

That said, there are also many people who "believe and confess" Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and who think/truly believe that they are Christians, but they are not/never were (which the Lord will make clear to them at the end of the age in the Judgment .. Matthew 7:22-23, 13:24-30, 36-43).

So, if you had to 'prove' that you are the Christian that you claim to be (perhaps to a jury in a court of law), what tangible evidence would/could you offer them to prove that your claim is true

Or perhaps thinking of it in a different way, you claim that you used to be a non-Christian, but that you are now "born again". Great, but how do you know/how can you prove that's actually true? Is there anything that you can point to (tangible evidence*) that justifies your claim/proves (to yourself and to others) that you have truly been made, "His workmanship", and that you are now a wholly "new creature" in Christ? (e.g./cf Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10; James 2:18, 24)

Thanks!

~Deut

2 Corinthians 13​

5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​

*(Do you perhaps act differently than you used to? Talk differently than you used to? Think differently than you used to? Live differently than you used to? IOW, what can you point to that is observably/discernibly different about you as a non-Christian and you as a Christian?)
.

Yep, it’s between you and the Lord only. We are not to prove our salvation to anyone.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Yep, it’s between you and the Lord only. We are not to prove our salvation to anyone.

Hi again John, if that's true, then why did He give us commands like this one?

2 Corinthians 13​

5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​

God knows our hearts (not to mention that He's the one who declares us just), so such tests/self-examinations are hardly necessary for Him to see, rather, they are for us, for our benefit.

Also, Jesus chose to "prove" Himself to others did He not (for their benefit, of course)? When He, for instance, pronounced that someone's sins were forgiven (something that you can't see), He used miracles (that everyone could see) to prove who He was (God), and to demonstrate therefore that He had the authority to forgive our sins, even while He was still living among us here on earth.

Thanks!

~Deut