Abel's Offering vs Cain's

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● Heb 11:4 . . By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than
Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of
his gifts

● Heb 13:15 . . By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God
continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

The Greek word for "sacrifice" is the same in both those passages; and it's
the same word in the passage below too.

● Rom 12:1 . . I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God,
that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God,
which is your reasonable service.

That Greek word's ambiguity has to make us take a step back and figure out
just what kind of offerings Cain and Abel were okayed to bring that day--
animal or vegetable / bloody or non bloody / for their sins or not for their
sins / burnt offerings or non burnt offerings?
_

 

[dcontroversal]

Abel offered blood by faith which pointed to Christ.....

Jude compares false teachers to three men....ONE being Cain that offered his works <-----same thing the "MANY" offer....Jesus said he never knew them........

 

[Webers.Home]

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Abel offered blood by faith which pointed to Christ.....

The Greek word for "sacrifice" in Heb 11:4 is ambiguous. It doesn't
specifically identify blood sacrifices nor any other kind of sacrifice.

And to complicate matters even more; the Hebrew word for the brothers'
offerings in Gen 4:3-4 is ambiguous too. It appears dozens of times in the
Old Testament for all sorts of offerings: for bloody and for bloodless, for
mandatory and for voluntary, for sin and not for sin, and for tributes;
defined by Webster's as a gift or service showing respect, gratitude, or
affection.

Ancient rabbis understood the brothers' offerings to be a "firstfruits" kind of
oblation; which are typically wave offerings rather than burnt offerings. In
other words: wave offerings are in a special category; they are not meant to
be destroyed nor are they offered for sin.

T. And it was at the end of days, on the fourteenth of Nisan, that Kain
brought of the produce of the earth, the seed of cotton (or line), an oblation
of first things before the Lord; and Habel brought of the firstlings of the
flock. (Targum Jonathan)

Seeing as how Cain was a farmer, then in his case, an amount of produce
was the appropriate offering, and seeing as how Abel was an animal
husbandman, then in his case a head of livestock was the appropriate
offering.

Jude compares false teachers to three men....ONE being Cain that offered
his works

Neither Cain's works nor his offering are mentioned in Jude 1:11; it's his
"way" that's under the microscope.
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[dcontroversal]

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The Greek word for "sacrifice" in Heb 11:4 is ambiguous. It doesn't
specifically identify blood sacrifices nor any other kind of sacrifice.

And to complicate matters even more; the Hebrew word for the brothers'
offerings in Gen 4:3-4 is ambiguous too. It appears dozens of times in the
Old Testament for all sorts of offerings: for bloody and for bloodless, for
mandatory and for voluntary, for sin and not for sin, and for tributes;
defined by Webster's as a gift or service showing respect, gratitude, or
affection.

Ancient rabbis understood the brothers' offerings to be a "firstfruits" kind of
oblation; which are typically wave offerings rather than burnt offerings. In
other words: wave offerings are in a special category; they are not meant to
be destroyed nor are they offered for sin.

T. And it was at the end of days, on the fourteenth of Nisan, that Kain
brought of the produce of the earth, the seed of cotton (or line), an oblation
of first things before the Lord; and Habel brought of the firstlings of the
flock. (Targum Jonathan)

Seeing as how Cain was a farmer, then in his case, an amount of produce
was the appropriate offering, and seeing as how Abel was an animal
husbandman, then in his case a head of livestock was the appropriate
offering.



Neither Cain's works nor his offering are mentioned in Jude 1:11; it's his
"way" that's under the microscope.
_

Try again...the context is false teachers.....CAIN offered works, was rejected and is identified as a FALSE TEACHER......context makes this very clear........

ABEL had FAITH and the proof is in the pudding.....What did NOAH offer.....fruit or BLOOD...what did Abraham offer...plants or BLOOD (HIS SON)............God did not say when I see the grain or the produce I will pass over YOU....nor does Genesis 3:15 point to a grain OFFERING which had NOT even been established when Cain and Abel offered their offering.....geesh man how about some honesty

 

[dcontroversal]

And who cares what the ANCIENT rabbis thought or believed other than JESUS that was called a RABBI but did not name himself as such.....

 

[jimd]

The scripture clearly states faith was the deciding factor.

 

[dcontroversal]

The scripture clearly states faith was the deciding factor.

Faith in the spotless LAMB and BLOOD of said lamb.....the picture is clear as to me

 

[John146]

Faith in the spotless LAMB and BLOOD of said lamb.....the picture is clear as to me

Hebrews tells us that Abel by faith offered up a more excellent sacrifice than Cain. And we know that faith comes from hearing God’s word. It’s obvious that Abel and Cain knew what God desired as a sacrifice...the blood of a lamb, for God told them.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Leviticus 1 set up the burnt offering first, then in Lev 2 the various first fruits grain offerings, according to the order of offerings the two brothers offered and were accepted. God didn't reject Cain's (which was not evil), but accepted Abel's first in it's proper order. There are several reasons why the burnt offering should have come first in Genesis, Levitus, and concerning the order Jesus followed. That order is maintained throughout scriptures.

The grain offerings were first 1. uncooked seed 2. cooked seed 3. what to add and what to leave out 4. first fruits (whole seed head).

 

[Word_Swordsman]

#4 ought to have included "wave" offering of the stalk with seed head.

All of Lev 1-2 points to Jesus.

 

[Guojing]

That Greek word's ambiguity has to make us take a step back and figure out
just what kind of offerings Cain and Abel were okayed to bring that day--
animal or vegetable / bloody or non bloody / for their sins or not for their
sins / burnt offerings or non burnt offerings?
_

The confusing aspect was that, later on as spelt out in the law, you can also use fine flour as an offering, so it is not as if only blood sacrifice from lamb or sheep or cow is allowed to represent Jesus.

I guess we just need to take by faith that Abel pleased God with his offering, but Cain did not. Perhaps its the latter's attitude.

 

[Webers.Home]

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Hebrews tells us that Abel by faith offered up a more excellent sacrifice than
Cain. And we know that faith comes from hearing God’s word.

The word of God says the sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to The
Lord. (Prv 15:8)

In other words: offerings are accepted only when the person making the
offering is acceptable. For example:

"You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure
in burnt offerings." (Ps 51:16)

When David wrote that; he had only just committed the capital crimes of
adultery and premeditated murder. There was just no way that God was
going to accept David's sacrifices and offerings along with that; and he knew
it.

Cain's offering would've been accepted had he been a good man.

● Gen 4:7a . . If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

That is an irrevocable rule, and comes out very early in the Bible
because it is so foundational to humanity's association with its creator.

This is well illustrated by Isa 1:11-20.

The people were offering all the covenanted sacrifices, they were praying up
a storm, and observing all the feasts and holy days. He rejected all of it,
even though their God-given law required it because the people's personal
conduct was unbecoming. Christians are not exempt from this rule.

● 1John 1:5-6 . .This is the message we have heard from him and declare to
you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have
fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the
truth.
_

 

[posthuman]

Abel's sacrifice is specifically called out as of the firstlings.
There is no mention of firstfruits in the description of Cain's offering.

i think that's significant

 

[Webers.Home]

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Abel's sacrifice is specifically called out as of the firstlings.

The practice was later incorporated into the covenant that Moses' people
agreed upon with God at Mt. Sinai.

● Ex 13:1-2 . .The Lord said to Moses: Consecrate to me every firstborn
male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me,
whether man or animal.

i think that's significant

The thing to note is that firstborn offerings-- viz: firstlings -- are not, nor
have they ever been, sacrifices for sin; they're simply God's share of His
people's prosperity.
_

 

[Word_Swordsman]

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The word of God says the sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to The
Lord. (Prv 15:8)

In other words: offerings are accepted only when the person making the
offering is acceptable. For example:

"You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure
in burnt offerings." (Ps 51:16)

When David wrote that; he had only just committed the capital crimes of
adultery and premeditated murder. There was just no way that God was
going to accept David's sacrifices and offerings along with that; and he knew
it.

Cain's offering would've been accepted had he been a good man.

● Gen 4:7a . . If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

That is an irrevocable rule, and comes out very early in the Bible
because it is so foundational to humanity's association with its creator.

This is well illustrated by Isa 1:11-20.

The people were offering all the covenanted sacrifices, they were praying up
a storm, and observing all the feasts and holy days. He rejected all of it,
even though their God-given law required it because the people's personal
conduct was unbecoming. Christians are not exempt from this rule.

● 1John 1:5-6 . .This is the message we have heard from him and declare to
you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have
fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the
truth.
_

What fault was in Cain before fouling up the sacrifice? I don't see his issue as being "not a good man", but Abel's offering of blood did give Abel the required covering of blood to please God. Then Abel should have made "worship" offerings. Cain byassed the blood covering and attempted to please God with worship.

Cain didn't sin at that point, there being no law prescribing offerings. He should have taken God's counsel and learned a valuable lesson of what God respected.

 

[Webers.Home]

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What fault was in Cain before fouling up the sacrifice?

Cain's problem wasn't a specific fault; it was his way. (Jude 1:11)

There are Christians today whose manner of life is similar to Cain's. They're
religious enough to come to church on Sunday, and maybe even sing in the
choir and attend Sunday school; while the rest of the week do as they please
without any concern for how God might feel about what they're doing. They,
like Cain, are ruled by their base nature rather than make some effort to
control it.

● Gen 4:7 . . If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? If you do not
do what is right, sin is crouching at your door;

This is the very first instance in the Bible of the word "sin". The Hebrew word
is chatta'ah (khat-taw-aw') and/or chatta'th (khat-tawth') which are
ambiguous words that technically mean an offense; as in repeat offender. In
other words; not just an occasional slip-up, but a life style; viz: a habit.

At this point in the story; Cain was very close to stiffening his resolve (i.e.
hardening his heart) to the point where he would become permanently
estranged from God, and severed from His good graces.

● Gen 4:7b . . it desires to have you, but you must master it.

This is the first mention of self control in the Bible; and the requirement is
oft repeated; e.g.

● Col 3:5-8 . . Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly
nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is
idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in
these ways, in the life you once lived. But now you must rid yourselves of all
such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from
your lips.

● Rom 8:13 . . For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the
Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The death spoken of in that verse isn't the sum of all fears depicted at Rev
20:11-15. It's estrangement from God, and severance from His good graces.
(cf. John 15:1-6 where Jesus talks about yard debris.)
_

 

[Blik]

.
● Heb 11:4 . . By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than
Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of
his gifts

● Heb 13:15 . . By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God
continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

The Greek word for "sacrifice" is the same in both those passages; and it's
the same word in the passage below too.

● Rom 12:1 . . I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God,
that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God,
which is your reasonable service.

That Greek word's ambiguity has to make us take a step back and figure out
just what kind of offerings Cain and Abel were okayed to bring that day--
animal or vegetable / bloody or non bloody / for their sins or not for their
sins / burnt offerings or non burnt offerings?
_

The deciding factor relates to Christ. From the beginning of time salvation required the blood of Christ and it must have been made clear to Adam that it required the symbolic blood of Christ to attain salvation. All the 4,000 years the sacrificial system was in effect the people were not given the reason for this as we have been given, they were told about the sacrificial system and they obeyed on faith in the Lord.

Cain sacrificed based on his own works and we are told today it is not our works but our faith that is required. We are asked to obey, not to what we logically believe in but humbly to obey what we are told to do without requiring a reason why.

 

[oldethennew]

oh dear, what an 'odd' way of thinking you have/been influenced by...
anyway, let's pray that some will see this and question their own oddities
concerning our Saviour's ways that this fallen-world has distorted...

 

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The deciding factor relates to Christ.

Yeah sure. The story of Cain and Abel languished in the Old Testament for
centuries just waiting for the Christians to come along and spiritualize it.
They've gone and done the very same thing to Solomon's love song and
distorted its intended purpose too.
_

 

[Webers.Home]

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● Gen 4:5 . . So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.

In other words; instead of heart-broken by the rejection, Cain was
infuriated.

Well; no surprise there. That's how Cainish people react when their
friendship is refused on account of their conduct is unacceptable.
When anything said to them about their attitude; you just get the cold
shoulder because they want to be accepted just as they are.
_