Does James 2:17 Speak for All of the New Testament?

[newton3003]

The answer may well be, it depends on where you are. If you’re walking around, some may assert that James 2:17, which says “So…faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead,” applies to you. If you were a condemned criminal on the cross next to Jesus, and you accept Jesus as your savior and Jesus tells you that you will be in Heaven with him, as it says in Luke 23:39-43, that passage may not speak for you. Why? Because you would enter Heaven without having performed any works that would be a testament to your faith.

So there is no misunderstanding, the preceding passages, namely 14-16, say as follows: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, be warmed and filled,’ without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?”

And after James 2:17, James 2:18…20-23 says as follows: “But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works... Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness’—and he was called a friend of God.”

Both the condemned man on the cross and Abraham were rewarded for their faith. It seems the condemned man didn’t have to do anything except to show his faith in Jesus, and he gets a ticket to Heaven, whereas it wasn’t until Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac that God conferred His Grace on him in answer to his faith. At first glance it is ironic that the condemned man was devoted to evil and he gets an easy pass, whereas Abraham, who was devoted to doing good, was put through the mill before his faith in God was answered favorably.

As there may be no inconsistencies in the Bible, what do the condemned man and Abraham have in common in God’s eyes? By accepting the condemned man into Heaven, has God decreed, perhaps after Abraham, that you need not perform any good works to be accepted into Heaven? Has he decreed that you need not worry about what works constitute evil and what constitute goodness?

Perhaps it would help to add some perspective by taking the Old Testament into consideration. God in the Old Testament was harsh to His chosen people. For instance, a person in David’s time who transports an ark using oxen, sees the oxen stumble and the man holds the ark to steady it. For his efforts, God strikes him dead. Earlier than that, in Numbers, one of Moses people gathers sticks on the Sabbath. God tells Moses to put the man to death. What a difference between that, and the Pharisees who allowed gambling and trade to take place in God’s house of worship, an on the Sabbath no less! Did God have them put to death? No.

Considering the two events, had God become lax in conferring His Grace in New Testament times compared to Old Testament times? And it should be noted, as an aside, that the person who was put to death for gathering sticks may otherwise have had faith in God, but at that moment, perhaps because of the evil which prevailed on the world, he was given in to temptation. Here the man’s works, of gathering sticks, apparently destroyed whatever faith he otherwise may have shown in God.

Did God decide, in sending Jesus down to save the world, to put aside the harshness He levied upon His Chosen in the Old Testament? In sending Jesus down, did He try another tack, offering to confer his love if we accept Him, instead of His Wrath if we don’t? And if so, as with the condemned man, does God now assert that you need not do anything to obtain His Grace, so long as you express your faith in Him?

If that should be the case, the what is James 2:17 referring to? Some have said that works should be regarded as a “second act” following faith. The inference could well be that if you are in a position to perform ‘second acts’ following your expression of faith, and you do so, then your faith is alive. And if you’re not in a position to perform ‘second acts,’ like the condemned man on the cross, and you’ve run out of time, it is only then that your faith alone may receive God’s good Grace.

 

[garee]

The answer may well be, it depends on where you are. If you’re walking around, some may assert that James 2:17, which says “So…faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead,” applies to you. If you were a condemned criminal on the cross next to Jesus, and you accept Jesus as your savior and Jesus tells you that you will be in Heaven with him, as it says in Luke 23:39-43, that passage may not speak for you. Why? Because you would enter Heaven without having performed any works that would be a testament to your faith.

So there is no misunderstanding, the preceding passages, namely 14-16, say as follows: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, be warmed and filled,’ without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?”

And after James 2:17, James 2:18…20-23 says as follows: “But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works... Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness’—and he was called a friend of God.”

Both the condemned man on the cross and Abraham were rewarded for their faith. It seems the condemned man didn’t have to do anything except to show his faith in Jesus, and he gets a ticket to Heaven, whereas it wasn’t until Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac that God conferred His Grace on him in answer to his faith. At first glance it is ironic that the condemned man was devoted to evil and he gets an easy pass, whereas Abraham, who was devoted to doing good, was put through the mill before his faith in God was answered favorably.

As there may be no inconsistencies in the Bible, what do the condemned man and Abraham have in common in God’s eyes? By accepting the condemned man into Heaven, has God decreed, perhaps after Abraham, that you need not perform any good works to be accepted into Heaven? Has he decreed that you need not worry about what works constitute evil and what constitute goodness?

Perhaps it would help to add some perspective by taking the Old Testament into consideration. God in the Old Testament was harsh to His chosen people. For instance, a person in David’s time who transports an ark using oxen, sees the oxen stumble and the man holds the ark to steady it. For his efforts, God strikes him dead. Earlier than that, in Numbers, one of Moses people gathers sticks on the Sabbath. God tells Moses to put the man to death. What a difference between that, and the Pharisees who allowed gambling and trade to take place in God’s house of worship, an on the Sabbath no less! Did God have them put to death? No.

Considering the two events, had God become lax in conferring His Grace in New Testament times compared to Old Testament times? And it should be noted, as an aside, that the person who was put to death for gathering sticks may otherwise have had faith in God, but at that moment, perhaps because of the evil which prevailed on the world, he was given in to temptation. Here the man’s works, of gathering sticks, apparently destroyed whatever faith he otherwise may have shown in God.

Did God decide, in sending Jesus down to save the world, to put aside the harshness He levied upon His Chosen in the Old Testament? In sending Jesus down, did He try another tack, offering to confer his love if we accept Him, instead of His Wrath if we don’t? And if so, as with the condemned man, does God now assert that you need not do anything to obtain His Grace, so long as you express your faith in Him?

If that should be the case, the what is James 2:17 referring to? Some have said that works should be regarded as a “second act” following faith. The inference could well be that if you are in a position to perform ‘second acts’ following your expression of faith, and you do so, then your faith is alive. And if you’re not in a position to perform ‘second acts,’ like the condemned man on the cross, and you’ve run out of time, it is only then that your faith alone may receive God’s good Grace.

I think it is more a testament of His faith our Faithful Creator.

That portion is depentant on the opening commandment( not just a good suggestion) . Not to have the faith of Christ according to his three day labor of love in respect to oneself or others the eyes see. We walk or understands the unseen by faith, the unseen eternal.

Verse 7 bring the conclusion to the matter, Would not a person be attributing the work of Christ's faith to themselves and therefore blaspheme the holy name by which we are called? One work of faith the work is accredited to the right person then the rest of the chapter can flow as we come to the understanding of a imputed righteousness . It comes as the Spirit of Christ works in us yoked with us to both will and perform his good pleasure. The faith as a work used in that chapter is in respect to Christ alone. Not as Catholicism in respect to the Pope alone or other that Lord it over the flock. . Christ's faith as a work is imputed to us not from us.

James 2;1 King James Version (KJV) My brethren, "have not"(Commandment) the faith of (source of) our Lord Jesus Christ (as the labor of love) , the Lord of (source of) glory, with respect of persons. (as that in which the eyes see)

James 2;7 Do not they(that walk by sight) blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

Again its sets the stage for the whole chapter. when you see the word faith. Know it as it is wriiten (faith) belongs to him who works in these bodies of death,

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith (Christ's )without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith(Christ's ) wrought with his (Christ's )works, (working in Abraham and Rehab to both will and do the good pleasue of Christ. ) and by works (Christ's )was faith(Christ's ) made perfect? (Complete) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. James 2:20 -23

 

[Deade]

So there is no misunderstanding, the preceding passages, namely 14-16, say as follows: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, be warmed and filled,’ without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?”

Okay, bottom line is true faith should have a mission (feeding/clothing/warming your fellow man. I would be worried about that only if you didn't. That said, everything that crosses your path is so ordered by God. If you come across someone in dire need of food/shelter/clothes and shut him out it is like doing it to the Lord Himself. Got it?

 

[Blik]

The answer may well be, it depends on where you are. If you’re walking around, some may assert that James 2:17, which says “So…faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead,” applies to you. If you were a condemned criminal on the cross next to Jesus, and you accept Jesus as your savior and Jesus tells you that you will be in Heaven with him, as it says in Luke 23:39-43, that passage may not speak for you. Why? Because you would enter Heaven without having performed any works that would be a testament to your faith.

So there is no misunderstanding, the preceding passages, namely 14-16, say as follows: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, be warmed and filled,’ without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?”

And after James 2:17, James 2:18…20-23 says as follows: “But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works... Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness’—and he was called a friend of God.”

Both the condemned man on the cross and Abraham were rewarded for their faith. It seems the condemned man didn’t have to do anything except to show his faith in Jesus, and he gets a ticket to Heaven, whereas it wasn’t until Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac that God conferred His Grace on him in answer to his faith. At first glance it is ironic that the condemned man was devoted to evil and he gets an easy pass, whereas Abraham, who was devoted to doing good, was put through the mill before his faith in God was answered favorably.

As there may be no inconsistencies in the Bible, what do the condemned man and Abraham have in common in God’s eyes? By accepting the condemned man into Heaven, has God decreed, perhaps after Abraham, that you need not perform any good works to be accepted into Heaven? Has he decreed that you need not worry about what works constitute evil and what constitute goodness?

Perhaps it would help to add some perspective by taking the Old Testament into consideration. God in the Old Testament was harsh to His chosen people. For instance, a person in David’s time who transports an ark using oxen, sees the oxen stumble and the man holds the ark to steady it. For his efforts, God strikes him dead. Earlier than that, in Numbers, one of Moses people gathers sticks on the Sabbath. God tells Moses to put the man to death. What a difference between that, and the Pharisees who allowed gambling and trade to take place in God’s house of worship, an on the Sabbath no less! Did God have them put to death? No.

Considering the two events, had God become lax in conferring His Grace in New Testament times compared to Old Testament times? And it should be noted, as an aside, that the person who was put to death for gathering sticks may otherwise have had faith in God, but at that moment, perhaps because of the evil which prevailed on the world, he was given in to temptation. Here the man’s works, of gathering sticks, apparently destroyed whatever faith he otherwise may have shown in God.

Did God decide, in sending Jesus down to save the world, to put aside the harshness He levied upon His Chosen in the Old Testament? In sending Jesus down, did He try another tack, offering to confer his love if we accept Him, instead of His Wrath if we don’t? And if so, as with the condemned man, does God now assert that you need not do anything to obtain His Grace, so long as you express your faith in Him?

If that should be the case, the what is James 2:17 referring to? Some have said that works should be regarded as a “second act” following faith. The inference could well be that if you are in a position to perform ‘second acts’ following your expression of faith, and you do so, then your faith is alive. And if you’re not in a position to perform ‘second acts,’ like the condemned man on the cross, and you’ve run out of time, it is only then that your faith alone may receive God’s good Grace.

God operates our world according to strict laws, laws that cannot be changed or reasoned away. God is telling us of something as solid as telling us that the sun always rises. Even if we find out about this law that is of God when we are in a position like the thief on the cross or we find out about it when we are a young person just saved, it always applies to where we are.

Our actions or the time we learn this law does not affect the law, but the law affects our life. We either live within the law or we decide we will live a life that is not in harmony with it.

 

[garee]

God operates our world according to strict laws, laws that cannot be changed or reasoned away. God is telling us of something as solid as telling us that the sun always rises. Even if we find out about this law that is of God when we are in a position like the thief on the cross or we find out about it when we are a young person just saved, it always applies to where we are.

Our actions or the time we learn this law does not affect the law, but the law affects our life. We either live within the law or we decide we will live a life that is not in harmony with it.

That law is the law of faith. The question that must be asked is can we have the faith of Christ in respect to His labor of love rather in respect to one self? Or would that constitute blasphemy of the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God. ? . Could Abraham and Rehab have the faith of God in respect to their own selves? Or must it be in respect to the righteousness of Christ according to his work of faith alone....as imputed?

 

[MattforJesus]

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith, and faith, and hope are not needed in heaven, but love will go on forever, and faith works by love.

The greatest asset that a person can have is love, and without love there is no faith, and love must be done in works, which is charity.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Paul, and James, and John, all say the same thing, which Paul said he could have all faith so he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity then he is nothing, and James said without charity their faith is dead, and John said without charity the love of God does not dwell in them.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness(money, material things): from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Paul said if they preach that God blesses with money, and material things for their wants above their needs to withdraw yourselves from them.

For the love of money is the root of all evil, for it neglects the poor and needy, which is what it is all about loving people, which includes their needs, for love is the fulfilling of the law.

Charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

That is why works are important because it is love, which has to be done in works, for faith to be active in a person's life, for love is greater than faith, and God's kingdom is love.

Jesus addressed these 2 Churches concerning their works, and to do those works, and if not He would go against them for they do not abide in love like they should.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

But we know there are many people who claim Christ who are enjoying their wants, and being hypocritical, which we have heard of the prosperity Gospel, and television evangelists that live above their needs.

But then that is not love, and then faith is not active in their life.

As far as the thief on the cross, Jesus was not concerned with his works other than confessing Him, for what is the thief to do for he was on a cross.

But if someone has the means to help people, and they do not then that is not faith.

The Bible plainly states that a person is justified by works, and not faith alone, which Paul also agrees to that saying if he did not have charity he is nothing, and people that do not help the poor and needy if they can have erred from the faith, the same as James that said their faith is dead.

When Paul says we are not saved by works, but by faith, that is when we first confess Christ for we have not received the Spirit yet, so none of our works can save us, but only having faith, and confessing Christ, for that is all we can do.

But when we receive the Spirit then Paul says the same things as James.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Love is the fulfilling of the law so Jesus told the rich man that to inherit eternal life to keep the 6 commandments that have to do with loving people, do not offend them, but the rich man said he kept them, so Jesus said he lacked one thing, to sell all he has that is not a necessity, and give the money to the poor, and the he would be perfect for he would show love, and had the means to help them.

The early Church sold all they had that was not a necessity, and gave to the saints that were in need, and did not think what they had was their own, but had all things in common, which they shared everything.

Charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith, but many like to enjoy money, and material things, and their wants, and the world, so they will justify themselves.

 

[Blik]

That law is the law of faith. The question that must be asked is can we have the faith of Christ in respect to His labor of love rather in respect to one self? Or would that constitute blasphemy of the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God. ? . Could Abraham and Rehab have the faith of God in respect to their own selves? Or must it be in respect to the righteousness of Christ according to his work of faith alone....as imputed?

I am not following all of this, but it seems to me you are trying to say that one law affects another law when that is not true. The separate laws stand, one never cancels another.

It is true that it is only through Christ we have forgiveness, that forgiveness is not based on the way we make ourselves perfect through our work. It applies to us when we have faith in the work Christ did for us and we give our sins to Christ for this forgiveness.

It is true that if we have faith in Christ and all Christ tells us that we will be dead to sin and not make it part of our life.

These are two truths, they are not to be mixed up but are truths of the Lord, both of these truths. Christ did the work for us, but we die to our sins with Christ and we live on as sinless people, we give our wills over to Jesus. Even though our fleshly understanding pulls us into sinful thoughts they are against our will that we have given over to be led by the Holy Spirit and Christ.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The answer may well be, it depends on where you are. If you’re walking around, some may assert that James 2:17, which says “So…faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead,” applies to you. If you were a condemned criminal on the cross next to Jesus, and you accept Jesus as your savior and Jesus tells you that you will be in Heaven with him, as it says in Luke 23:39-43, that passage may not speak for you. Why? Because you would enter Heaven without having performed any works that would be a testament to your faith.

So there is no misunderstanding, the preceding passages, namely 14-16, say as follows: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, be warmed and filled,’ without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?”

And after James 2:17, James 2:18…20-23 says as follows: “But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works... Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness’—and he was called a friend of God.”

Under law they thought that as long as we keep the law outwardly then we are In good standing with GOD but Paul told them that they do the same thing as the gentiles do meaning that the gentiles broke the law Inwardly and outwardly but the Jews under the law thought breaking the law outwardly was the focus but GOD looks at the heart so then If the person Is not seen breaking the law ,that doesn’t mean they have the right Intention Inwardly.
+++
Romans 4:1-2
King James Version

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

 

[Guojing]

If that should be the case, the what is James 2:17 referring to? Some have said that works should be regarded as a “second act” following faith. The inference could well be that if you are in a position to perform ‘second acts’ following your expression of faith, and you do so, then your faith is alive. And if you’re not in a position to perform ‘second acts,’ like the condemned man on the cross, and you’ve run out of time, it is only then that your faith alone may receive God’s good Grace.

Your this point reminded me of John Wesley, who apparently share the same view as this. In his words

"But does not God command us to repent also? Yea, and to 'bring forth fruits meet for repentance'--to cease, for instance, from doing evil, and learn to do well? And is not both the one and the other of the utmost necessity, insomuch that if we willingly neglect either, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all? But if this be so, how can it be said that faith is the only condition of justification?" God does undoubtedly command us both to repent, and to bring forth fruits meet for repentance; which if we willingly neglect, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all: therefore both repentance, and fruits meet for repentance, are, in some sense, necessary to justification. But they are not necessary in the same sense with faith, nor in the same degree. Not in the same degree; for those fruits are only necessary conditionally; if there be time and opportunity for them. Otherwise a man may be justified without them, as was the thief upon the cross (if we may call him so; for a late writer has discovered that he was no thief, but a very honest and respectable person!) but he cannot be justified without faith; this is impossible. Likewise, let a man have ever so much repentance, or ever so many of the fruits meet for repentance, yet all this does not at all avail; he is not justified till he believes.

How John Wesley reconciled the thief on the cross, in my opinion, is based on this paragraph. Here is how I understand his argument:

1. Both faith and works are necessary for justification.
2. But faith is more necessary compared to works. Faith is necessary unconditionally/absolutely.
3. Works are only necessary in a conditional sense, provided there is time and opportunity to do them.
4. The thief on the cross had neither the time, nor the opportunity to do works, so he is excused from them.
5. For the rest of us however, we do not have that excuse, so works become necessary for our justification.

 

[garee]

I am not following all of this, but it seems to me you are trying to say that one law affects another law when that is not true. The separate laws stand, one never cancels another.

Amen (sorry in advance for the length.)

I would offer sometimes it is the little words that can give the greater power or take it away. The word of and in are two that can cause much confusion and violate one of the laws of interpretation which is not to add a new meaning to one word. (Blasphemy through plagiarism) It can change the authors intent. (Deuteronomy 4:3) This is unlike the warning at the end of the book of prophecy (Revelation) “Do not add or subtract from the perfect”. Therefore, protecting the integrity of our one source of faith (God's) the Bible. This is while it was being added to and the last, the seal completing the work. (7 seals) The number of perfect or complete.

It’s not when we have faith in him (ours new faith towards him previously having none zero. ) but rather that he faithfully works towards us ... working in us to both will and do His good pleasure. Therefore, we can believe as a anchor to our new souls

The imputed righteousness shown with Abraham and Rehab in that same chapter.

The new faith as a gift we offer towards Him is because the Spirit of Christ, as a labor of His love working in us…not of or from us .It is spoken of as the treasure of his authority/power in us not of us unless any man boast as if the creature was the source of faith. I would say that describes blasphemy. "attributing the work of one person to another". .

2 Corinthians 4:7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Again I would offer it is how we use and define the word "faith" as a unseen law . We know it must be capable of working out what it hopes for. or it proves their was no life to begin with. It seems many ignore the commandment which I beleive is not just good advice in verse 1 . It I beleive sets the stage for the rest of the chapter .

Then we have missed the purpose of the law and according to the commandment (do not have the faith of Christ which comes from hearing God through all things written in the law and the prophets in respect to humans. A person could be in danger of Blasphemy.

If we would blaspheme the name of Christ by having "his faith that works in us in respect to our own selves. That would be as if faith to believe in a unseen God originated with the creation (clay) natural unconverted mankind. Which is said by the Holy Spirit to have "no faith" none, zip nada.

Again, I offer the Bible defines faith as God's tool by which we can know Him. Not from us a source the imaginations of a mankind faithless heart. But according to our new hearts. Hearts given the desire to do the will of our unseen father, our Emanuel God with us.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Philippians 2:13

Note... (purple in parenthesis) my addition to emphasize my point or suggestion.

James 2;1 King James Version (KJV) My brethren, have not (Commandment) the faith of (coming from) our Lord Jesus Christ, (not of our own self) the Lord of (coming from) glory, with respect of persons. (humans)

James 2;7 King James Version (KJV) Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

The NIV completed destroys the idea that we are not to blaspheme the name of God by attributing the work of God's faithfulness as a imputed righteousness to what the eyes see.(self) Turning it into... "Don't have favorites" as if that was possible for mankind.

James 2 New International Version (NIV)2:1 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism.

James 2 English Standard Version (ESV)2 My brothers,[a] show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.

Those translation above have titles; “Favoritism Forbidden, Beware of Personal Favoritism and The Sin of Partiality”

Personally, I would title that chapter. The Sin of blasphemy… calling it what it is. .

You could say violtes the commandment that ends up as blasphemy it is attributing the imputed righteousness that came from a work of Christ’s faith or labor of love, Like for instance to Abraham and Rehab turning it upside down as did the faithless Jews That were used to represent un redeemed mankind as an outward Jew taking away the understanding of Him not seen. The true one source of Christian faith. .

 

[newton3003]

Amen (sorry in advance for the length.)...

Then we have missed the purpose of the law and according to the commandment (do not have the faith of Christ which comes from hearing God through all things written in the law and the prophets in respect to humans. A person could be in danger of Blasphemy...

If we would blaspheme the name of Christ by having "his faith that works in us in respect to our own selves...

-Makes no sense.

Under your scenario, if we obey God's commandment in Genesis to be fruitful, we'd be committing blasphemy. Under that scenario, anyone who asks God to help them live a life of righteousness is committing blasphemy.

Neither Jesus nor his disciples speak in terms of blasphemy, except when talking in terms of effectively following other gods. If they told prospective followers what you posted here, Christianity would have never gotten off the ground, IMO.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Abraham was told that his faith made him free years before he offered up his son. So this is not true. God did not wait.. God granted. Based on his faith.

All his work did was verify to the world his faith was real. Ass apposed to those who ClAIM to have faith, yet have NEVER done any work.

And yes, James applies to us, we have as many hearers only and not doers today who CLAIM to have faith as they did back then.

 

[newton3003]

Abraham was told that his faith made him free years before he offered up his son. So this is not true. God did not wait.. God granted. Based on his faith.

James 2:18…20-23 says as follows: “But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works... Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and FAITH WAS COMPLETED BY HIS WORKS; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness’—and he was called a friend of God.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James 2:18…20-23 says as follows: “But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works... Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and FAITH WAS COMPLETED BY HIS WORKS; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness’—and he was called a friend of God.”

Notice what Genesis 15 says

6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Abraham was saved at this moment

Also. See romans 4:

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our fathe has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

So you see. James can not contradict moses or Paul.

What james did, was say Abrahams faith was proven, or perfected when he worked.

Ones faith does not have to be perfected BEFORE a person is saved, God said faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. When Jesus healed a mans child. The man said he believed, but help him with his unbelief, and god answered his prayer.

James view is that if we are hearers only and not doers. Can this CLAIMED faith save someone? Of course, the answer is no. Why? True faith works. Dead faith does not work.

No one is saved because they believe, they are saved because they have living faith,

 

[Placid]

Hi,
Good discussion, but there is a Scripture that speaks about faith and works that is quite familiar to us. It is Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

As it says . we are saved by faith, and we can read it this way, --- 8 For by (God's) grace you have been saved through (your) faith, and that not of yourselves (not of anything you have done); it is the gift of God (a gift cannot be earned or paid for, or it is not a gift). 9 Not of works, lest anyone should boast.
--- A person can say, I know I'm saved, I believe in God, and 'Jesus paid it all,' so I will just rejoice in Him and wait for the rapture.

But the full text reads this way, 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Verse 10 starts with 'for,' which makes it dependant on what has been said before it. --- And Paul makes it personal by saying For 'we' are His workmanship (God's workforce), (re)created in Christ Jesus for (doing) good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
--- So God had a plan for us with the good works He prepared for us to do, and He drew us unto Himself until we accepted His salvation by faith, --- then God could give us our program of good works.

So faith comes first, but we are saved to serve. --- very simply, becoming a Christian comes with a work schedule.
But the blessings are in the doing.

--- If anyone settles down with verse 8-9 and doesn't know God's plan for their life, then their faith isn't producing anything, so it is dormant, dead, unfruitful, as James said, --- "Faith without works is dead," --- and 'good works' without Faith are just, 'good works.'
Blessings

 

[Blik]

Notice what Genesis 15 says

6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Abraham was saved at this moment

Also. See romans 4:

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our fathe has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

So you see. James can not contradict moses or Paul.

What james did, was say Abrahams faith was proven, or perfected when he worked.

Ones faith does not have to be perfected BEFORE a person is saved, God said faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. When Jesus healed a mans child. The man said he believed, but help him with his unbelief, and god answered his prayer.

James view is that if we are hearers only and not doers. Can this CLAIMED faith save someone? Of course, the answer is no. Why? True faith works. Dead faith does not work.

No one is saved because they believe, they are saved because they have living faith,

James is not contradicting the Lord as Paul reports God's ways or Moses reports God's ways. We are told clearly that God does no look at our acts or works when God gives us salvation. So we are told that it was the faith of Abraham that resulted in Abraham's salvation. James did not tell us any differently.

As we study Abraham's ways further, we find that becaise of this faith in the lord Abraham acted in certain ways. We know it must have taken complete faith in God to prompt Abraham to act the way he did. We can learn from that that faith results in actions. But it is still true that it is not the actions of Abraham that led to his salvation but the faith.

 

[garee]

-Makes no sense.

Under your scenario, if we obey God's commandment in Genesis to be fruitful, we'd be committing blasphemy. Under that scenario, anyone who asks God to help them live a life of righteousness is committing blasphemy.

Neither Jesus nor his disciples speak in terms of blasphemy, except when talking in terms of effectively following other gods. If they told prospective followers what you posted here, Christianity would have never gotten off the ground, IMO.

Hi thanks for the reply,

I would offer its under his law as a commandment. The commandment is the scenario. "Have not" the work of Christ's faith that works in the believer in respect to what the eyes see. .(the temporal) Not just good advice a commandment .

James 2:1 King James Version (KJV) My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.(temporal what the eyes see)

The conclusion if violated verse 7.

James 2:7 King James Version (KJV) 7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

Even Christ refused to stand in the holy unseen place of God and blaspheme the name of God . When called good master as a infallible teacher he gave glory to God unseen, Only God(not seen) is good . The place of faith as the hidden glory of God, reserved for the father.

The commandment in verse 1 makes perfect sense and under that scenario, verses (1-7) To violate that scenario as a commandment is clearly to blaspheme the name of our God.

Are you saying the word blasphemy should not be there? I think you might look again to see the how the word blaspheme is used. The use of the word gods represents our unseen nature as gods.( inner or spiritual man) .Not seen. In that we are gods in resect to what is not seen . Jesus taught on that when they accused him of blasphemy . The first commandment ...That we should have no other gods before him include our ourselves as new creatures in that way we have a obligation to the spirit In that way the flesh profits for nothing. I think that is what Jesus meant when the many that were hoping it was what could prophet no longer were disciples.

Personally from my experience its the "faith" issue as to how it is understood. I believe if understood properly the connection of how blaspheme applies is clear.

The idea of pitting James against Paul is the usual scenario when the words faith and works are in the same context. . Again not having a proper understanding of the word faith many divide works from faith rather than reconciling it as a work or labor of Love faithfully performed by God who does work in us to both will (faith) and do (perform) his good pleasure .

Faith is a work of believing something would happen. When our Faithful Creator said; "let it be" it was there just as he hoped. And he pronounced it good, as God alone not seen is . Some who believe not (no faith) say God does not need faith .

The book of Romans informs us what if some did not belief. Would it make the faith of God that does work in his children without effect. To effect something is to work it out. If we make the word of God the Christians the Christians source of faith to no effect How could we let God be true and every man a liar?

Again if the first 7 verses of James if not divided properly .The rest of the chapter loses the idea why we are not to look at the things seen in order to believe God is working. If He is working, the witness of his word will lead a person to seek his approval as part of His loving commandment to study to show ourselves approval of Him who has no form, the power of Him that works in us.(imputed righteousness)


The results when natural man does make "gods" in the in the likeness of men than rather the likeness of one God . Therefore not walking by the un-seen work of Christ's faith The apostles tore their cloth to indicate blasphemy. the fits the commandment in jame 2 not to. Many simply make it into a fashion statement for the day as with other doctrines..


And when the people saw (not mixing faith 2 Corinthian 4:18) ) what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,Acts 14: 12-14

 

[garee]

Good discussion, but there is a Scripture that speaks about faith and works that is quite familiar to us. It is Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

As it says . we are saved by faith, and we can read it this way, --- 8 For by (God's) grace you have been saved through (your) faith, and that not of yourselves (not of anything you have done); it is the gift of God (a gift cannot be earned or paid for, or it is not a gift). 9 Not of works, lest anyone should boast.
--- A person can say, I know I'm saved, I believe in God, and 'Jesus paid it all,' so I will just rejoice in Him and wait for the rapture.

Hi

The faith by which we are quickened as new creatures is the work of God as his labor of Love. We are not saved by a work of our faith previously having none zero nothing. The new faith we have received has quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; as always he as our first love does the first work as a labor of His love in us.

Ephesians 2 King James Version (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Again he must do the first works and give us His faith that does work as a imputed righteous The moment a person tries to divide Christ's faith from His works .They show themselves as having again no faith .(not a little NONE) It defines blasphemy as well as violating the first commandment.

A "work of faith" is the key. No faith coming from God. No faith to offer towards Him.( cause and effect, .Just and justifier)

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith

Froward generation is the same discription of a evil generation the one that sek after waht the eys see not rightlfilly divided according to the perscriptions given by which we can hear God God not seen

 

[mailmandan]

James 2:18…20-23 says as follows: “But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works... Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and FAITH WAS COMPLETED BY HIS WORKS; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness’—and he was called a friend of God.”

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works (which is like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit) and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith "made perfect" or "complete" by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

 

[garee]

Abraham was told that his faith made him free years before he offered up his son. So this is not true. God did not wait.. God granted. Based on his faith.

Hi
I would offer.

Yes, the faith of God. He is of one mind and always does exactly what His soul desires. He performs that which is appointed to us (Philippian 2:12 as a imputed righteousness. The imputed gets lost in most cases from what I have seen it like men forget it is God who can make their hearts soft.

Based on the faith of coming from God. Not Abraham who was reckoned as have "no faith" prior to the hearing of the word of God. (the hearing of God's faith)

Note... (Purple in parenthesis) my added comment.

My brethren, have not(Commandment) the faith of (coming from)our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons( that in which the eyes see "neither Rehab or Abraham") James 2;1 King James Version (KJV). …….

If a person violates the warning the outcome is sure...

James 2 King James Version (KJV)7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

God granted Abraham . Based on his own faith. The faith of God. Not the imputed faith of Abraham separate from the faith of Rehab. They share the mutual faith of Christ which worked in both. Just as it works in us today. The same mutual faith of Christ that alone comes from hearing God not seen. A God who reveals himself through scripture. Not through Rehab or Abraham or even the Son of man who refused to stand in the holy place of the father. . We have the power of his authority in us but never to assume it could be of Abraham or Rehab. Its not the faith coming from Rehab and Abraham but a supernatural

The faithless Jews that we used to represent unbelief in mankind used that kind of idea to turn things upside down and try and make it about the flesh.... what the eyes see rather that the spiritual seed , Christ. In doing so they made the understanding of faith without effect.

We are saved by the work of Christ's faith. If we were to have the mutual faith of Christ in respect to men seen, the temporal .Then we have blasphemed the name of God. Even Jesus refused worship in respect to the things seen his own flesh. he when tempted called good master gave glory to the unseen father and said only God is good.

I think it is why he uses two witness in James. The unbelieving Jew had destroyed the true witness as to the use of the word Abraham, they violated the opening commandment of James 2..and made that seen Abraham into Our father in heaven not seen, by the oral tradition of the fathers. It pronounced the judgment of unbelief against mankind. The flesh of the Jew was used both ways either to represent belief (faith) a blessing, or unbelief (no faith) a curse.

Again both Rehab and Abraham. They had no faith of their own by which they could believe God. The faith below is of Christ if we would attribute the work to either Rehab or Abraham we have in affect made the faith of Christ without effect.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works ( Christ's) , when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by (Christ's works working in them to both will and perform his good pleasure his faith is made perfect). works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.James 2:20

I think in that way we can reconcile .Paul and James. That salvation is not without the works that came from Christ the Faithful and True one. It was imputed unto him by the father for righteousness not us we have none of our own. The father and the Son working together in perfect harmony brings the peace of God that surpasses any understanding we could have in the flesh.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.