Your Bible translation

Endoscopy · May 17, 2019

Pascha" meant Easter in the first century

There is no doubt that "Πάσχα" means Easter in modern Greek. The charge, however, is that "Πάσχα" did not mean Easter until centuries after the composition of Acts 12:4. This is not true. In the Gospel of John there is already a distinction being made between the Christian Πάσχα and the Jewish Πάσχα. One of the words for Passover in modern Greek is "Πάσχα των ιουδαίων" (Passover of the Jews). We see this same phrase already in the time of John the Apostle:

John 2:13: "And the Jews' passover was at hand...." (και εγγυς ην το πασχα των ιουδαιων)
John 11:55: "And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand...." (ην δε εγγυς το πασχα των ιουδαιων)

The fact that John writes, "Jews’ Pascha (πασχα των ιουδαιων)" indicates that there was a need to qualify the word "Pascha" for the immediate audience of John's Gospel. Such a phrase would be redundant unless there were already a distinction between a "Jew's" Paschaand "another" Pascha. Apparently within the first century, Christians had already appropriated the word "Pascha" to refer to the Christian celebration of the resurrection.

Eusebius' testimony is clear that the Apostles were already celebrating the "Saviour's Pascha", which is clearly not the "Jews' Pascha":

"Ζητήσεως δῆτα κατὰ τούσδε οὐ σμικρᾶς ἀνακινηθείσης, ὅτι δὴ τῆς Ἀσίας ἁπάσης αἱ παροικίαι ὡς ἐκ παραδόσεως ἀρχαιοτέρας σελήνης τὴν τεσσαρεσκαιδεκάτην ᾤοντο δεῖν ἐπὶ τῆς τοῦ σωτηρίου πάσχαἑορτῆς παραφυλάττειν, ἐν ᾗ θύειν τὸ πρόβατον Ἰουδαίοις προηγόρευτο, ὡς δέον ἐκ παντὸς κατὰ ταύτην, ὁποίᾳ δἂν ἡμέρᾳ τῆς ἑβδομάδος περιτυγχάνοι, τὰς τῶν ἀσιτιῶν ἐπιλύσεις ποιεῖσθαι, οὐκ ἔθους ὄντος τοῦτον ἐπιτελεῖν τὸν τρόπον ταῖς ἀνὰ τὴν λοιπὴν ἅπασαν οἰκουμένην ἐκκλησίαις, ἐξ ἀποστολικῆς παραδόσεως τὸ καὶ εἰς δεῦρο κρατῆσαν ἔθος φυλαττούσαις, ὡς μηδ' ἑτέρᾳ προσήκειν παρὰ τὴν τῆς ἀναστάσεως τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν ἡμέρᾳ τὰς νηστείας ἐπιλύεσθαι" (Church History, Book V, 23:1)

"A question of no small importance arose at that time. For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour's passover. It was therefore necessary to end their fast on that day, whatever day of the week it should happen to be. But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this time, as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the resurrection of our Saviour." (Church History , Book V, 23:1, Translation from www.newadvent.org)

Those who deny that "Πάσχα" came to mean "Easter" in Apostolic times are unable to explain when the shift in meaning arose. There is no record of councils or debates documenting the shift in the meaning of "Πάσχα" in Greek. There is also no logical reason for the shift in meaning to take place over hundreds of years. As far back as we can document, Greek Christians have accepted that "Πάσχα" refers to the celebration of the Lord's resurrection, which is "Easter". Given John's use of the word and the uncontradicted testimonies of early church fathers, it is far more candid to accept that "Πάσχα" already meant "Easter" in the first century. In the Bible, "Πάσχα" means Passover only when used by Jews or by anyone specifically referring to the Jewish celebration. In passages prior to Christ’s resurrection, the KJV translates “Πάσχα” as “Passover” because the narrators and characters are still referring to the Jewish festival. The only times the KJV translates “Πάσχα” as “Passover” after the resurrection are in 1 Corinthians 5:7 and Hebrews 11:28. In 1 Corinthians 5:7, the word "passover" refers to the passover lamb rather than the day of the year, so it is correctly translated "passover". In Hebrews 11:28, the narrative refers retrospectively to Moses' conduct, which was before the resurrection, so the word is properly translated "passover". The following diagram explains these distinctions visually:

View attachment 198675

The scripture states that Jesus was crucified during Passover week. Passover starts and ends with a yearly Sabbath. Thus the confusion many have about the tomb being empty on Sunday morning. They try to conflate 3 days and 3 nights to Friday evening to Saturday evening instead of a yearly Sabbath being involved and end up being confused.

Endoscopy · May 17, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

You are making a very wrong assertion about the reasons for the translations. KJV was a decent translation in 1611. The biggest problem with KJV is language changes over the years and environmental knowledge has increased. What follows is a file I keep about the problems with the KJV translation. Understanding these facts allows the reader to understand the it better. One commandment in KJV states "Thou shalt not kill." in modern translations it is "You shall not murder." in 1611 kill meant first degree murder.
--------------------------
For example, because of the changes in the English language, a number of words occur in the King James that make zero sense to most people today. These include the following nuggets that you will find scattered here and there:

Almug
Algum
Charashim
Chode
Cracknels
Gat
Habergeon
Hosen
Kab
Ligure
Neesed
Nusings
Ouches
ring-straked
sycamyne
trow
wimples, ….

The King James translators also translated some animal names into animals that in fact we now have pretty good reason for thinking don’t actually exist:

unicorn (Deut. 33:17)
satyr (Isa 13:21);
dragon (Deut 32:33) (for serpent)
cockatrice (Iswa 11:8),
arrowsnake (Gen 49:11, in the margin).

Moreover,, there are phrases that simply don’t make sense any more to modern readers: Phrases that no longer make sense:

ouches of gold (Exod. 28:11);
collops of fat (Job 15:25);
naughty figs (Jer 24:2);
ien with (Jer. 3:2);
the ground is chapt (Jer 14:4);
brazen wall” (Jer 15:20);
rentest thy face (Jer. 4:30);
urrain of the cattle (Exod. 9:2);

And there are whole sentences that are confusing at best, virtually indecipherable (or humorous)

And Jacob sod pottage (Gen 25:29)
And Mt. Sinai was altogether on a smoke (Exoc. 19:18)
Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing (Ps. 5:6)
I trow not (Luke 17:9)
We do you to wit of the grace of God (2 Cor. 8:1)
Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels (2 Cor. 6:12)
He who letteth will let (2 Thes 2:7)
The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd (Eccles. 12:11)

Other sentences make sense, but would today be considered somewhat problematic – at least for the sacred Scripture. My favorite is the one that refers to one who: “Pisseth against the wall:…. 1 Sam 25:22, 34, I Kings 14:10!
(this phrase is used instead of the word man. NIV uses the word man)

posthuman · May 17, 2019

perhaps the first actual mention of the word Eostre / Easter is from the Venerable Bede, in his treatise "De ratione temporum" written probably early 700's AD -

In olden time the English people -- for it did not seem fitting to me that I should speak of other people's observance of the year and yet be silent about my own nation's -- calculated their months according to the course of the moon. Hence, after the manner of the Greeks and the Romans (the months) take their name from the Moon, for the Moon is called mona and the month monath.

The first month, which the Latins call January, is Giuli; February is called Solmonath; March Hrethmonath; April, Eosturmonath; May, Thrimilchi; June, Litha; July, also Litha; August, Weodmonath; September, Halegmonath; October, Winterfilleth; November, Blodmonath; December, Giuli, the same name by which January is called. ...

Nor is it irrelevant if we take the time to translate the names of the other months. ... Hrethmonath is named for their goddess Hretha, to whom they sacrificed at this time. Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance. Thrimilchi was so called because in that month the cattle were milked three times a day...

i'll see if i can find a scan of an original; it's either Latin or Greek.
Bede connects the name of the month ((based on a lunar calendar, mind you, not the Julian one)) with the goddess Eos. this kind of throws a lot of the speculation of the word Eostare being derived from the cardinal direction or from some sanskrit word for resurrection etc.

it is much more likely, IMO, that in fact the German word for East was derived from the name of the goddess, who was associated with the planet Venus etc which is seen in the east during spring. not the other way around. to be clear: it makes waaay more sense that the pagan goddess came first, and the name of the direction came later, being named in connection with her. it doesn't make sense to me that people -- who have since the beginning known that God exists and have committed idolatry since very early on -- would have a word for a cardinal direction and then later start worshiping a demoness and call her by a pre-existing name of the direction.

of interests in this citation is that Bede connects Eostre with 'Paschal month' -- confirming the conclusion i have been drawing from the other things i've found here and shared, that the early church being divided over whether the Lord's resurrection should be remembered according to the calendar the Lord Himself gave or whether in some other way, had the will of the Roman leadership imposed on it at Nicea & supplanted Passover with 'their own passover' by changing the date and associating new traditions with it. they equivocated this contrived holy day with Pascha, as though they were one and the same, and claimed that they had received this from the apostles and that it had always been the custom of the church. we know however both from the record of the controversy itself and from historians such as Socrates that it was not true that this 'imposter Pascha' was handed down by the apostles, neither in the day & calendar of its observation nor in the rites and traditions that became associated with it.

fredoheaven · May 17, 2019

posthuman said:

This is in so far an assumption since Matthew 26:2 as compared to the KJV English is but the same using the Gothic Bible but not to the Luther bible.

While the Gothic of Wulfilas in 350 AD had no surviving records of the book of Acts, nevertheless, it has a greater support for the reading of the KJV more than Newer English versions so Acts 12:4 is assumed to support the English KJB as well. This to give you 3 witness as an examples for consideration.

The Gothic in Ephesians 3:14 has “fraujin unsar Iesuis Xristaus which the KJB has but were omitted in the Newer English Versions. Heres the full quote of Ephesians 3:14 in þis biuga kniwa meina du attin fraujins unsaris Iesuis Xristaus, — τούτου χάριν κάμπτω τὰ γόνατά μου πρὸς τὸν πατέρα, — For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/browse/text/?book=8&chapter=3

The Gothic does support KJB also in 1 Cor. 16:22 with “fruijen Iesu Xristu, again omitted in the other English versions

Corinthians I 16:22 jabai hvas ni frijoþ fraujan Iesu Xristu, <sijai> anaþaima: maran aþa. — εἴ τις οὐ φιλεῖ τὸν κύριον, ἤτω ἀνάθεμα. μαρανα θα. — If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

http://www.wulfila.be/gothic/browse/text/?book=6&chapter=16

Phil. 4:13 has Xristau = Christ in the KJV where newer English versions failed to have.

Philippians 4:13 all mag in þamma inswinþjandin mik Xristau. — πάντα ἰσχύω ἐν τῷ ἐνδυναμοῦντί με. — I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

In this manner, a greater weight of witness may favor to the reading of the KJV in Acts 12 even though it is only assumed.

fredoheaven · May 17, 2019

posthuman said:

The Ostern (Eastern) view of Luther

Luther may have got it right in translating the Gk. Pascha in Acts 12:4 in German as ‘Ostern’. The German ‘ostern’ is plural in nature as per OED, that might reference to the resurrection since the East, Eastre, Easter view is from GMC Austrium cognate wih Skr ursd meaning morning or dawn cognitive to the rising or resurrection or yet in a possible Bede’s derivation with the German goddess of fertility all of which names in combination whether known Istar, Astarte, Astaroth etc. being fertility goddesses as their common characteristics and the least of the Jewish passover.

. The Ostern, East, or Easter view then is correct in the KJV comparing to Luther which actually the KJ translators had one they diligently compared of in the subject being discussed.

posthuman · May 17, 2019

fredoheaven said:

you've missed my point.

other Germanic Bibles extant from 1400's and up have 'oster' in Matthew 26, indeed in every instance in the NT.
there is a pattern in Germanic language Bibles of replacing Pascha with Easter ubiquitously -- Luther simply carried this on.
so it is significant that an early Germanic Bible -- pre Nicene council -- has Paska in it at all in the NT. because of the way the Germans translated in the middle ages it is still very informative to see that they did not have the same pattern in the 3rd century.

the rest of your post is a bit irrelevant to what i've been trying to research. however any Bible in any language translates Philippians 4:13 is totally immaterial to whether 'easter' is a legitimate translation of pascha or a legitimate change in the times and seasons God ordained and Christ both kept & chose to give Himself to fulfill.

quite bluntly, if you insist to change the name of the Lord's feast days, i consider it is impossible to defend the change of the time. so i hope that if you observe the day, you celebrate 'easter' by a lunar calendar or at the very least acknowledge the fact that you're not keeping the day according to the time that God described it should be counted.

please don't get me wrong; either way is fine with me: i don't presume to judge anyone over it ((re: Romans 14)). it is just that as for me, i would rather know the truth than put my faith in a translation. that's why i'm scouring the web for digitized ancient documents rather than taking some wiki-page or biased apologetic blog as gospel.

posthuman · May 17, 2019

fredoheaven said:

as i put earlier:

it seems to me far more likely that the goddess Eos pre-existed the word for 'east' ((or ost)) and that the direction was named after her, than it is that a goddess was named after a direction.

the etymology of the English word 'east' is that it is derived from the German.
ask yourself if ancient Goths named the cardinal points before or after they served pagan idols?

i'd be interested if you can find some proof. i disagree with your speculation.

fredoheaven · May 17, 2019

fredoheaven said:

posthuman said:

Paska is actually a Gothic word, a part of German tribe speaking people that is already an extinct in German language. Paska totally means the Passover and that is without a doubt but my contention is that we don’t know if Wulfilla had its translation over the Acts 12:4 as paska since we have no surviving records of it. Accordingly, Nasra is the Gothic word for the Easter and I assumed this to be the very word used by Wulfilla since his Bible gained more support for the KJB rather than the many newer English Bibles.

Easter in Gothic
translation and definition "Easter", English-Gothic Dictionary online
add translation
Easter
IPA: /ˈiː.stɚ/, /ˈiː.stə/; Type: noun;

𐍀𐌰𐍃𐌺𐌰 { proper }
Christian holiday

https://glosbe.com/en/got/Easter

fredoheaven · May 17, 2019

I also read the Paschal sermon of John Chrysostom yet somehow speaks of the resurrection and not the Jewish passover this time. Here is the link:

https://earlychurchtexts.com/main/johnchrysostom/paschal_sermon.shtml

Lanolin · May 18, 2019

I think if the words seem strange, just use a dictionary to help you.
That way you will learn more words. Its good to have a challenge, if the Bible didnt challenge us with words that are unfamiliar or seemingly old fashioned ...after all it is ancient, well it wouldnt really be the Bible would it. It would be like a cover version of the Bible. You want to be as close to the origninal as you can. Well thats how I see it.

Most people that read get better at comprehension by reading regularly and often.
I wonder if other languages have as many different bible versions as the English translations have. Or is it just peculiar to the english language?

At least we dont have to read the Bible in latin that nobody even speaks anymore.

FollowHisSteps · May 18, 2019

As far as translations go, going back to the greek or hebrew is interesting.

Comparing them, also highlights the differences in sources, and interpretation.
A for instance is the word "perfect" which could be translated "mature"

In our culture they are different in meaning except this is not necessarily obvious.

posthuman · May 18, 2019

fredoheaven said:

that's not 'Nasra' that's "Paska"

first letter is pairthra, like Greek capital Pi, not an N.
fourth letter is kusma like Greek capital Kappa, not an r.

Gothic has a letter N 'nauths' and it looks just like our N or Greek Nu.
Gothic has a letter R 'raida' and it does look similar to Kusma but with a longer first stroke like a dagger, going beneath the rest of the line.

the word is Paska

the dictionary you quoted is another example of the equivocation made between the Lord's passover and the day called 'Easter'
if we accept that they are indeed equivalent then two points are raised:

the church is guilty of having 'changed the times and seasons' because the modern day Easter/Pascha is calculated by the vernal equinox rather than the moon and is forced to be on a Julian calendar 'sunday' --- in 45 AD for example, when Acts 12 takes place, per a ((admittedly rough)) calculation it fell 35 days before Passover as the scriptures indicate we ought to calculate took place.

if this day is observed as the day of His resurrection it is conflated with the feast of Firstfruits, because Christ was crucified on passover and raised on Firstfruits. so to say He resurrects on Pascha is to confess that Luke is correct to refer to the whole series of feasts from the days of unleavened bread through passover through firstfruits as "Pascha" ---- thus eliminating John146's argument about why Herod would be waiting since passover is before the days of unleavened bread.

lolo4 · May 18, 2019

Don1980 said:

This is a good thread. My parents gavve me a revised standard version in 1964, when I was 6. It still has the same smell it did when I opened it for the first time. It is falling apart, and I have re-taped it several times.

We didn't read the Bible in my home, my father did, but my mother was not comfortable with that, so we kind of kept it to ourselves.

She bought us each a "Good News Bible"- which, even back then, I thought it was poorly written.

My favorite is New International Version. We use that at the Anglican church I attend.

The New Jerusalem Bible is also good, and I have read that one through too.

Endoscopy · May 18, 2019

lolo4 said:

My Bible is my smartphone. I have a page in my browser set to biblegateway.com. It allows me to set book and chapter. Then I can select any translation I want. This way I can compare the translations and get a better understanding of that particular scripture. I mostly use NIV, ESV, KJV, and AMPC. Sometime others as well.

fredoheaven · May 19, 2019

posthuman said:

It seems then that you are helping me in my case that my incomplete knowledge of Nasra = Paska and paska can be translated as easter and not only Passover yet again this is being contested.

In my opinion, you are against what the dictionaries says whether OED or to some unbiased references I posted. Here to summarize our view relative to the subject:

Heb. Pesach and Gk. Pascha Latin Pascha according to the dictionaries can be both translated as Passover and easter. Yet you are saying it is only Passover.
That Gk. Pascha means resurrection which I believe as the genuine Easter. This well attested in the many dictionaries including John Chrysostom Paschal Address/Sermon which talk about the risen Lord and that this view predates Bede of 750AD by many decades not to discount what the bible says of the day dawn rising, yet this is being discounted.
That Easter refers to the “birth” or worship of fertility goddesses as per OED and many other references being ascribed by venerable Bede to have its derivation from paganism. This meaning to me is correct only that it is the counterfeit of the genuine Easter yet this is being contested since pascha only means “Passover”.

As my previous post a Greek word can be translated in the English in various ways with variant meaning dependent on it context and that will not contradict the bible and I hope this time we go to the context of the Bible to see fit what is the precise translation or exact English word either Pascha be an Easter or Passover in Acts 12:4. I asked why Pascha here is Passover. Would you by the context explain your view?

Thanks

fredoheaven · May 19, 2019

posthuman said:

What you are trying to say is here is that the days of unleavened bread is the same as the Feast of the unleavened bread? Have you considered Luke 22:1 the Feast of the unleavened bread which is the Passover? but in Acts 12 says the days of the unleavened bread?
What about that one?

Thanks Post...

posthuman · May 19, 2019

fredoheaven said:

these dictionaries are written long after the conflagration / replacement happened around 1700 years ago in 325 AD
their definitions reflect 1700 years of misuse of the terms.

the Greek pascha does not mean resurrection i don't know where you're pulling that information from. that is just plain factually incorrect. Greek for resurrection is anastasis -- go look up John 11:25, Jesus did not say "I AM the Easter"

Ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ἀνάστασις

does that say pascha anywhere? no. it doesn't. if you insist it does then you need to also go change the rest of the Bible.

Greek Pascha is a direct transliteration of the Hebrew for Pesach. it is not a Greek word in origin at all; it is an Hebrew word incorporated into the Greek language and it means to pass over. the same is true of Latin -- Pachal / Pascha was transliterated into Latin it is not a Latin word with some other etymology. same is true for French, for Gothic, for Italian, etc.
High German replaces the Gothic transliterated word with 'Ostern' and English does with 'Easter' -- but this 'feast day' bears no relation to Pascha as defined in the scripture even though the Roman church equivocated it. as late as the 8th century when the word Eostare is first recorded in the English language, and is having something to do with the month Pascha takes place in, Bede still calls it 'Pachal month' -- not using the word Eostare to refer to the feast at all but remarking that it is a word named after a pagan goddess.

you don't have an argument, Fred.
someone preaching about Christ's resurrection is to be expected. Christ rose. it doesn't change etymological facts.
you don't have sound logic, Fred.

if anyone in the world used the word Easter in the 1st century they were saying Eostare and it was definitely referring to a dawn goddess, not Jesus.
Luke used the word Pascha. for 1500 years every Bible in any language faithfully used the word Pascha or a transliteration of it.
somewhere in the dark ages the Germanic peoples around the throne of the holy roman empire exchanged it for 'Oster' and they did it throughout the whole NT.
Tyndale IMO heavily influenced by Luther here, replaced the word God had written, Pachal / Pascha, with 'Easter' throughout the entire Bible in English.
this is obviously an over-reaching attempt to delete the Jewish connection to the feast day that Christ chose to offer Himself on and replace it with a completely invented one. Constantine said as much in his letter to the Nicene council: his wish was to totally separate the day of remembrance of Christ's resurrection from its Hebraic basis -- which happens to be the scriptural basis.
Pascha is scriptural.
Christ rising on firstfruits is scriptural.
Eostare is not scriptural. neither in the day it is observed nor in the customs and traditions with which it is observed not in the name.
the KJV of Acts 12 simply preserves that same legacy of changing the times and seasons.

keep whatever day you want, so long as you keep it to the Lord. idc. you're not condemned by keeping it or by not.
but i personally would rather be informed of the truth, and i'd rather be right. i wouldn't exchange the truth for loyalty to a translation -- but that's just me.

Poinsetta · May 19, 2019

The Amp

Endoscopy · May 19, 2019

Jesus according to the Gospels was crucified during Passover. Passover begins and ends with an annual Sabbath. This allows for the fact he was crucified the day before a Sabbath and rose on a Sabbath having the empty tomb on Sunday. That means counting backwards he was crucified on Wednesday. In the tomb Thursday, Friday and rose Saturday late afternoon. Thus the empty tomb Sunday morning. Thursday being an annual Sabbath. The last day of the Passover week.

NayborBear · May 20, 2019

fredoheaven said:

I see what you are doin'. Although, am not certain as to the "why" of it. Save for "educational" purposes.
Seems you are either knowingly, or unknowingly, (or willingly ignorantly) explaining, and/or justifying, and/or teaching, concerning the "apostasy", handed down, and gaining speed, over the course of history. Likening it, rather to (a) New and Improved "Gospel". In other words? Showing readers how TRADITIONS of Man, have made void the Word of God.
All this is just over the matter/s concerning Passover!
Gives a very legitimate cause in a believer's wondering, if this has been done regarding Passover?
What "other" ways concerning He who sent Christ, have been altered, and/or DELIBERATELY "mistaught" over this present earth/heaven age?
Or better yet? How is one to "amend" for, or start "FILLING the void", traditions of man have dug a hole through to the bottomless pit (void) for us?

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Banned Serpent Seed Heresy