Why forever torment in Hell?

[Ahwatukee]

he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Luke 3:17

burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire
matt 3:10

collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned
matt 13:30

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire
matt 13:40

such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned
John 15:6

5 examples of the lost being taken, and burnt up, not tormented eternally.
This is not human reason, this is scripture.

Other examples are weeping and nashing of teeth, awaiting destruction, and
being thrown into the eternal fire. Our experience of fire is it burns things up
and destroys them. So every mention of being thrown into the fire can be taken
as meaning this, unless otherwise stated.

The above is not true! You are leaving out other important details of scriptures, such as the fact that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked, with both receiving resurrected bodies. The righteous will be raised immortal and glorified, where the wicked will receive a resurrected body mete for their punishment, i.e. a body that cannot be destroyed by fire, which is supported by the scripture which says, "the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever. And they will have no rest day or night." In order for this to be true, the individual must exist in order to experience said torment and for it to rise up. Think of it as a fire proof body with the flames licking at it, but unable to consume said body. You also have to ask you self the question, why would God give the wicked a resurrected body if they are just going to be burned up?

I would also turn your attention to the phrase "unquenchable fire" which is in reference to those who are in it. Otherwise, if everyone is burned up in the lake of fire on contact, once the last person is thrown in there would be no reason to keep the fire's going.

"Depart from Me you curst into everlasting fire, prepared for Satan and his angels." Rev.20:10 states that Satan is cast into the Lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown and they will be tormented day and night forever and every, as will all those who have rejected Jesus Christ and who's names will have not been written in the book of life. Everyone, including Death and Hades, will exist in torment in the lake of fire.

Also, your claim that fire burns everything up is true here in the physical world, but there is a certain rich man who would disagree with you of whom he himself said, "I am in torment in this flame." He's in Hades, which is a temporary place of punishment until the great white throne judgment and he wasn't burned up, but is still there suffering the same torment.

We always have to consider all scripture regarding any given subject. And regarding this subject we have the descriptive words of everlasting, eternal, forever and ever, no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment rising forever and ever. These alone should give us the understanding that God's punishment for sin against and eternal and Holy God, is never ending. There is no scripture that directly states that punishment is temporary. On the contrary, it is referred to as everlasting, forever and ever, eternal.

 

[crossnote]

he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Luke 3:17

burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire
matt 3:10

collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned
matt 13:30

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire
matt 13:40

such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned
John 15:6

5 examples of the lost being taken, and burnt up, not tormented eternally.
This is not human reason, this is scripture.

Other examples are weeping and nashing of teeth, awaiting destruction, and
being thrown into the eternal fire. Our experience of fire is it burns things up
and destroys them. So every mention of being thrown into the fire can be taken
as meaning this, unless otherwise stated.

Your examples were taken from parables, try this one on...not a parable...

says:
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:9-11)

 

[FollowHisSteps]

The above is not true! You are leaving out other important details of scriptures, such as the fact that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked, with both receiving resurrected bodies. The righteous will be raised immortal and glorified, where the wicked will receive a resurrected body mete for their punishment, i.e. a body that cannot be destroyed by fire, which is supported by the scripture which says, "the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever. And they will have no rest day or night." In order for this to be true, the individual must exist in order to experience said torment and for it to rise up. Think of it as a fire proof body with the flames licking at it, but unable to consume said body. You also have to ask you self the question, why would God give the wicked a resurrected body if they are just going to be burned up?

I would also turn your attention to the phrase "unquenchable fire" which is in reference to those who are in it. Otherwise, if everyone is burned up in the lake of fire on contact, once the last person is thrown in there would be no reason to keep the fire's going.

"Depart from Me you curst into everlasting fire, prepared for Satan and his angels." Rev.20:10 states that Satan is cast into the Lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown and they will be tormented day and night forever and every, as will all those who have rejected Jesus Christ and who's names will have not been written in the book of life. Everyone, including Death and Hades, will exist in torment in the lake of fire.

Also, your claim that fire burns everything up is true here in the physical world, but there is a certain rich man who would disagree with you of whom he himself said, "I am in torment in this flame." He's in Hades, which is a temporary place of punishment until the great white throne judgment and he wasn't burned up, but is still there suffering the same torment.

We always have to consider all scripture regarding any given subject. And regarding this subject we have the descriptive words of everlasting, eternal, forever and ever, no rest day or night and the smoke of their torment rising forever and ever. These alone should give us the understanding that God's punishment for sin against and eternal and Holy God, is never ending. There is no scripture that directly states that punishment is temporary. On the contrary, it is referred to as everlasting, forever and ever, eternal.

Hi Ahwatukee,

Let me try and be specific. We will get a new resurrected body, as believers. I have not found a verse that
says how the dead will be judged, with a body or not.

The verses I quoted specifically stated the chaff is burnt up, the weeds are burnt up, the branches are
burnt up. Now if you have a belief that nothing is burnt up, all are eternally tormented, you have a
problem.

I am holding some are tormented eternally, those who received the mark of the beast.
The rest are punished, and then destroyed. These propositions are in scripture.

The dead could be given a mortal body.

From my perspective I trust God, and am happy whatever He has planned, because I trust and love Him,
and know whatever He does it is appropriate.

So it is obvious the verses I have quoted support what I am proposing. To suggest they are wrong, you
need to explain why the verses suggest the lost are burnt up. Do this and I can agree with you, or else
I have to go with the word of the Lord.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Your examples were taken from parables, try this one on...not a parable...

says:
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:9-11)

Hi cross,

You do not read what I have written. Those who accept the mark of the beast are tormented
eternally, but not others.

This verse demonstrates to emphasis those who accept the mark are tormented eternally,
means the others are not, or else there is no difference in how God handles them compared
to sinners. God bless you.

 

[crossnote]

Hi cross,

You do not read what I have written. Those who accept the mark of the beast are tormented
eternally, but not others.

This verse demonstrates to emphasis those who accept the mark are tormented eternally,
means the others are not, or else there is no difference in how God handles them compared
to sinners. God bless you.

I read what you wrote to Ahtwa, but you wrote that just before or after I posted, then I read it.
In any case, you have no other grounds for making that distinction except human reasoning. I see nowhere in Scripture than there is an eternal punisment for the mark takers and annihilation (destruction) for all others, rather...

Revelation 20:11-15 KJVS
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I read what you wrote to Ahtwa, but you wrote that just before or after I posted, then I read it.
In any case, you have no other grounds for making that distinction except human reasoning. I see nowhere in Scripture than there is an eternal punisment for the mark takers and annihilation (destruction) for all others, rather...

Revelation 20:11-15 KJVS
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Luke 3:17

burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire
matt 3:10

collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned
matt 13:30

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire
matt 13:40

such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned
John 15:6

The above verses show sinners being burnt up.
As far as I am concerned this resolves a lot of issues in relation to those who
are not morally responsible are not going to heaven or being tormented eternally.

I one holds love and grace are not Gods key attributes but justice and any sin deserves
eternal torture, I see this perspective, but it is not mine or that which I read in scripture.
God bless you.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Luke 3:17

burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire
matt 3:10

collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned
matt 13:30

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire
matt 13:40

such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned
John 15:6

The above verses show sinners being burnt up.
As far as I am concerned this resolves a lot of issues in relation to those who
are not morally responsible are not going to heaven or being tormented eternally.

I one holds love and grace are not Gods key attributes but justice and any sin deserves
eternal torture, I see this perspective, but it is not mine or that which I read in scripture.
God bless you.

Ignoring scripture. I have read people saying branches that whither on the vine are not
picked up and thrown in the fire, but supported and given a chance at eternal life.

I mention this because it is not in scripture, but some are happy to invent a version that
the words do not speak of.

I am not putting any spin on Gods words but quoting what it says. It is obvious when people
would rather have their own version, when they cannot accept the simple words as they are
written. But we have a problem of authority, and it is Gods word that speaks through the
Holy Spirit, and I have found in my heart it has always been resolved, even when I found it
difficult. God bless you.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ignoring scripture. I have read people saying branches that whither on the vine are not
picked up and thrown in the fire, but supported and given a chance at eternal life.

I mention this because it is not in scripture, but some are happy to invent a version that
the words do not speak of.

I am not putting any spin on Gods words but quoting what it says. It is obvious when people
would rather have their own version, when they cannot accept the simple words as they are
written. But we have a problem of authority, and it is Gods word that speaks through the
Holy Spirit, and I have found in my heart it has always been resolved, even when I found it
difficult. God bless you.

But what you are doing, is teaching a false teaching by claiming that that God's word says that eternal punishment is temporary for some and annihilation for others. I'm sure that there would be plenty of people who would be ok with that judgment, which would be no judgment at all. On the other hand, if one eternally exists, conscious and aware and separated from God in torment in flame, then it would certainly be a big issue. By your teaching, you could give some hope in the judgment that you are claiming. People who are reading your claim in the background.

We have more and more people committing suicide these days and that because they are under the impression that when they kill themselves, they will become non-existent, escaping from whatever problems that they were having in life. According to what you are claiming, if people were to just be burned up, then they would be getting exactly what they wanted in the first place, i.e. to be non-existent. However, the truth of the matter is that, as soon as those not in Christ kill their bodies, like the rich man, they find themselves in Hades in torment in flame. They quickly find that whatever was bothering them in this life greatly pales in comparison to the problems of torment in flame, with no hope of escape.

As I said before, the information regarding the rich man and Lazarus demonstrates on-going torment in flame for the rich man. This truth is lost when people interpret this scripture as being a parable. And many people do just that and then ask for proof, when they just got rid of it.

 

[crossnote]

he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Luke 3:17

burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire
matt 3:10

collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned
matt 13:30

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire
matt 13:40

such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned
John 15:6

The above verses show sinners being burnt up.
As far as I am concerned this resolves a lot of issues in relation to those who
are not morally responsible are not going to heaven or being tormented eternally.

I one holds love and grace are not Gods key attributes but justice and any sin deserves
eternal torture, I see this perspective, but it is not mine or that which I read in scripture.
God bless you.

Lu 3:17 & Mat 3:10 says 'unquenchable fire', that is fire that has no stop in burning.

 

[Crustyone]

Ahwatukee, this is some of what you wrote above in post 21,
Think of it as a fire proof body with the flames licking at it, but unable to consume said body. You also have to ask you self the question, why would God give the wicked a resurrected body if they are just going to be burned up?

I would also turn your attention to the phrase "unquenchable fire" which is in reference to those who are in it. Otherwise, if everyone is burned up in the lake of fire on contact, once the last person is thrown in there would be no reason to keep the fire's going.

My thoughts: The evil people won't have immortal bodies, because only those in the first resurrection will be so blessed.
It Makes sense to me that the reason God will give the wicked a mortal body is that he will keep it alive in the flames until the person has paid his sinful debt. There evidently will also be some evil people who will not be raised up according to Daniel 12:2

Many of those who sleep
in the dusty ground will awake –
some to everlasting life,
and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence. (From Net Bible)

Notice the word, "many" instead of "all". I guess these suffered enough from possibly torture to have paid their debt already.

As to the "unquenchable fire", check out the Hebrew words that Isaiah used for the fire in the Lake of Fire in Isaiah 66:24 and the Hebrew words in Jeremiah 17:27 that say that the gates will burn and no one will be able to put the fire out and finally Ezekiel 20:47 that say the forests will burn and the fire will not be extinguished. I think they all use the same words for these fires. Unless I read it wrong all three of these fires burn the same way. They won't be extinguished until the fuel, bodies, gates and forests are completely consumed and no one will be able to put them out until then.

 

[garee]

But what you are doing, is teaching a false teaching by claiming that that God's word says that eternal punishment is temporary for some and annihilation for others. I'm sure that there would be plenty of people who would be ok with that judgment, which would be no judgment at all. On the other hand, if one eternally exists, conscious and aware and separated from God in torment in flame, then it would certainly be a big issue. By your teaching, you could give some hope in the judgment that you are claiming. People who are reading your claim in the background.

We have more and more people committing suicide these days and that because they are under the impression that when they kill themselves, they will become non-existent, escaping from whatever problems that they were having in life. According to what you are claiming, if people were to just be burned up, then they would be getting exactly what they wanted in the first place, i.e. to be non-existent. However, the truth of the matter is that, as soon as those not in Christ kill their bodies, like the rich man, they find themselves in Hades in torment in flame. They quickly find that whatever was bothering them in this life greatly pales in comparison to the problems of torment in flame, with no hope of escape.

As I said before, the information regarding the rich man and Lazarus demonstrates on-going torment in flame for the rich man. This truth is lost when people interpret this scripture as being a parable. And many people do just that and then ask for proof, when they just got rid of it.

First and foremost hell is already defined as a "living work" of suffering like that of Cain..... the restless (no sabbath rest) wanderer as a marked man . Jonah is shown by reason of his affliction unto the Lord, suffering the tribulation of hell .

Jonah 2:2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Out of the suffering of hell cries the believers ,

Luke is clearly a parable of unbelief suffering a living hell while a person can work to suffer. When a person dies if they have not received a new spirit they will not rise on the last day and receive a new incorruptible body .
The smoke of the torment they received on earth as restless wanderers like that of Cain who suffering a hell living was relentless, while they lived. It can be compared to the suffering of hell with Jonas. Jonas like the Son of man were delivered on the third day. .

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receives thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead .Luke 17: 19-31

Its simply a lesson on walking by faith looking to the things seen to represent the unseen eternal "If they hear and not see Moses (walking by sight) and the prophets, (sola scriptura) neither will they be persuaded, though one seem rose from the dead"

Christ proved that by raising from the dead. They still refuse to believe Moses and the prophets. But are hoping their own flesh could profit for something.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

But what you are doing, is teaching a false teaching by claiming that that God's word says that eternal punishment is temporary for some and annihilation for others. I'm sure that there would be plenty of people who would be ok with that judgment, which would be no judgment at all. On the other hand, if one eternally exists, conscious and aware and separated from God in torment in flame, then it would certainly be a big issue. By your teaching, you could give some hope in the judgment that you are claiming. People who are reading your claim in the background.

We have more and more people committing suicide these days and that because they are under the impression that when they kill themselves, they will become non-existent, escaping from whatever problems that they were having in life. According to what you are claiming, if people were to just be burned up, then they would be getting exactly what they wanted in the first place, i.e. to be non-existent. However, the truth of the matter is that, as soon as those not in Christ kill their bodies, like the rich man, they find themselves in Hades in torment in flame. They quickly find that whatever was bothering them in this life greatly pales in comparison to the problems of torment in flame, with no hope of escape.

As I said before, the information regarding the rich man and Lazarus demonstrates on-going torment in flame for the rich man. This truth is lost when people interpret this scripture as being a parable. And many people do just that and then ask for proof, when they just got rid of it.

Let me separate teaching from the word of God. I am looking at what the parables are saying,
and the book of revelation. I am not saying what the ultimate conclusion is, other than there are
these positions, and some do not fit.

You talk about judgement, as if judgement is the reason why people are moral, or loving or kind.
It is clear love is innate within people. And judgement is not the ultimate issue, it is our contradictions,
and desires that war against that which we know is good and true.

Suicide is happening because of despair and depression. And the answer to despair and depression is love
and care, through the cross, through knowing the creator desires that we might have His life in our hearts.

Judgement is also not what terrifies people, it is worries about what the future holds, and the conflicting
outcomes and loneliness due to broken relationships, that no longer make sense. Anxiousness and medication
to make normal life more livable is the growing epidemic. People have lost the ability to relate and care for
one another, because they are too cut off through wealth and too selfish to realise they are doing this to
themselves.

Abraham and the flames, are interpreted by many to be hades, a temporary suffering until the punishment
for their time on earth is paid, and then destruction.

So unfortunately, I understand the arguments, but I also stand by scripture and its clear intent. Justice is an
eye for an eye, suffering for suffering, a mortal existence for a temporary experience of the same but at the
receiving end of suffering rather than the giving end.

I have seen the terror of death in many peoples eyes. It is sad, and often with confusion and despair. When Jesus
says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, it summarises what is left of a person who never made sense
in their life, and all they know is this knoring pain. If you have ever suffered from depression, it is a kind of
continuous hell, which never goes away. And punishment is barely something that makes sense of the disaster
they have become, which is why I have always wondered at the desire for hell torment for eternity of those who
have so many dysfunctional problems in their life and development that never resolved.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Lu 3:17 & Mat 3:10 says 'unquenchable fire', that is fire that has no stop in burning.

Revelations says the lake of fire will torment the beast, satan and his angels, along with all those who
took the mark of the beast for all eternity. So the fire is eternally a mark against the eternal who turn
against the creator and destroy themselves.

 

[garee]

Let me separate teaching from the word of God. I am looking at what the parables are saying,
and the book of revelation. I am not saying what the ultimate conclusion is, other than there are
these positions, and some do not fit.

You talk about judgement, as if judgement is the reason why people are moral, or loving or kind.
It is clear love is innate within people. And judgement is not the ultimate issue, it is our contradictions,
and desires that war against that which we know is good and true.

Suicide is happening because of despair and depression. And the answer to despair and depression is love
and care, through the cross, through knowing the creator desires that we might have His life in our hearts.

Judgement is also not what terrifies people, it is worries about what the future holds, and the conflicting
outcomes and loneliness due to broken relationships, that no longer make sense. Anxiousness and medication
to make normal life more livable is the growing epidemic. People have lost the ability to relate and care for
one another, because they are too cut off through wealth and too selfish to realise they are doing this to
themselves.

Abraham and the flames, are interpreted by many to be hades, a temporary suffering until the punishment
for their time on earth is paid, and then destruction.

So unfortunately, I understand the arguments, but I also stand by scripture and its clear intent. Justice is an
eye for an eye, suffering for suffering, a mortal existence for a temporary experience of the same but at the
receiving end of suffering rather than the giving end.

I have seen the terror of death in many peoples eyes. It is sad, and often with confusion and despair. When Jesus
says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, it summarises what is left of a person who never made sense
in their life, and all they know is this knoring pain. If you have ever suffered from depression, it is a kind of
continuous hell, which never goes away. And punishment is barely something that makes sense of the disaster
they have become, which is why I have always wondered at the desire for hell torment for eternity of those who
have so many dysfunctional problems in their life and development that never resolved.

I would agree with the conclusion of receiving the end of suffering from the beginning rather than the giving end and then judgment .The wage of sin is death. We live in a body of death. In dying we carry out the first death A dead body is evidence a person has been under the wrath of God revealed from heaven the eye witness all have sinned and continue to fall short of the glory of God .

2 Corinthians 6:9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

Would you say it much match salvation in a similar way receiving the end from the beginning.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:9-11

 

[crossnote]

Revelations says the lake of fire will torment the beast, satan and his angels, along with all those who
took the mark of the beast for all eternity. So the fire is eternally a mark against the eternal who turn
against the creator and destroy themselves.

It must be fun to make up doctrine, like I said, Mt 3:10 and Luke 3:17 use the term 'unquenchable fire' irregardless of the subjects.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I would agree with the conclusion of receiving the end of suffering from the beginning rather than the giving end and then judgment .The wage of sin is death. We live in a body of death. In dying we carry out the first death A dead body is evidence a person has been under the wrath of God revealed from heaven the eye witness all have sinned and continue to fall short of the glory of God .

2 Corinthians 6:9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

Would you say it much match salvation in a similar way receiving the end from the beginning.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:9-11

"Would you say it much match salvation in a similar way receiving the end from the beginning."

Not sure what this means, other than the wages of sin is death, not eternal life of torment.

Jesus called judgement the 2nd death,

28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One
who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10

Humans kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. In hell ones soul is destroyed.
Destruction does not imply torture, but taking that which is alive and killing it.

I suppose those who believe Jesus meant torture the soul, then equally killing the
body would mean torturing the body, which clearly it does not mean, because when
we are killed we die, we stop being aware of anything and so therefore cannot be
tortured.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

It must be fun to make up doctrine, like I said, Mt 3:10 and Luke 3:17 use the term 'unquenchable fire' irregardless of the subjects.

10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good
fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matt 3

17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat
into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Luke 3

Make up doctrine? If one wants doctrine to dictate what clearly the verses say.
"burn up" is to destroy something
When you burn a tree, you do not expect it not to burn, to be flame resistant, to just
dwell in the flames.

I know the dilemma within between what one believes or accepts and what the source of
faith says. Which determines ones faith? Man or God?

If sinners are chaff, they will be destroyed. Simple.

 

[crossnote]

10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good
fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matt 3

17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat
into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Luke 3

Make up doctrine? If one wants doctrine to dictate what clearly the verses say.
"burn up" is to destroy something
When you burn a tree, you do not expect it not to burn, to be flame resistant, to just
dwell in the flames.

I know the dilemma within between what one believes or accepts and what the source of
faith says. Which determines ones faith? Man or God?

If sinners are chaff, they will be destroyed. Simple.

Do you know what 'unquenchable' means as in 'unquenchable fire'? Luke 3:17

 

[FollowHisSteps]

As I stated before I do not have a position to hold or defend.
If God chooses to torture all for all eternity, fine, if He spares them all, fine.
What I am interested in is what do the scriptures say.

If it says one individual is burn up, then not all suffer torment for eternity.
And this is the point. I just need one example, not 10 or 20, just one example.

What concerns me is people are keener to dump everyone in hell, burning forever because they
are hurt and upset, and want revenge, and this seems just to them. But as much as Gods heart goes
out to the ophans, widows, and oppressed who suffer terribly, why would God create more suffering
beyond that will is normal as payment for this injustice and sin?

And heaven is not missed because Hell is so terrible, Hell is so terrible, because heaven and being
with the Lord is the best experience a human can ever have. And sinners are so dysfunctional, they
are aware of their potential and vaguely how badly it has all gone wrong, but without a new heart,
a new creation is Jesus they are just a mess. And I mean a total wreck, where nothing makes sense,
it is only pain and weeping, just horrendous anticipation. I suspect some here are not that far from
this also, considering the totally contradictatory positions they are taking in comparison to walking
in love and faith in the Lord.

Have you read of Korahs rebellion? A leader in Israel coming out against Moses and Aaron, claiming
God was on his side.

What did God do? The ground opened up and swallowed him, and all those offering rebellious offerings,
were burn alive by fire.

This is how dysfunctional sinful man gets.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Do you know what 'unquenchable' means as in 'unquenchable fire'? Luke 3:17

Hi cross,

To me unquenchable is a fire that cannot be put out. How do you interpret it?