Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus said,

Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning and ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their Lord, when he will return from the wedding Lk.12:35-36

This was his instruction to the Apostles (the bride in part).

The "proleptic 'you'" that I posted about.

Paul uses the same [same idea, "proleptic 'you'"] when he wrote to/for/about "the Church which is His body" (I just made a post or two, on that)... he was not saying "you Corinthians ONLY [am I talking about]," in that example ("betrothed you [proleptic 'you' (and corporate 'you')] to one Husband") but the entire "Church which is His body" (since its existence on the earth Eph1:20-23 WHEN, and not before then); or like when he had said "we which are alive and remain unto...," this is speaking to/for/about "the Church which is His body" (the portion that will still be ALIVE at the point in time of our Rapture); so the "proleptic 'you'" (or, 'we') basically means "all those in the future of the same category," and in this Luke 12 passage it is the same as [what I've pointed out about] the Olivet Discourse [promised TO ISRAEL]. Jesus was still speaking to them about their promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (and had not yet introduced things pertaining to the [Truths surrounding] "the Church which is His body," its position, its doctrine, its privileges, its hopes, etc... (He really said very little, re: that, before His later UPPER ROOM Discourse--Some things it was necessary to be keep "hidden"/"hidden in God"/unrevealed/undisclosed until AFTER His death/crucifixion, 1Cor2:8).

Keep in mind that Jesus had also told "the 12" that they would "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" (Lk22:30,16,18 and Matt19:28 [compare this verse with Matt25:31-34 for its TIMING]), but Amill-teaching (and the like) has no further place in God's scheme of things, for Israel, after [such and such a time, whichever their view says regarding them]...

I've stated that "the Day of the Lord [time period] STARTS (at INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]") at the "DARK" portion (of its entire span) [and that FOLLOWS our Rapture], so this passage fits this description as well:

--["in the twinkling of an eye" is, I've read, an idiom that means "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, at sundown"--this is at our Rapture, AND THEN "the Day of the Lord [time period]" will be thereafter PRESENT to unfold upon the earth, over the 7-yrs/70th-Wk]

--"IN THE NIGHT" (the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" with its "man of sin" and ALL he is slated to do over those 7 yrs)

--"DARK"/DARKNESS" (Amos 5:18,20)

--Lk12 mentions "keep your lamps burning"... "[if...] he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch"... (and "in what hour the thief would come, he would have watched [*G1127 - egrēgorēsen ], and not have suffered his house to be broken through"--which verse is completely distinct from what 1Th5:10 is communicating to/for/about "the Church which is His body" and our Rapture! [*see below])

--V.36 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal

--V.40 ALL "Son of man cometh" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK [elsewhere, aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS"]

--at the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period (INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]") per 1Th5:2-3, what FOLLOWS AFTER that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" is MANY MORE "birth PANG [PLURAL]" (that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse, and which parallel the "SEALS" of Rev6 at the START of the trib/at the START of when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE"<--we will not be on the earth for that, we will have other tasks to be doing, which I touched on in earlier posts)

--other things I could also point out, but even this much probably won't be carefully examined



*G1127 [to/for/about "the Church which is His body" context] -

1 Thessalonians 5:6 V-PSA-1P
GRK: λοιποί ἀλλὰ γρηγορῶμεν καὶ νήφωμεν
NAS: as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
KJV: but let us watch and
INT: rest but we should watch and we should be sober

1 Thessalonians 5:10 V-PSA-1P
GRK: ἵνα εἴτε γρηγορῶμεν εἴτε καθεύδωμεν
NAS: that whether we are awake or
KJV: that, whether we wake or sleep,
INT: that whether we might watch [G1127] or we might sleep [same word, here as well, as in v.6, too (not shown in the above "clip")]

[bold, underline and brackets mine]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT: "what FOLLOWS AFTER that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" is MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (that Jesus spoke of..."

 

[dcontroversal]

What's man made is that once you're dead, you're stay dead. You act like the Jewish leaders and Pontius Pilate defeated Jesus.

Is that all you have to offer...some idiotic flippant remark.......of course...you have no truth...end of story!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It seems like what "journeyman" is saying is that he thinks "resurrection" [for the believers] takes place every time a person [believer] DIES (am I reading you right, journeyman?), but that's not what 2 Corinthians 5:2-3 is telling us. And it would seem like Paul would have been giving a false word at 2 Timothy 2:18 if this were actually the case. It's incorrect though. "Resurrection" involves our bodies, of course [though "glorified"/"perfected" at that future time], and Jesus' own body is the prototype, so to speak (Phil3:20-21)

 

[Journeyman]

The "proleptic 'you'" that I posted about.

Paul uses the same [same idea, "proleptic 'you'"] when he wrote to/for/about "the Church which is His body" (I just made a post or two, on that)... he was not saying "you Corinthians ONLY [am I talking about]," in that example ("betrothed you [proleptic 'you' (and corporate 'you')] to one Husband") but the entire "Church which is His body" (since its existence on the earth Eph1:20-23 WHEN, and not before then); or like when he had said "we which are alive and remain unto...," this is speaking to/for/about "the Church which is His body" (the portion that will still be ALIVE at the point in time of our Rapture); so the "proleptic 'you'" (or, 'we') basically means "all those in the future of the same category," and in this Luke 12 passage it is the same as [what I've pointed out about] the Olivet Discourse [promised TO ISRAEL]. Jesus was still speaking to them about their promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (and had not yet introduced things pertaining to the [Truths surrounding] "the Church which is His body," its position, its doctrine, its privileges, its hopes, etc... (He really said very little, re: that, before His later UPPER ROOM Discourse--Some things it was necessary to be keep "hidden"/"hidden in God"/unrevealed/undisclosed until AFTER His death/crucifixion, 1Cor2:8).

Keep in mind that Jesus had also told "the 12" that they would "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" (Lk22:30,16,18 and Matt19:28 [compare this verse with Matt25:31-34 for its TIMING]), but Amill-teaching (and the like) has no further place in God's scheme of things, for Israel, after [such and such a time, whichever their view says regarding them]...

I've stated that "the Day of the Lord [time period] STARTS (at INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]") at the "DARK" portion (of its entire span) [and that FOLLOWS our Rapture], so this passage fits this description as well:

--["in the twinkling of an eye" is, I've read, an idiom that means "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, at sundown"--this is at our Rapture, AND THEN "the Day of the Lord [time period]" will be thereafter PRESENT to unfold upon the earth, over the 7-yrs/70th-Wk]

--"IN THE NIGHT" (the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" with its "man of sin" and ALL he is slated to do over those 7 yrs)

--"DARK"/DARKNESS" (Amos 5:18,20)

--Lk12 mentions "keep your lamps burning"... "[if...] he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch"... (and "in what hour the thief would come, he would have watched [*G1127 - egrēgorēsen ], and not have suffered his house to be broken through"--which verse is completely distinct from what 1Th5:10 is communicating to/for/about "the Church which is His body" and our Rapture! [*see below])

--V.36 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal

--V.40 ALL "Son of man cometh" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK [elsewhere, aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS"]

--at the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period (INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]") per 1Th5:2-3, what FOLLOWS AFTER that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" is MANY MORE "birth PANG [PLURAL]" (that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse, and which parallel the "SEALS" of Rev6 at the START of the trib/at the START of when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE"<--we will not be on the earth for that, we will have other tasks to be doing, which I touched on in earlier posts)

--other things I could also point out, but even this much probably won't be carefully examined



*G1127 [to/for/about "the Church which is His body" context] -

1 Thessalonians 5:6 V-PSA-1P
GRK: λοιποί ἀλλὰ γρηγορῶμεν καὶ νήφωμεν
NAS: as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
KJV: but let us watch and
INT: rest but we should watch and we should be sober

1 Thessalonians 5:10 V-PSA-1P
GRK: ἵνα εἴτε γρηγορῶμεν εἴτε καθεύδωμεν
NAS: that whether we are awake or
KJV: that, whether we wake or sleep,
INT: that whether we might watch [G1127] or we might sleep [same word, here as well, as in v.6, too (not shown in the above "clip")]

[bold, underline and brackets mine]

It sounds like you're saying Israel and the church are two separate bodies.

 

[Journeyman]

Is that all you have to offer...some idiotic flippant remark.......of course...you have no truth...end of story!

I wasn't being flippant, but you were when you said,

dcontroversal said
Jesus must not remember

But Jesus said,

You would have no authority over me at all, unless it was given to you from above Jn.19:11

So in reality, Jesus was above Pilate.

Don't you know I have the authority to release you, and to crucify you?" Jn.19:10

Pilate didn't have power to kill the God who created him.

the people imagine vain things...Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel
Act.4:25,27

 

[Journeyman]

It seems like what "journeyman" is saying is that he thinks "resurrection" [for the believers] takes place every time a person [believer] DIES (am I reading you right, journeyman?),

No. Believers were dead before coming to Christ.

I tell you the solemn truth, a time is coming - and is now here - when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Jn.5:25 (This is the 1st resurrection)

Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
and will come out - the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation. Jn.5:29 (This is the 2nd resurrection)

Your belief that being raised from death pertains only to the physical isn't correct.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It sounds like you're saying Israel and the church are two separate bodies.

"The Church which is His body" is made up of Jews and Gentiles, and wherein there is NO DISTINCTION in our standing before God IN Christ.

Earlier in the thread (I think) I provided a link showing where ALL 73 instances of the word "Israel" in the NT mean "Israel".

I've pointed out the distinction between "Israel" and "the Gentiles" (which, after our Rapture [the Rapture which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body,") Scripture shows that "Israel" and "the Gentiles" remain "distinct" (as they enter the MK age, that is, "the righteous" will, from each of these). I've mentioned how Romans 9-11 covers the Subject of "nations" ("Israel [singular nation] and "the Gentiles [plural nations]," and that Rom9:26/Hos1:10 speaks of "Israel" [especially their "present" as compared to their "future"], whereas Rom9:25/Hos2:23b speaks of "the Gentiles" [their "present"]; and how that Romans 11:25-29 speaks of Israel's "future" [compared to their "present"] [recall I said the "olive tree" (chpt 11) represents "God's governmental ways upon the earth" and that presently Israel is "Lo Ammi," but that their "blindness [or, 'hardening']" will be lifted at a specific time (that is, "blindness... UNTIL"). And that the following passage speaks of Israel's future (as compared to their "present"):

Rom11 -
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness [or, a hardening] in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in [ * G1525 - eiselthē / eiserchomai ].

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [/irrevocable].


* Strong's: "arise, come into, enter into, go through. From eis and erchomai; to enter (literally or figuratively) -- X arise, come (in, into), enter in(-to), go in (through)." And HELPS Word-studies: "1525 eisérxomai (from 1519 /eis, "into, unto" and 2064/erxomai, "come") – properly, come into, go (enter) into; (figuratively) to enter into for an important purpose – for the believer, doing so to experience the result of the Lord's eternal blessing."


Matthew 24:29-31 [at END of trib] correlates with Isaiah 27:12-13; note "WHO" and "to WHERE" and "WHEN" and "[gathered] BY WHOM" and "IN WHAT MANNER [they will be gathered ('ONE by ONE' not 'AS ONE' like at OUR 'Rapture' will be)]" and at "WHICH TRUMPET" and "for WHAT PURPOSE"... In every way distinct from that of our Rapture (which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [the 'ONE BODY' caught UP 'AS ONE'] and which occurs before the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" which is followed by MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse [Matt24:4-8 which are just "the BEGINNING of" but also everything that follows on from there, like Matt24:15 at the MIDDLE portion, leading up to Matthew 24:29-31 at the END point (His Second Coming TO THE EARTH; this is not our Rapture, but the gathering of the elect of Israel [saved DURING the trib (AFTER our Rapture)] for them "TO worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM" Isa27:12-13 and other passages)]).

[note "the WISE [of Israel]" in Dan12:1-4,10... compare with the "WISE" of the Olivet Discourse following the BoBP]

Scripture keeps them distinct; that is to say, NOT "WITHIN the Body of Christ" (wherein there is NO distinction! Thus, we should ascertain the distinctions when/where Scripture maintains them, and not attempt to lump them all into one mish-mash of mush that merely leads to confusion).

Boy, that's a long post.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your belief that being raised from death pertains only to the physical isn't correct.

You may recall that I believe Daniel 12:1-4 ("And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting shame and contempt") is not referring to a "physical/bodily resurrection [from the dead]" like verse 13 is, but speaks of Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations [at a specific future time period] and correlates with: Ezekiel 37:12-13,20-23 (the "dry bones" prophecy [see also "My people Israel" in 39:7]), Hosea 5:15-6:3 ("I will go and return to My place TILL"), Isaiah 26:16-21 (note the "birth pangs" and the "My people" there), Romans 11:15[25-29] ("what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD"), John 6:39 (as distinct from v.40); etc.


So it sounds as though you hold something like the "Idealist" view of Revelation; in that, it seems you are saying that Rev20:4,5b is speaking of "every time someone comes to faith in Christ" (which passage you seem to correlate with John 5:25 [which indeed speaks of "salvation"]), is that an accurate assessment of your viewpoint? That Rev20:4,5b is not speaking of a set of [the last ones to come to faith] during a specific, future, limited time period leading up to His "return" to the earth, but that Rev20:4,5b speaks of every time someone comes to faith in Christ, starting at the time of His first advent/earthly ministry? Am I getting close to understanding your viewpoint? (my view is that this would negate the Rev1:1 "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" that it is saying the "future" aspects of the book will take place in, i.e. the 7-yr trib, from the start of Seal #1 to the Rev19 "return" of Christ to the earth [where I can personally "make out"(/detect/perceive) 2520 days])

 

[garee]

"The Church which is His body" is made up of Jews and Gentiles, and wherein there is NO DISTINCTION in our standing before God IN Christ.

Earlier in the thread (I think) I provided a link showing where ALL 73 instances of the word "Israel" in the NT mean "Israel".

I've pointed out the distinction between "Israel" and "the Gentiles" (which, after our Rapture [the Rapture which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body,") Scripture shows that "Israel" and "the Gentiles" remain "distinct" (as they enter the MK age, that is, "the righteous" will, from each of these). I've mentioned how Romans 9-11 covers the Subject of "nations" ("Israel [singular nation] and "the Gentiles [plural nations]," and that Rom9:26/Hos1:10 speaks of "Israel" [especially their "present" as compared to their "future"], whereas Rom9:25/Hos2:23b speaks of "the Gentiles" [their "present"]; and how that Romans 11:25-29 speaks of Israel's "future" [compared to their "present"] [recall I said the "olive tree" (chpt 11) represents "God's governmental ways upon the earth" and that presently Israel is "Lo Ammi," but that their "blindness [or, 'hardening']" will be lifted at a specific time (that is, "blindness... UNTIL"). And that the following passage speaks of Israel's future (as compared to their "present"):

Rom11 -
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness [or, a hardening] in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in [ * G1525 - eiselthē / eiserchomai ].

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [/irrevocable].


* Strong's: "arise, come into, enter into, go through. From eis and erchomai; to enter (literally or figuratively) -- X arise, come (in, into), enter in(-to), go in (through)." And HELPS Word-studies: "1525 eisérxomai (from 1519 /eis, "into, unto" and 2064/erxomai, "come") – properly, come into, go (enter) into; (figuratively) to enter into for an important purpose – for the believer, doing so to experience the result of the Lord's eternal blessing."


Matthew 24:29-31 [at END of trib] correlates with Isaiah 27:12-13; note "WHO" and "to WHERE" and "WHEN" and "[gathered] BY WHOM" and "IN WHAT MANNER [they will be gathered ('ONE by ONE' not 'AS ONE' like at OUR 'Rapture' will be)]" and at "WHICH TRUMPET" and "for WHAT PURPOSE"... In every way distinct from that of our Rapture (which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [the 'ONE BODY' caught UP 'AS ONE'] and which occurs before the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" which is followed by MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse [Matt24:4-8 which are just "the BEGINNING of" but also everything that follows on from there, like Matt24:15 at the MIDDLE portion, leading up to Matthew 24:29-31 at the END point (His Second Coming TO THE EARTH; this is not our Rapture, but the gathering of the elect of Israel [saved DURING the trib (AFTER our Rapture)] for them "TO worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM" Isa27:12-13 and other passages)]).

[note "the WISE [of Israel]" in Dan12:1-4,10... compare with the "WISE" of the Olivet Discourse following the BoBP]

Scripture keeps them distinct; that is to say, NOT "WITHIN the Body of Christ" (wherein there is NO distinction! Thus, we should ascertain the distinctions when/where Scripture maintains them, and not attempt to lump them all into one mish-mash of mush that merely leads to confusion).

Boy, that's a long post.

Why would you divide corrupted flesh and blood, from corrupted flesh and blood? We do not wrestles against it and neither would it support us. Jesus said His own flesh and blood.... "it profits for nothing" . Why would it ...it is already judged as dead?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Why would you divide corrupted flesh and blood, from corrupted flesh and blood? We do not wrestles against it and neither would it support us. Jesus said His own flesh and blood.... "it profits for nothing" . Why would it ...it is already judged as dead?

The people I am referring to (in that context) will have come to faith DURING the tribulation period [70th Wk/7-yrs] which is AFTER our "Rapture/Departure" (AFTER the Rapture of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [in which there is NO DISTINCTION--here only (IN the 'ONE BODY' SOLELY!)]). Scripture shows in many places that the saints who will enter the MK-age ("the righteous" / the "BLESSED" / saved persons [and some of whom will be "STILL-LIVING" persons, at the time]) are called both "of Israel [singular nation]" and [the others] "of the nations [plural]" [<--For example, for this one, Matthew25:31-34's "SHEEP [of the nations, plural]" set in contradistinction to "the least of these My brethren" (who I've said are NOT the ones BEING "judged/separated" in this context, but WHOM the SHEEP [of the nations, plural] themselves AIDED [/BLESSED], and whom the "goats [of the nations, plural]" DID NOT AID [/BLESS], thus they are the "ye, CURSED" per our Lord's words; Another example: the 144,000 of Israel [nation, singular] set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations [plural; and parallel to Matt24:14[26:13]'s specific msg going out DURING that very specific time period--these "coming out of THE GREAT tribulation" (2nd half, specifically)]

The promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised TO ISRAEL, and it is THEY [having come to faith WITHIN the trib (AFTER our "departure/rapture")] who are the ones who will carry forth THAT MESSAGE of "INVITATION TO" the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth]"), not us (/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")


[Lk24:39 "39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."]

 

[Journeyman]

"The Church which is His body" is made up of Jews and Gentiles, and wherein there is NO DISTINCTION in our standing before God IN Christ.

Earlier in the thread (I think) I provided a link showing where ALL 73 instances of the word "Israel" in the NT mean "Israel".

I've pointed out the distinction between "Israel" and "the Gentiles" (which, after our Rapture [the Rapture which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body,") Scripture shows that "Israel" and "the Gentiles" remain "distinct" (as they enter the MK age, that is, "the righteous" will, from each of these). I've mentioned how Romans 9-11 covers the Subject of "nations" ("Israel [singular nation] and "the Gentiles [plural nations]," and that Rom9:26/Hos1:10 speaks of "Israel" [especially their "present" as compared to their "future"], whereas Rom9:25/Hos2:23b speaks of "the Gentiles" [their "present"]; and how that Romans 11:25-29 speaks of Israel's "future" [compared to their "present"] [recall I said the "olive tree" (chpt 11) represents "God's governmental ways upon the earth" and that presently Israel is "Lo Ammi," but that their "blindness [or, 'hardening']" will be lifted at a specific time (that is, "blindness... UNTIL"). And that the following passage speaks of Israel's future (as compared to their "present")

Rom11 -
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness [or, a hardening] in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in [ * G1525 - eiselthē / eiserchomai ].

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [/irrevocable].

* Strong's: "arise, come into, enter into, go through. From eis and erchomai; to enter (literally or figuratively) -- X arise, come (in, into), enter in(-to), go in (through)." And HELPS Word-studies: "1525 eisérxomai (from 1519 /eis, "into, unto" and 2064/erxomai, "come") – properly, come into, go (enter) into; (figuratively) to enter into for an important purpose – for the believer, doing so to experience the result of the Lord's eternal blessing."

Matthew 24:29-31 [at END of trib] correlates with Isaiah 27:12-13; note "WHO" and "to WHERE" and "WHEN" and "[gathered] BY WHOM" and "IN WHAT MANNER [they will be gathered ('ONE by ONE' not 'AS ONE' like at OUR 'Rapture' will be)]" and at "WHICH TRUMPET" and "for WHAT PURPOSE"... In every way distinct from that of our Rapture (which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [the 'ONE BODY' caught UP 'AS ONE'] and which occurs before the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" which is followed by MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse [Matt24:4-8 which are just "the BEGINNING of" but also everything that follows on from there, like Matt24:15 at the MIDDLE portion, leading up to Matthew 24:29-31 at the END point (His Second Coming TO THE EARTH; this is not our Rapture, but the gathering of the elect of Israel [saved DURING the trib (AFTER our Rapture)] for them "TO worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM" Isa27:12-13 and other passages)

[note "the WISE [of Israel]" in Dan12:1-4,10... compare with the "WISE" of the Olivet Discourse following the BoBP]

Scripture keeps them distinct; that is to say, NOT "WITHIN the Body of Christ" (wherein there is NO distinction! Thus, we should ascertain the distinctions when/where Scripture maintains them, and not attempt to lump them all into one mish-mash of mush that merely leads to confusion).

Boy, that's a long post.

I see Rom.9 and the other passages you cited differently. I see no distinction between the church and the Israel that continues forever.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[editing to add] The following is one [of many] passage telling of those who will be "STILL-LIVING" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth FOR their promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, and their entrance into that MK age:

"BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." Daniel 12:12

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I see Rom.9 and the other passages you cited differently. I see no distinction between the church and the Israel that continues forever.

I see the Daniel 7:27 verse ("the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven...whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom... all dominions shall serve and obey him") to be speaking of what takes place after the very specific time period named in verse 25 (and which is parallel to several other passages, including Dan12:6-7,1 [v.1 speaking of a particular people, just like Dan9:24 is!] and Revelation 12:6,14, where "the remnant of her seed" is distinct from "the male [G730]" whom the woman "HAD BROUGHT FORTH" prior to this; and correlating with what Micah 5:3 [distinct from v.3 about Jesus] says, "Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: THEN the remnant of his brethren SHALL RETURN [see the "shuv" word in some of those parallel passages I listed about "Israel's FUTURE"] unto the children of Israel")

 

[Journeyman]

You may recall that I believe Daniel 12:1-4 ("And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting shame and contempt") is not referring to a "physical/bodily resurrection [from the dead]" like verse 13 is, but speaks of Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations [at a specific future time period] and correlates with: Ezekiel 37:12-13,20-23 (the "dry bones" prophecy [see also "My people Israel" in 39:7]), Hosea 5:15-6:3 ("I will go and return to My place TILL"), Isaiah 26:16-21 (note the "birth pangs" and the "My people" there), Romans 11:15[25-29] ("what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD"), John 6:39 (as distinct from v.40); etc.

I believe those who will experience everlasting shame will not wake up to it until the final judgment.

So it sounds as though you hold something like the "Idealist" view of Revelation; in that, it seems you are saying that Rev20:4,5b is speaking of "every time someone comes to faith in Christ" (which passage you seem to correlate with John 5:25 [which indeed speaks of "salvation"]), is that an accurate assessment of your viewpoint? That Rev20:4,5b is not speaking of a set of [the last ones to come to faith] during a specific, future, limited time period leading up to His "return" to the earth, but that Rev20:4,5b speaks of every time someone comes to faith in Christ, starting at the time of His first advent/earthly ministry? Am I getting close to understanding your viewpoint?

I believe in Rev.20, it's the souls of his entire body being described (both ot and nt). He's simply saying when believers finished reigning with Christ, no harm came to them. Like this,

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Lk.10:19

(my view is that this would negate the Rev1:1 "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" that it is saying the "future" aspects of the book will take place in, i.e. the 7-yr trib, from the start of Seal #1 to the Rev19 "return" of Christ to the earth [where I can personally "make out"(/detect/perceive) 2520 days])

I think the 7 years could be symbolic of the ministry of Jesus on earth and the subsequent ministry of his followers.

 

[dcontroversal]

I wasn't being flippant, but you were when you said,


But Jesus said,

You would have no authority over me at all, unless it was given to you from above Jn.19:11

So in reality, Jesus was above Pilate.

Don't you know I have the authority to release you, and to crucify you?" Jn.19:10

Pilate didn't have power to kill the God who created him.

the people imagine vain things...Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel
Act.4:25,27

Does not change what he said which contradicts your view....take it up with him....

 

[Journeyman]

I see the Daniel 7:27 verse ("the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven...whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom... all dominions shall serve and obey him") to be speaking of what takes place after the very specific time period named in verse 25 (and which is parallel to several other passages, including Dan12:6-7,1 [v.1 speaking of a particular people, just like Dan9:24 is!] and Revelation 12:6,14, where "the remnant of her seed" is distinct from "the male [G730]" whom the woman "HAD BROUGHT FORTH" prior to this; and correlating with what Micah 5:3 [distinct from v.3 about Jesus] says, "Therefore will he give them up, UNTIL the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: THEN the remnant of his brethren SHALL RETURN [see the "shuv" word in some of those parallel passages I listed about "Israel's FUTURE"] unto the children of Israel")

Antichrist was proved powerless when Jesus rose from the dead and the woman's refuge is in Christ.

 

[Journeyman]

Does not change what he said

It changes what Pilate said180 degrees. He had no power to put Jesus death as proved by our Lord's resurrection.

It's difficult to see our reign in terms of loving those who hate us as Jesus taught, but our own resurrection will show the truth of it.

 

[garee]

Journeyman said: It sounds like you're saying Israel and the church are two separate bodies.

"The Church which is His body" is made up of Jews and Gentiles, and wherein there is NO DISTINCTION in our standing before God IN Christ.

Earlier in the thread (I think) I provided a link showing where ALL 73 instances of the word "Israel" in the NT mean "Israel".

Jews are used as a metaphor just like other ceremonial usages of plants or animals used in eating and drinking parables to represent those who do the will and those who refuse to hear God are used to represent unbelief as in no faith, or belief as in faith.

As Israel in respect to an outward Jew.... They are the Jews according to the nation of fleshly Jews .Same standing as gentile without hope and without God in this world .Today still waiting for the veil to be rent.

As Israel in respect to a inward Jew born they are of the Spirit of Christ God has given them a new name Christians . A word that literally mean residents of the city of Christ .His eternal bride.

When the reformation came, it put a end to using Jewish flesh in parables. Again to represent belief or unbelief of the nations . Great tribulation for a Jew that are trusting their flesh to profit for something. The time of Jacobs trouble a time like never before or ever again.

 

[Journeyman]

Jews are used as a metaphor just like other ceremonial usages of plants or animals used in eating and drinking parables to represent those who do the will and those who refuse to hear God are used to represent unbelief as in no faith, or belief as in faith.

As Israel in respect to an outward Jew.... They are the Jews according to the nation of fleshly Jews .Same standing as gentile without hope and without God in this world .Today still waiting for the veil to be rent.

As Israel in respect to a inward Jew born they are of the Spirit of Christ God has given them a new name Christians . A word that literally mean residents of the city of Christ .His eternal bride.

When the reformation came, it put a end to using Jewish flesh in parables. Again to represent belief or unbelief of the nations . Great tribulation for a Jew that are trusting their flesh to profit for something. The time of Jacobs trouble a time like never before or ever again.

Just so there's no misunderstanding, your post 189 makes it look like TheDivineWatermarks comments were mine.