Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14
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At first: my point is not about teaching the gifts of speaking in tongues.
My point is the teaching: that speaking in tongues as proof for to be filled ore received the Holy Spirit. Which some in this thread claim. F.e Wanswick in post 589 and Waggles in post 599. There was posts before too.
And I was in discussion with Kelby, when you postet me.
My intention was simple. The thread theme is: some truth about.....
I said simply that this teaching which waggles and wanswick share is not mentioned in the bible as teaching for the believers. And I also cant find that this was taught in the churchhistory till around 1901.
You mentioned some churchfathers.
I found in www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org:
"Justin Martyr listet some gifts but not glossolalia. Chrysostom wrote numerous homilies on books of the NT during the 4th century but does not appear to make mention of glossolalia as notet in 1 corinthians"
You mentioned the montanists as example, which was a cult.
Luther and Calvin did not taught this!
Otherwise you would find this in calvinism and protestant tradition.[/QUOTE]
I am glad to see you finally are getting acuate on my comments. Secondly, Montanist was not a cult when it started. Also, the term glossolalia was not mentioned because it was a Greek word. Martin Luther and others of the reformed did use the term "Spiritual utterances". That is in context to the Gift of Tongues And prophesying. The Church fathers and reformed founders did not use the word "glossolalia" as you tried here. FYI Luther spoke German.
AD - Apostolic Doctrine, AIS File Library
With the birth of Reformation, the Catholic Church no longer asserts iron rule among the Church world. The instances of tongues becomes more and more frequent, beginning with Matin Luther. In a German work, Sourer’s History of the Christian Church” it is stated that, Dr. Martin Luther was a prophet, evangelist, speaker in tongues, and interpreter, in one person, endowed with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit.”
“Soon following Luther came the French sect known as the Jansenists. This group arose in the Roman Catholic Church after the Council of Trent and was subjected to persecution following the issuance in 1705 of a bill condemning them. After persecution began, speaking in tongues was reported among this group.
My point is the teaching: that speaking in tongues as proof for to be filled ore received the Holy Spirit. Which some in this thread claim. F.e Wanswick in post 589 and Waggles in post 599. There was posts before too.
And I was in discussion with Kelby, when you postet me.
My intention was simple. The thread theme is: some truth about.....
I said simply that this teaching which waggles and wanswick share is not mentioned in the bible as teaching for the believers. And I also cant find that this was taught in the churchhistory till around 1901.
You mentioned some churchfathers.
I found in www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org:
"Justin Martyr listet some gifts but not glossolalia. Chrysostom wrote numerous homilies on books of the NT during the 4th century but does not appear to make mention of glossolalia as notet in 1 corinthians"
You mentioned the montanists as example, which was a cult.
Luther and Calvin did not taught this!
Otherwise you would find this in calvinism and protestant tradition.[/QUOTE]
I am glad to see you finally are getting acuate on my comments. Secondly, Montanist was not a cult when it started. Also, the term glossolalia was not mentioned because it was a Greek word. Martin Luther and others of the reformed did use the term "Spiritual utterances". That is in context to the Gift of Tongues And prophesying. The Church fathers and reformed founders did not use the word "glossolalia" as you tried here. FYI Luther spoke German.
AD - Apostolic Doctrine, AIS File Library
With the birth of Reformation, the Catholic Church no longer asserts iron rule among the Church world. The instances of tongues becomes more and more frequent, beginning with Matin Luther. In a German work, Sourer’s History of the Christian Church” it is stated that, Dr. Martin Luther was a prophet, evangelist, speaker in tongues, and interpreter, in one person, endowed with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit.”
“Soon following Luther came the French sect known as the Jansenists. This group arose in the Roman Catholic Church after the Council of Trent and was subjected to persecution following the issuance in 1705 of a bill condemning them. After persecution began, speaking in tongues was reported among this group.
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I don't see that at all. I see brother Rodger who like all believers that are filled with the Holy Spirit that which comes by the hearing of the faith of Christ, our treasure of power that indwells all believers. New creatures as Christians are full of the Holy Spirit that dwells in them. The same Spirit that give us His understanding as the work of that faith or labor of Christ's love that does work in us to both will and perform the good pleasure of God with power .
The idea that when the Spirit gets weak.... we need to refill at the local Spirit filling station. It is or seems to be a idea of those who seek after signs as to what the eyes see, the temporal . The Bible says in effect they have received their reward of glorying in their own flesh or again that is what it seems like to myself. . Christian walk by faith, an understand as to what Christ meant when he said; His flesh profits for zero, nothing.
Where did that idea come from of filling, and filling the spirit ? Is that how his Spirit witnesses to our new born again spirit?
Do we look to these earthen bodies of death as a witness of spirit of freedom or like Jesus said of his own it as corrupted flesh, or flesh of bondage, it profits for nothing?
Romans 8:15-17 King James Version (KJV) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
It does not bear witness with our corrupted flesh, flesh like that of the Son of man, Jesus that could never profit . That does not give a license to sin but a new heart whose desires have a new Spirit, not like the spirit of bondage the god of this world .
If the power was of us then we could outwardly demonstrate it as some sort of confirmation. We walk by faith the unseen eternal. .
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in "earthen vessels", that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
How can we be sure that we are not turning that power upside down as did the faithless Jews. And in doing so the oral tradition made the word of God without effect .
He has not left us a orphans without the proper 20/20 prescription and not look through a dark glass.
Later in chapter 4 it would seem he gives us the prescription. Helping us to remember to look up from where our help comes from and not turn that upside down as to what the eyes see as the faithless Jews that are used to typify unbelief of all the nations. They performed that again and again just as today .
The veil representing the corrupted flesh of the Son of man Jesus is rent.
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
The idea that when the Spirit gets weak.... we need to refill at the local Spirit filling station. It is or seems to be a idea of those who seek after signs as to what the eyes see, the temporal . The Bible says in effect they have received their reward of glorying in their own flesh or again that is what it seems like to myself. . Christian walk by faith, an understand as to what Christ meant when he said; His flesh profits for zero, nothing.
Where did that idea come from of filling, and filling the spirit ? Is that how his Spirit witnesses to our new born again spirit?
Do we look to these earthen bodies of death as a witness of spirit of freedom or like Jesus said of his own it as corrupted flesh, or flesh of bondage, it profits for nothing?
Romans 8:15-17 King James Version (KJV) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
It does not bear witness with our corrupted flesh, flesh like that of the Son of man, Jesus that could never profit . That does not give a license to sin but a new heart whose desires have a new Spirit, not like the spirit of bondage the god of this world .
If the power was of us then we could outwardly demonstrate it as some sort of confirmation. We walk by faith the unseen eternal. .
2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in "earthen vessels", that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
How can we be sure that we are not turning that power upside down as did the faithless Jews. And in doing so the oral tradition made the word of God without effect .
He has not left us a orphans without the proper 20/20 prescription and not look through a dark glass.
Later in chapter 4 it would seem he gives us the prescription. Helping us to remember to look up from where our help comes from and not turn that upside down as to what the eyes see as the faithless Jews that are used to typify unbelief of all the nations. They performed that again and again just as today .
The veil representing the corrupted flesh of the Son of man Jesus is rent.
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Key difference is that the folks today seek where the disciple then did not seek. Today folks want power the easy way. They do not desire a testimony for God through suffering and persecution. Nope all they seek is glory and power.
If you do not see signs and wonders will you still believe? Will the pews of your church still be filled if no signs are seen?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
If you do not see signs and wonders will you still believe? Will the pews of your church still be filled if no signs are seen?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
there are a whole bunch of opinionated comments here. The Gospel message is Jesus death burial, and resurrection. Those who put their faith in Jesus Christ and Believe are saved. Rom 10:9-10 and John 3:16-19.
after one believes they are to be baptized " Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "
Acts 2:38.
The idea one is seeking a sign as you stated here:
"You seek signs because you cannot receive by faith that which God has promised."
No one has said such a thing. Your error is this as you do continually.
you use John chapter 20 as an indictment as to say those seeking a sign. This is your error again. Those who desire spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit are to do so because they are told to do so in the word of God
1cor 12: 31 "31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. "
1cor 14:1 "Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. "
1cor 14:39 " Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
nowhere does 1cor chapter 12 to 14 say were to seek a sign. Jesus said that signs will follow them that believe in Mark 16:17.
Nothing Jesus said in John 20 had to do with spiritual gifts other than John 20:22 where Jesus breathed on them and said " received the Holy Spirit.
after one believes they are to be baptized " Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "
Acts 2:38.
The idea one is seeking a sign as you stated here:
"You seek signs because you cannot receive by faith that which God has promised."
No one has said such a thing. Your error is this as you do continually.
you use John chapter 20 as an indictment as to say those seeking a sign. This is your error again. Those who desire spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit are to do so because they are told to do so in the word of God
1cor 12: 31 "31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. "
1cor 14:1 "Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. "
1cor 14:39 " Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
nowhere does 1cor chapter 12 to 14 say were to seek a sign. Jesus said that signs will follow them that believe in Mark 16:17.
Nothing Jesus said in John 20 had to do with spiritual gifts other than John 20:22 where Jesus breathed on them and said " received the Holy Spirit.
Hi Dino
Its not my intention to accuse .I don't see anyone walking on water. Its my goal to defend the faith that defends all of Christianity . The faith of (coming from as the one source) Christ, that works in us, it is.... not of us. He has given us his armor to put on and keep on. to defend us from the arrows of lies of the evil one
Same question. What do you say the sign of tongues confirms? Belief in respect to prophecy to include the manner of tongues or unbelief...as in yet for all that they still refused to beleive prophecy after any tongue. It has to confirm something. I would think.
A sign as a curse or a sign as a blessing?
Its not my intention to accuse .I don't see anyone walking on water. Its my goal to defend the faith that defends all of Christianity . The faith of (coming from as the one source) Christ, that works in us, it is.... not of us. He has given us his armor to put on and keep on. to defend us from the arrows of lies of the evil one
Same question. What do you say the sign of tongues confirms? Belief in respect to prophecy to include the manner of tongues or unbelief...as in yet for all that they still refused to beleive prophecy after any tongue. It has to confirm something. I would think.
A sign as a curse or a sign as a blessing?
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that is a blanketed statement and not true for all. For you say "folk" and instead of saying some "folks" shows your bias and mean spirited. folk wants the easy way LOL. They do not desire a testimony. all they seek is power and glory. This is not true for all. And frankly, when you say this it is referring to all those here who are seeking what is seen in the word of God found in 1cor chapter 12 thru 14. and the very words of Jesus. You are attacking all of us instead of addressing the some. You are arrogant. prideful, and foolish.
The Greek word you want for water baptism is bapto the word in Acts 2:38 means to submerge like a sunken ship. That of course implies not returning to the surface. We are submerged in the Holy Spirit and do not come out but remain submerged.
I know you are in error and that you do seek gifts to reassure yourself that you are saved. You need to trust Gods word not experiences. The heart of man is desperately wicked and who can trust it.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I know you are in error and that you do seek gifts to reassure yourself that you are saved. You need to trust Gods word not experiences. The heart of man is desperately wicked and who can trust it.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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I would ask. Where does it say spiritual (unseen) gifts are gifts the eye of man sees, as no longer spiritual ?
How could the spiritual "unseen gift" be walking by sight? It would no longer be spiritual but according as to what the eyes see. That which is seen, by looking at something confirming its there does not mean it has spirit life or long its corruption period is.
That would seem to turn things upside down taking away the understanding of God that is loosened from that not seen, the holy place, revealed by the things seen the temporal .
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Speaking prophecy after the manner of tongues is possible today with electronic devices that can translate between to unknowns is still possible, in that way the gospel is spread.
How could the spiritual "unseen gift" be walking by sight? It would no longer be spiritual but according as to what the eyes see. That which is seen, by looking at something confirming its there does not mean it has spirit life or long its corruption period is.
That would seem to turn things upside down taking away the understanding of God that is loosened from that not seen, the holy place, revealed by the things seen the temporal .
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Speaking prophecy after the manner of tongues is possible today with electronic devices that can translate between to unknowns is still possible, in that way the gospel is spread.
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wrong! I do not seek any gift nor do I teach one needs to do so. You are a person who has hate in your heart and has an issue with the truth. This is why you should not be here. I am saved Becuase Jesus saved me and is the lord of My life, I tell you that because you choose to get personal and blanketly attack all who seek what Jesus said to seek for and the word of God says to seek for. You do not even know what you are talking about. The heart of man is desperately wicked, and you should really self examine. You are not a teacher, you are not a minister. You are a person who sows discord among the brethren.
you can allegorize al you want. And take whatever you want out of Context. You too try to use the word of God to bring indictments against those seeking the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Shame on you. You too lack the ability to discern the word of God. Unseen gifts LOL. I would ask you where did I say that?
LOL this is the funniest thing i have seen yet .
Speaking prophecy after the manner of tongues is possible today with electronic devices that can translate between to unknowns is still possible, in that way the gospel is spread.
This is what I'm talking about with these type of prideful men who say things so unbiblical while trying to interject those who seek the power of the Holy Spirit and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are in error.
done with electronic device hahahahhaha What a joke. These secular humanistic so-called Christians now state that an electronic device can authoritatively translate the gospel and be used to spread it. No empowerment of the Holy Spirit needed?
LOL hahahha, thank you for proving just how foolish and unbiblical you are.
Thank you.
Speaking prophecy after the manner of tongues is possible today with electronic devices that can translate between to unknowns is still possible, in that way the gospel is spread.
This is what I'm talking about with these type of prideful men who say things so unbiblical while trying to interject those who seek the power of the Holy Spirit and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are in error.
done with electronic device hahahahhaha What a joke. These secular humanistic so-called Christians now state that an electronic device can authoritatively translate the gospel and be used to spread it. No empowerment of the Holy Spirit needed?
LOL hahahha, thank you for proving just how foolish and unbiblical you are.
Thank you.
If I could add. I see as a living water a washing. The word is used in washing clothes, or dishes. The washing of the living water of the word. Deuteronomy 32 describes all of the doctrine of God that come down loosed from heaven bound on the hearts of men as living or moving water.. By that washing and renewing he prepares Christians for the new incorruptible bodies.
Stagnant or salt water( Dead Sea)points to judgment . James 3:12
Deuteronomy 32 King James Version (KJV) Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
It would seem the closing verse is made into his signature (publish the name of the Lord) as the signified or poetic language of God hiding the spiritual understanding from natural man that must walk by sight.
Submerged I would think could represent the Egyptians and the red Sea . The Israelites walking on the dry ground as that which God called good setting aside the phrase "good dry ground"for its purposes. He does not say the stagnate water was good it was the Spirit moving not the water .It like the Dead Sea had no life. just like he did not say darkness was good. God does use water both ways though .I am simply offering another way it could be looked at. Identifying in his death is another. Just as salt can also be used to preserve.
Stagnant or salt water( Dead Sea)points to judgment . James 3:12
Deuteronomy 32 King James Version (KJV) Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
It would seem the closing verse is made into his signature (publish the name of the Lord) as the signified or poetic language of God hiding the spiritual understanding from natural man that must walk by sight.
Submerged I would think could represent the Egyptians and the red Sea . The Israelites walking on the dry ground as that which God called good setting aside the phrase "good dry ground"for its purposes. He does not say the stagnate water was good it was the Spirit moving not the water .It like the Dead Sea had no life. just like he did not say darkness was good. God does use water both ways though .I am simply offering another way it could be looked at. Identifying in his death is another. Just as salt can also be used to preserve.
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