Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[UnderGrace]

Jesus will answer to this in the same manner that He answered Pilate ... "My kingdom is not of this world". Some future prophecies remain obscure, to be sure, but other things Christ has said are definitive. The above is one example of that.

If Christ's kingdom included a literal 1,000 year (post rapture) millennial reign on this earth, why would Jesus clearly state otherwise ?

Christ's church, His bride, has always been comprised of those who believe, be they Jew or Gentile ... and believers only. The mystery of His gospel declared that Gentiles too are now included in God's offer of grace granted thru faith in Christ. Today we know that there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female in God's kingdom.

Christ's church today (body of believers) is an extension of what His church has always been ... and does not represent a replacement of "Christians for Jews." All are one, if they are believers. This "replacement theology" nonsense spouted continuously by dispensationalists today fails to take into account that Christ's kingdom indeed is not of this world ... and never has been. We who believe look for that heavenly city whose builder and architect is God ... just as Abraham did.

While the bible chronicles the history of earthly Israel, it is primarily God's Word pertaining to spiritual Israel ... His church. Those not understanding the difference between the two will never understand what God has spoken to us thru His Word.

Amen

Replacement theology a straw man.

Paul clearly defines who is a Jew in the new covenant
Romans 2:29
29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

 

[UnderGrace]

This is nonsense. The Church does not replace Israel in either of these positions. It is an extension of Israel. The only thing replaced is
the Old Covenant system. Christ himself replaced that not Preterists or Amillennialists. The Church was headed by Jews who were part of Israel. Try reading all of Paul's teachings on the subject for a clearer view.

One could read all of Isaiah as well...but here is an interesting pivotal verse

(Isa 65:15 KJV) And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

 

[dcontroversal]

Seeking to change someone's mind is not the point, the point is if we examine scripture which is the correct way to understand interpret what is being stated. I am not interested in changing your mind you are free to believe on this as you are persuaded.

Mr. EG do you think it is possible for Jesus to have returned not as in His final return but a return and not staying?

There have been ancient historians like Josephus who have written about it.

I will need to look up the reference.

To your question....no

WAS<--Past tense
IS<--Present tense
IS TO COME <--Future tense

AND qualified by the word Parousia <----BODY PRESENCE

AND SAID BODY PRESENCE is tied to <--THE dead in Christ RISING and WE which are alive and remain being caught up together into the air with CHRIST

And.....the evidence of Revelation being written after the fall of Jerusalem is far greater in scope than a PRE 70 A.D. pen date......

 

[dcontroversal]

This is nonsense. The Church does not replace Israel in either of these positions. It is an extension of Israel. The only thing replaced is
the Old Covenant system. Christ himself replaced that not Preterists or Amillennialists. The Church was headed by Jews who were part of Israel. Try reading all of Paul's teachings on the subject for a clearer view.

Maybe slow down and actually read bro.....he was not promoting the church replacing ISRAEL....and has actually stood against that view in almost every post....

cobalt1959 said:
No it is not. God is outside time. He is in control of it and he does not measure it according man's definition of it. People who want to jack around with prophecy and re-mold it to their own personal doctrine do so because they are impatient, or they have a personal agenda they need served. In the case of Preterism and Amillennialism, the entire goal is to make the Church replace Israel. At no point in prophecy does that ever happen. Replacement Theology is 100% bogus.

 

[Melach]

To your question....no

WAS<--Past tense
IS<--Present tense
IS TO COME <--Future tense

AND qualified by the word Parousia <----BODY PRESENCE

AND SAID BODY PRESENCE is tied to <--THE dead in Christ RISING and WE which are alive and remain being caught up together into the air with CHRIST

And.....the evidence of Revelation being written after the fall of Jerusalem is far greater in scope than a PRE 70 A.D. pen date......

parousia means body presence. that rules out all spiritual returns.

does it rule out the pre-trib rapture?

can you prove that parousia is used when talking about rapture in 1 thessalonians 4:15-17 or 1 corinthians 15:51-55? if thats the case its two birds with one stone.

 

[dcontroversal]

parousia means body presence. that rules out all spiritual returns.

does it rule out the pre-trib rapture?

can you prove that parousia is used when talking about rapture in 1 thessalonians 4:15-17 or 1 corinthians 15:51-55? if thats the case its two birds with one stone.

YES......the Grandsville Sharp used in 2nd Thessalonians 2.......Literally in Greek

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

Literally the coming (Parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ THAT IS TO SAY our gathering together unto him <--Grandsville Sharp

Coming

parousia: a presence, a coming
Original Word: παρουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parousia
Phonetic Spelling: (par-oo-see'-ah)
Definition: a presence, a coming
Usage: (a) presence, (b) a coming, an arrival, advent, especially of the second coming of Christ

 

[Melach]

YES......the Grandsville Sharp used in 2nd Thessalonians 2.......Literally in Greek

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

Literally the coming (Parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ THAT IS TO SAY our gathering together unto him <--Grandsville Sharp

Coming

parousia: a presence, a coming
Original Word: παρουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parousia
Phonetic Spelling: (par-oo-see'-ah)
Definition: a presence, a coming
Usage: (a) presence, (b) a coming, an arrival, advent, especially of the second coming of Christ

i looked it up and checked. what you say its true. the word translated coming there is parousia

well there we go friends.

no pre-trib rapture, no preterist spiritual return to destroy Jerusalem in ad70.

both those are unbiblical and you are arguing with bible if you believe them.

thank you dcon i want to hug you for giving me the truth, praise Jesus holy name.

 

[garee]

Jesus will answer to this in the same manner that He answered Pilate ... "My kingdom is not of this world". Some future prophecies remain obscure, to be sure, but other things Christ has said are definitive. The above is one example of that.

If Christ's kingdom included a literal 1,000 year (post rapture) millennial reign on this earth, why would Jesus clearly state otherwise ?

Christ's church, His bride, has always been comprised of those who believe, be they Jew or Gentile ... and believers only. The mystery of His gospel declared that Gentiles too are now included in God's offer of grace granted thru faith in Christ. Today we know that there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female in God's kingdom.

Christ's church today (body of believers) is an extension of what His church has always been ... and does not represent a replacement of "Christians for Jews." All are one, if they are believers. This "replacement theology" nonsense spouted continuously by dispensationalists today fails to take into account that Christ's kingdom indeed is not of this world .e.. and never has been. We who believe look for that heavenly city whose builder and architect is God ... just as Abraham did.

While the bible chronicles the history of earthly Israel, it is primarily God's Word pertaining to spiritual Israel ... His church. Those not understanding the difference between the two will never understand what God has spoken to us thru His Word.

The phrase last days works the best for sorting out the end timing . We are in the last time or last days for over two thousand literal years.

Yes, his kingdom is not of this world. He reigns here in the heart of the believers as a kingdom of priest sent as apostles from a foreign land. This is where Christians have the birth records . But that does not mean we not in the "last days" that began when the veil was rent rendering the temporal use of architecture stone used as a parable for the time period , rendering things the eye see as useless the moment the veil was rent. And not 70 years later.

Therefore Christ has been reigning on earth for a thousand years (unknown) as Ambassadors sent from a foreign land. The city of Christ the heavenly Jerusalem the eternal not seen prepared as His bride .She will come down on the last day Six times in John the Holy Spirit emphasizes the timing as the twinkling of the eye. The execution of the previous judgement (lake of fire second death ) and the appearing of our new incorruptible bodies that will be neither Jew nor Gentile, neither male nor female signified by word thousand years .

The idea of those in their new incorruptible bodies here in the same space existing with those that still dwell in a body of death is not a biblical teaching. Stuff for Hollywood. "The indestructible Alien" that lost its authority to multiply verses earth people multiplying like jack rabbits.".

John reveals both will occur in the twinkling of the eye .When Christ comes as a thief in the night.Just as in the days of Noah.to execute judgment and bring in the new incorruptible heavens and earth that are right beyond the horizon

John 6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

One occurance. in the twinkling

 

[dcontroversal]

i looked it up and checked. what you say its true. the word translated coming there is parousia

well there we go friends.

no pre-trib rapture, no preterist spiritual return to destroy Jerusalem in ad70.

both those are unbiblical and you are arguing with bible if you believe them.

thank you dcon i want to hug you for giving me the truth, praise Jesus holy name.

The truth is the truth.......I was raised believing in the imminent return with the same secret invisible to the world "rapture" and even defended it dogmatically........way too many scriptures in context contradict that view......even 2nd Thessalonians 2 states clearly that two things MUST take place first.....and I do not see the (definite article) MAN of SIN sitting on the throne claiming to be god and worshiped as god.......and the APO-HYSTAMIE is tied directly to that moment.....but hey......whatevzzzz like my Aussie friends say....

 

[dcontroversal]

The phrase last days works the best for sorting out the end timing . We are in the last time or last days for over two thousand literal years.

Yes, his kingdom is not of this world. He reigns here in the heart of the believers as a kingdom of priest sent as apostles from a foreign land. This is where Christians have the birth records . But that does not mean we not in the "last days" that began when the veil was rent rendering the temporal use of architecture stone used as a parable for the time period , rendering things the eye see as useless the moment the veil was rent. And not 70 years later.

Therefore Christ has been reigning on earth for a thousand years (unknown) as Ambassadors sent from a foreign land. The city of Christ the heavenly Jerusalem the eternal not seen prepared as His bride .She will come down on the last day Six times in John the Holy Spirit emphasizes the timing as the twinkling of the eye. The execution of the previous judgement (lake of fire second death ) and the appearing of our new incorruptible bodies that will be neither Jew nor Gentile, neither male nor female signified by word thousand years .

The idea of those in their new incorruptible bodies here in the same space existing with those that still dwell in a body of death is not a biblical teaching. Stuff for Hollywood. "The indestructible Alien" that lost its authority to multiply verses earth people multiplying like jack rabbits.".

John reveals both will occur in the twinkling of the eye .When Christ comes as a thief in the night.Just as in the days of Noah.to execute judgment and bring in the new incorruptible heavens and earth that are right beyond the horizon

John 6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

One occurance. in the twinkling

How was time marked off? The evening and the morning was the 1st Day correct?

So we have a 1st day and we have a LAST DAY for history to play out right?

So when is the last day as far as having the time for history to play out?

Well.....if TIME has been marked off by EVENINGS and MORNINGS into DAYS...we can rightfully deduce that when TIME is up the LAST day has come correct?

When the 7th trump begins to sound TIME shall be NO MORE <-----the LAST DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For the kingdoms of the world the gig is up <--JESUS as LORD seizes control of ALL earthly kingdoms
For the SAVED time is up as the dead and alive receive their IMMORTAL, ETERNAL bodies and are rewarded by JESUS
For the LOST on the planet under the beast TIME IS UP as the wrath of the LAMB is poured out without mixture

 

[Melach]

there is no use for any "debate" anymore. its just fake debates and bad doctrine

only truth is historic premillennialism. post-trib rapture, last day resurrection/rapture. those who survive rumble will survive to the kingdom.

no invisible return for rapture or 70ad jerusalem. nothing like that.

parousia = body presence. no body presence yet so Jesus returns only one time one coming then is rapture resurrection and second coming

this is absolute truth everything else is just false.

very easy. this is what we all need to believe.

 

[yellowcanary]

The idea of those in their new incorruptible bodies here in the same space existing with those that still dwell in a body of death is not a biblical teaching. Stuff for Hollywood. "The indestructible Alien" that lost its authority to multiply verses earth people multiplying like jack rabbits.".

Exactly ... and one would think that this in and of itself would be evidence enough to put to rest any notion aligning itself with as much. But apparently not so.

And to promulgate such a baseless notion even further (and one must in order to justify the prior), it becomes necessary to defend/explain how Christ Himself will be present in the earthly temple to come approving of reinstated animal sacrifices ... even though we are already told that He takes no pleasure in such an act ... and never did. The thought of such a thing after His agonizing death on the cross and His "once and for all sacrifice" on our behalf is beyond all reason, logic or thought. I can think of no greater abomination and/or insult to Him who is deserving of all praise, glory and honor.

We are given more than enough definitives in God's word to make discerning His intent of meaning fairly straightforward. And carnal or worldly reasoning has never resulted in spiritual understanding. I'm amazed at some of the things I read on these threads ... and not in a good way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Seeking to change someone's mind is not the point, the point is if we examine scripture which is the correct way to understand interpret what is being stated. I am not interested in changing your mind you are free to believe on this as you are persuaded.

Mr. EG do you think it is possible for Jesus to have returned not as in His final return but a return and not staying?

Nope, Because if he did, The bible would say that was what he was going to do. Does the bible say this? No

It says when he returns, many events will happen. (Gentiles nations will be punished, Israel will be restored. He will set up his kingdom on davids throne, the world will live in peace. Every nation will worship Jesus. Etc etc...

If I am to take the bible seriously (me personally) I must take the bible for what it says.

There have been ancient historians like Josephus who have written about it.

I will need to look up the reference.

If they do not line up with what Gods word says will happen. How can I take it seriously. Are we to not test the spirits??

 

[Journeyman]

The idea of those in their new incorruptible bodies here in the same space existing with those that still dwell in a body of death is not a biblical teaching.

You're right. I was once deceived for by that false doctrine, but accepted it because the Bible seemed to say mortals and immortals will dwell together. I didn't understand those passages properly because I ignored the fact that believers already have eternal life, so immortals and mortals are dwelling together now.

I began to question what I was being taught when I asked the pastor of a church I belong to how people get saved during the millennial kingdom. He said they're saved by works. I prayed long about that without searching commentaries and found how untrue that is.

 

[Journeyman]

And to promulgate such a baseless notion even further (and one must in order to justify the prior), it becomes necessary to defend/explain how Christ Himself will be present in the earthly temple to come approving of reinstated animal sacrifices ... even though we are already told that He takes no pleasure in such an act ... and never did. The thought of such a thing after His agonizing death on the cross and His "once and for all sacrifice" on our behalf is beyond all reason, logic or thought. I can think of no greater abomination and/or insult to Him who is deserving of all praise, glory and honor.

This is without doubt the greatest reason a future 1000 years reign is heresy.

I didn't understand all the days Jesus walked on earth He was reigning over his enemies in love and mercy and patience. He conquered sin and death. What the heck! And Jesus truly does give believers his Spirit to rule their enemies.

 

[UnderGrace]

Exactly ... and one would think that this in and of itself would be evidence enough to put to rest any notion aligning itself with as much. But apparently not so.

And to promulgate such a baseless notion even further (and one must in order to justify the prior), it becomes necessary to defend/explain how Christ Himself will be present in the earthly temple to come approving of reinstated animal sacrifices ... even though we are already told that He takes no pleasure in such an act ... and never did. The thought of such a thing after His agonizing death on the cross and His "once and for all sacrifice" on our behalf is beyond all reason, logic or thought. I can think of no greater abomination and/or insult to Him who is deserving of all praise, glory and honor.

We are given more than enough definitives in God's word to make discerning His intent of meaning fairly straightforward. And carnal or worldly reasoning has never resulted in spiritual understanding. I'm amazed at some of the things I read on these threads ... and not in a good way.

True

All in support of a secular/carnal nation

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

parousia means body presence. that rules out all spiritual returns.

does it rule out the pre-trib rapture?

can you prove that parousia is used when talking about rapture in 1 thessalonians 4:15-17 or 1 corinthians 15:51-55? if thats the case its two birds with one stone.

BOTH "parousia" and "erchomai" are used for EACH instance (both His coming for us in our Rapture "IN THE AIR," and His "return" to the earth), but context determines in whose presence He will be [and "where"]; those are distinct for the rapture and His return to the earth (our Rapture being "IN THE AIR" and in no one else's presence except for "the Church which is His body";... and His "return" to the earth when/where everyone still on the earth will see Him.)


And of course, you may recall that I've stated that there is only ONE thing being referred to in 2Th2:1 [ONE SUBJECT in that verse] (the entire verse refers ONLY to "our Rapture"... so the "and" is not there saying this is two distinct things [separated by time], and few pre-tribbers I know even say such a thing, so it's a non-point, as far as I'm concerned... meaning, it changes nothing)

Few ppl I know have ever said they believe when our Rapture takes place, that others will "see" us "go up" (I really can think of no one who's said that, come to think of it). Acts 1 is telling how He will "so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM go into..." (which is how His "RETURN" to the earth will indeed be). It was His earlier "[ACTIVE] I ascend" ON FF/His Resurrection Day that was not "SEEN" by anyone (only TOLD to MM)

 

[dcontroversal]

BOTH "parousia" and "erchomai" are used for EACH instance (both His coming for us in our Rapture "IN THE AIR," and His "return" to the earth), but context determines in whose presence He will be [and "where"]; those are distinct for the rapture and His return to the earth (our Rapture being "IN THE AIR" and in no one else's presence except for "the Church which is His body";... and His "return" to the earth when/where everyone still on the earth will see Him.)


And of course, you may recall that I've stated that there is only ONE thing being referred to in 2Th2:1 [ONE SUBJECT in that verse] (the entire verse refers ONLY to "our Rapture"... so the "and" is not there saying this is two distinct things [separated by time], and few pre-tribbers I know even say such a thing, so it's a non-point, as far as I'm concerned... meaning, it changes nothing)

Few ppl I know have ever said they believe when our Rapture takes place, that others will "see" us "go up" (I really can think of no one who's said that, come to think of it). Acts 1 is telling how He will "so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM go into..." (which is how His "RETURN" to the earth will indeed be). It was His earlier "[ACTIVE] I ascend" ON FF/His Resurrection Day that was not "SEEN" by anyone (only TOLD to MM)

Wrong....

His disciples watched him go and will see him come with the clouds in great power and glory
The religious lost will see him come with clouds in power and with great glory
Every kindred, nation and eye will see him come in the clouds with great power and glory

His coming is like lightning that cracks in the east and is SEEN in the west
This is GOD coming......and his coming is SEEN and VISIBLE

Mark 14:26, Matthew 26:64, Luke 21:27, Acts 1:11, Revelation 1:7

There is no such thing as some secret, imminent return of Christ where we go POOF and everyone wonders where we went.........Brethen, you are not in darkness that that day should over take you as a thief!!

ONE coming and ALL things must jive with ONE coming or the conclusions are wrong

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

and I do not see the (definite article) MAN of SIN sitting on the throne claiming to be god and worshiped as god.......and the APO-HYSTAMIE is tied directly to that moment.....

I disagree that his "BE REVEALED" occurs then (v.4). I believe Scripture indicates in many ways that he is revealed at the START of Jesus' opening of the SEALS [when He "STANDS to JUDGE"] at the START of the trib years (not mid-trib or when there is yet remaining 1260 days).

--2Th2:9a "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of the man of sin (equals Dan9:27a[26], BEGINNING [recall: "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"])

--2Th2:4 "who opposeth...exalteth...sitteth" (equals Dan9:27b, MIDDLE [we see these parallels time-wise, elsewhere])

--2Th2:8b "whom the Lord shall... destroy" (equals Dan9:27c, END)


ALL 3 parts in BOTH passages (and the SEALS equal "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse; and Rev1:1 says "things which must come to pass [i.e the 4:1/1:19c "future" aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [NOT "soon [adverb]," not "quickly [adverb]," not "immediately [adverb]"... which is the "7-yrs/70th-Wk" [chpt 4:1 thru chpt 19]).

_____________

The text [of 2Th2] refers to a number of things:

V.1 - the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our episynagoges [noun] unto Him (BOTH OF THESE is our Rapture event [noun])

V.2 - Paul is essentially saying, "don't let anyone convince you that the day of the Lord is present" (the time period involving judgments and very negative things--"Woe unto you who desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light... Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?" Amos 5:18,20)

V.3 - "that day [the time period from the immediately preceding verse, grammatically] will not be present if not shall have come the departure [noun] first, and [this "and" means it is entirely distinct from the previous thing, which was alone "first" (one thing "first" only) ['and' (distinctly)-->] the man of sin be revealed..."


This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence as 1Th4-5 stated.
Here is the color-coded words to illustrate the 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -

1)

the departure first

and the man of sin

be revealed

2)

what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that

he

might be revealed IN HIS TIME

3)

only he who is now [at present] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]

and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked

be revealed


All of the green is referring to the [singular] noun-event of verse 1 (of the context).

Verse 2 is referring to the earthly time period that will thereafter unfold on the earth, [with] the "man of sin" and all he will do, and will involve "judgments" and "the wrath coming" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13, Rev4-5, Lam2:3-4 (which verse I see as parallel to 2Th2:7b-8a)]

 

[azamzimtoti]

Interesting since Preterism and Amillennialism predate dispenstionalism and futurist theology.

(prior to 1850ish most all bible teachers were not of the dispensational view)

Seems to me dispensational (Darby) type thinking started during the end times madness of the 1800's along with the Millerites, that spawned the SDA, Jehovah’s Witnesses etc..