Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[eternally-gratefull]

Encore and Encore!!!

Bravo!

Dispensationalism false teaching through and through

People need to read Matthew 24 with audience relevance ...that is.... to whom was Jesus speaking .... it certainly was not Mr. Hal Lindsey

His entire discourse is time stampled......this generation!

Yes, You need to read matt 24. And dan 9, And so many other passages


NO FLESH WILL SURVIVE.

Not possible in ad 70.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh its coming alright, as a counterfeit.

No one said otherwise.

The prophesy said the temple will be rebuilt. It does not say why..

Prophets said the roman army would rule over jerusalem as the 4th beast.. That was fulfilled literally. As will ALL prophesy that has yet to be fulfilled

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The fact that he indicates that NO FLESH would be left alive in and of itself points to an event way greater that the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D..........and....if it would have been indicative of 70 A.D. JESUS should have returned in the late 60's so as to preserve flesh..........

I do personally believe that Matthew 24 contains dual prophecy concerning both the end of the age and the destruction of the temple in 70 by Titus, but the corresponding chapters of Luke 21 and Mark 13 with the latter half of Matthew 24 clearly point to the end of the age..............

Here is what they do not understand

AD 70 was according to Lev 26:

27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,

28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;

and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

29 You[g] shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.

30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;

and My soul shall abhor you.

31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your [h]sweet aromas.

32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.

33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;

your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

These things came true for the FIRST time for Judah in AD 70 (a partial fulfillment was done by babylon, only it was not fully implemented, As for Isreal (northern kingdom) Assyria was used by God and performed this punishment early in the OT)

It was prophesied it woud happen in the OT

So what happened in ad70 should have been so surprise to anyone,


But this is different than an abomination, which is not punishment, but an act of a hostile force placing an unclean thing in the holy place making IT unclean (desolate)

That is not the same as an army being used by God to punish you for your sins and destroying your city and sanctuary laying them to waste. And scattering you all over the world. That the FLAW in their reasoning.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Exactly......no wonder PAUL SAID...then we which ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN.........think about that truth for a moment brother

Yeah, And it also says whoever endures to the end will be saved.. From what? If there is no kingdom age when Christ returns, what good is it that they remained alive? I mean kill me and take me. That would be a better fate if their is no kingdom age!

 

[crossnote]

When I first came in CC. I was told scofield was a dual covenant theologian (the OT people were saved by law. And would return to law during the tribulation) and because of this, Scofield was a heretic. That was the strawman used by many, When I studied the facts, I found out their information on scofield was incorrect. That he believed all people from adam until the end are saved by grace through faith.

You can tell when people are using these strawmen they have gotten from others when they can not even understand what the person they are attacking even believed.

Even if it was true about Scofield (I have heard different accounts) still it overlooks the fact that their are different flavors of Dispensationalists (from Classical to Revised to Progressive) with the vast majority not holding to a Dual Covenant view.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Even if it was true about Scofield (I have heard different accounts) still it overlooks the fact that their are different flavors of Dispensationalists (from Classical to Revised to Progressive) with the vast majority not holding to a Dual Covenant view.

I only know a few who hold to the dual covenant view.

Its like other discussion. People believe what they are TOLD others believe and have a hard time thinking they were led astray by the people they trust.

We must learn that even our greatest leaders did not get it all right..Thats why we should never follow men. Because even if they get 90 % of their doctrines right, the 10% they get wrong can lead people to a false view of others.. and a false belief in something the bible talks about

 

[crossnote]

We must learn that even our greatest leaders did not get it all right..Thats why we should never follow men. Because even if they get 90 % of their doctrines right, the 10% they get wrong can lead people to a false view of others.. and a false belief in something the bible talks about

Yes, and we won't be able to point to those 'leaders' on Judgment Day, as an excuse.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, and we won't be able to point to those 'leaders' on Judgment Day, as an excuse.

Hit the nail on the head bro. Thats why we are to test all spirits. Not just those who are not our pastors.

 

[dcontroversal]

Here is what they do not understand

AD 70 was according to Lev 26:

27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,

28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;

and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

29 You[g] shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.

30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;

and My soul shall abhor you.

31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your [h]sweet aromas.

32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.

33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;

your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

These things came true for the FIRST time for Judah in AD 70 (a partial fulfillment was done by babylon, only it was not fully implemented, As for Isreal (northern kingdom) Assyria was used by God and performed this punishment early in the OT)

It was prophesied it woud happen in the OT

So what happened in ad70 should have been so surprise to anyone,


But this is different than an abomination, which is not punishment, but an act of a hostile force placing an unclean thing in the holy place making IT unclean (desolate)

That is not the same as an army being used by God to punish you for your sins and destroying your city and sanctuary laying them to waste. And scattering you all over the world. That the FLAW in their reasoning.

AMEN.........like I said....dual prophecy.......

 

[UnderGrace]

AMEN.........like I said....dual prophecy.......

Mr. dcon, a dual prophecy? I have considered this at times?

Can you tell me how you reason this, Jesus does not state that Matthew 24 it will happen twice?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Aww, I got a red X for stating something factual. And calling out a strawman argument, I feel blessed

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Mr. dcon, a dual prophecy? I have considered this at times?

Can you tell me how you reason this, Jesus does not state that Matthew 24 it will happen twice?

?? Not sure what you mean here concerning dual prophesy


Jesus answered three questions in Matt 24 concerning 2 different events.

1. When will not one stone be left on another (the destruction of the city and sanctuary (fulfilled 70 AD)

2. What will be the sign of your coming and the end of this age (The sign of Daniel (abomination of desolation) the great tribulation, and the status of the world at the end, , and then we will see the son of man returning in the clouds)

2 different events, not two different covenants

 

[UnderGrace]

?? Not sure what you mean here concerning dual prophesy


Jesus answered three questions in Matt 24 concerning 2 different events.

1. When will not one stone be left on another (the destruction of the city and sanctuary (fulfilled 70 AD)

2. What will be the sign of your coming and the end of this age (The sign of Daniel (abomination of desolation) the great tribulation, and the status of the world at the end, , and then we will see the son of man returning in the clouds)

2 different events, not two different covenants

Sorry EG, this topic is obviously a hot button issue for you, not sure I will continue the dialogue with you, I am never writing personally but my posts are interpreted that way, even though I stay away from personal pronouns.

So I am not sure what else I can do.

I also feel insulted that you could infer I do not know my history, when I actually have an undergraduate degree in "International Relations" a five year program, as well as post graduate degrees, and I do not feel comfortable really referencing my background except for the fact that you have made assumptions about what I know and do not know.

I will admit the Old Testament is not my strong suit and I am still putting a lot of this together as I study, but I know my Ancient Roman History well, and Matthew 24 has been completely fulfilled.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry EG, this topic is obviously a hot button issue for you, not sure I will continue the dialogue with you, I am never writing personally but my posts are interpreted that way, even though I stay away from personal pronouns.

So I am not sure what else I can do.

I also feel insulted that you could infer I do not know my history, when I actually have an undergraduate degree in "International Relations" a five year program, as well as post graduate degrees, and I do not feel comfortable really referencing my background except for the fact that you have made assumptions about what I know and do not know.

I will admit the Old Testament is not my strong suit and I am still putting a lot of this together as I study, but I know my Ancient Roman History well, and Matthew 24 has been completely fulfilled.

I am sorry if asking you questions seem offensive to you.. Your stating stuff that makes no sense

Case in point, You just stated that matt 24 has been completely fulfilled, so When did Christ return?

Here.

Matt 24: Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When did this happen?

 

[dcontroversal]

Mr. dcon, a dual prophecy? I have considered this at times?

Can you tell me how you reason this, Jesus does not state that Matthew 24 it will happen twice?

Matthew 24 contains dual prophecy blended together......part of it is fully applicable to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by Titus and part of it is fully applicable unto the the end of the age....Like Revelation which is not in chronological order and contains past, present and future context when written....Matthew 24 is similar.....and this is nothing new and found in numerous places in the bible...Joel's prophecy comes to mind as well.....Believe it or not the "QUESTIONS" they ask is really one question primarily concerned with the coming of Christ at the end of the age.....Luke also carries the same blended dual prophecy.........as a matter of fact this principle is found woven all throughout the bible....The destruction of Babylon as described in Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Habakkuk, Revelation etc. contains the fall of classical Babylon woven in with the future destruction of another entity identified as Babylon........

 

[UnderGrace]

Matthew 24 contains dual prophecy blended together......part of it is fully applicable to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by Titus and part of it is fully applicable unto the the end of the age....Like Revelation which is not in chronological order and contains past, present and future context when written....Matthew 24 is similar.....and this is nothing new and found in numerous places in the bible...Joel's prophecy comes to mind as well.....Believe it or not the "QUESTIONS" they ask is really one question primarily concerned with the coming of Christ at the end of the age.....Luke also carries the same blended dual prophecy.........as a matter of fact this principle is found woven all throughout the bible....The destruction of Babylon as described in Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Habakkuk, Revelation etc. contains the fall of classical Babylon woven in with the future destruction of another entity identified as Babylon........

Okay, interesting, hold that thought.

So can then I assume you agree that 70 AD did in fact fulfill the prophecy of Matthew 24?

So now we need to tackle what you raised before about "no flesh being saved"

I have to go back and read it in context

 

[azamzimtoti]

The problem I see for most eschatologies is a failure to believe the various time statements in the new testament.

(Acts 2:17 'And in the last days it will be,' God says, 'that I will pour out my Spirit on all people, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.)

(Acts 3:24 And all the prophets, from Samuel and those who followed him, have spoken about and announced these days.)

(Acts 3:25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your ancestors, saying to Abraham, 'And in your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed.')

We have in the above Peter stating they are in the "last days", and that all the prophets from Samuel "announced these days "

We have Paul stating that the goals of the ages were upon them:

1 Cor 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come)

end = telos from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)

John writes in his letter at the end of Peter's "last days" that they were in the "last hour" of the days that were "announced " by all the prophets from Samuel and those that followed him.

(1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and just as you heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. We know from this that it is the last hour.)

 

[dcontroversal]

Okay, interesting, hold that thought.

So can then I assume you agree that 70 AD did in fact fulfill the prophecy of Matthew 24?

So now we need to tackle what you raised before about "no flesh being saved"

I have to go back and read it in context

70 A.D. fulfilled the part of the prophecy that was applicable to 70 A.D and the disciples.......and yet there are several things that were not fulfilled in 70 that cannot be applied unto 70 A.D.....also.....the prophecies about wars, rumors of wars, famines etc.....are all applicable to the last 2000 years and like the BIRTH PAINS predicted = an increase in severity, frequency and amount.....there is A LOT to put together.....but it is there for sure when ALL the scriptures are applied in Matthew, Mark, Luke, Revelation, Thessalonians, and the prophecies of the O.T.........A lot of truth to cover

 

[UnderGrace]

70 A.D. fulfilled the part of the prophecy that was applicable to 70 A.D and the disciples.......and yet there are several things that were not fulfilled in 70 that cannot be applied unto 70 A.D.....also.....the prophecies about wars, rumors of wars, famines etc.....are all applicable to the last 2000 years and like the BIRTH PAINS predicted = an increase in severity, frequency and amount.....there is A LOT to put together.....but it is there for sure when ALL the scriptures are applied in Matthew, Mark, Luke, Revelation, Thessalonians, and the prophecies of the O.T.........A lot of truth to cover

Excellent, hold that thought too.

I will respond, you can reject it, not a problem, I just want to present the other side.

Is this okay Mr. dcon?

 

[dcontroversal]

Excellent, hold that thought too.

I will respond, you can reject it, not a problem, I just want to present the other side.

Is this okay Mr. dcon?

Obviously Grace HAH