Are these beliefs sufficient for salvation?

[FollowHisSteps]

You are correct there. The instructions for establishing a doctrine is as follows, stated in both the OT and NT

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1: This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Would you change your mind if you realized there are a few other verses that establish the same doctrine that believers are not supposed to be conscious of sins?

Hebrews 10:2, 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

This was repeated one more time at Hebrews 8

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Now, if that is not enough, other passages from Paul emphasized that the law is not meant for the believer, thus no sin can be imputed when there is no law, 1 Timothy 1:9, Romans 5:13, Romans 6:4, Romans 4:8.

Now that you have realized these passages exist, is it easier for you to understand?

Let me say simply, the Lord forgets past sins if one walks in His ways and repents of sin.
I can see how if you hold repentance is for past, present and future sin, that means as
you are sinning the Lord would not count that as sin. The logic makes sense but contradicts
Gods nature and revelation.

19 Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness
2 Tim 2

1 Timothy 1:9 Law is made for those who break it, ie we do not break it because we love
Rom 5:13 But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. ( law is innate in nature )
Rom 6:4 we too may live a new life ( a life in righteous walking )
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him ( past sin )

You cannot be counted as sinful because of sin you may or may not commit in the future.
If you hold Jesus called us to walk in His perfect way, and it is possible that one day we
can achieve this, future sin is not inevitable.

11 He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it.
1 Peter 3

11 Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God.
3 John 1

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good
Rom 12

26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.
27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life.
Eze 18

2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.
Heb 10:2

What was Pauls dedication to keeping the law?

5 a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;
6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
Phil 3

The ways of God
1. Accepting individual sins need to be worked through, confessed and resolved
2. Repentance has 4 stages, forsaking sin, regret sin, confession of sin, receiving forgiveness
3. Walking righteously, 3 steps, faith, heart, action
4. Abiding in Jesus, dwelling in His words, Praise, and rejoicing in all things
5. Obedience to Jesus's commands, walking as He walked
6. Faith in Jesus and the cross, that He will bring us through to this walk

Praise the Lord for His blessing, Amen

 

[FollowHisSteps]

You are correct there. The instructions for establishing a doctrine is as follows, stated in both the OT and NT

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1: This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Would you change your mind if you realized there are a few other verses that establish the same doctrine that believers are not supposed to be conscious of sins?

Hebrews 10:2, 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

This was repeated one more time at Hebrews 8

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Now, if that is not enough, other passages from Paul emphasized that the law is not meant for the believer, thus no sin can be imputed when there is no law, 1 Timothy 1:9, Romans 5:13, Romans 6:4, Romans 4:8.

Now that you have realized these passages exist, is it easier for you to understand?

Everything you are holding to falls apart if we can truly walk as Jesus walked through
dwelling in Him and through Him and by Him.

This is what the apostles pointed to because they dwelt with Him for 3 years. They knew the
walk of Jesus.

Sin needs to be understood alongside forgiveness, loving others and loving Jesus.
Jesus and worship of Him, repenting and resolving sin, is not difficult. But stubborn hearts
rebel and refuse to resolve life issues, because then they can stay the same and feel good
about themselves, as the world strives to do.

 

[Didymous]

No.
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your
mouth that you confess and are saved.
Rom 10

This isn't necessary for salvation. If it is, then a mute person can't be saved.

 

[Guojing]

Let me say simply, the Lord forgets past sins if one walks in His ways and repents of sin.
I can see how if you hold repentance is for past, present and future sin, that means as
you are sinning the Lord would not count that as sin. The logic makes sense but contradicts
Gods nature and revelation.

I see, so to confirm, in your opinion, you don't believe its possible for God not to impute sin to the righteous, period.

So in your view, Romans 5:13 and Romans 4:8 make no sense to you. In your view, one must always repent of his sin, and walk in God's ways, THEN God will not impute sin on you.

Am I correct in understanding what you believe in?

 

[Hungry]

So you lean towards the view that it is faith + works that lead to salvation?

I lean toward what Christ Himself said. Read John 15 and tell me what you think. It doesn’t get any clearer. He is the vine we are the branches. We can only survive while attached to the vine. If the vine doesn’t produce fruit it is removed. His commandments are to love others as He loved us. Whoever obeys His commandments loves Him and He will testify in front of the Father on our behalf.

You can’t be saved without faith. True, but it’s slightly more complicated than just that. Once you are saved, you lay down your life and pick up your cross.

 

[Guojing]

I lean toward what Christ Himself said. Read John 15 and tell me what you think. It doesn’t get any clearer. He is the vine we are the branches. We can only survive while attached to the vine. If the vine doesn’t produce fruit it is removed. His commandments are to love others as He loved us. Whoever obeys His commandments loves Him and He will testify in front of the Father on our behalf.

You can’t be saved without faith. True, but it’s slightly more complicated than just that. Once you are saved, you lay down your life and pick up your cross.

Thanks for stating your views clearly.

For me, I adopt a more dispensational view towards the Bible. I believe that Jesus was preaching under the dispensation of Law during the 4 Gospels and the New dispensation of Grace only began after he was resurrected from the dead.

Long story short, I take my church doctrine mainly from the Apostle Paul who teach from the words from the ascended Christ, rather than Christ in the flesh (2 Corinthians 5:16).

But yeah I understand many churches preach mostly from the 4 Gospels so I can understand where you are coming from.

 

[Didymous]

That Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for my sins, that Jesus rose again on the third day, and that Jesus is Lord of all creation?

Yes, those beliefs are sufficient. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. Sometimes people confuse what comes after salvation, as part of salvation.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I see, so to confirm, in your opinion, you don't believe its possible for God not to impute sin to the righteous, period.

So in your view, Romans 5:13 and Romans 4:8 make no sense to you. In your view, one must always repent of his sin, and walk in God's ways, THEN God will not impute sin on you.

Am I correct in understanding what you believe in?

Rom 5:13 But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

There is no circumstance where there is no moral law. It is why the lost are accountable.
It is why we have a conscience, have knowledge of good and evil. Paul is saying the law
helps us see what sin is, else we would be innocent.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him

My sin is forgiven, but not sin that I have not yet committed, or may never commit as there
is no inevitability in Christ to commit sin.

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
1 John 3

These concepts to some may seem minor, but the whole of redemption hangs on them,
and accountability before the throne of God. Lawlessness which you are suggesting is the
state of believers in Christ is the opposite of the Kingdom of God.

The man of lawlessness is who? The anti-Christ.

3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come
until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the
man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called
God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple,
proclaiming himself to be God.
2 Thess 2

So we are not under the law because in love we fulfil it.

10 Love does no harm to its neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law.
Rom 13

2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:2

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
Gal 5

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law
1 Cor 9:20

15 Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Rom 6

 

[Hungry]

Even Paul preached what Christ taught. Faith without works is dead. You are taking only the milk of Paul’s message and ignoring the meat. It’s like the seeker churches of today.

It’s really simple. We were created by God to work. Instead of being good employees we stole from the boss and were fired. Some of us decided to be self employed (fleshy) and others work for His competition (former CEO, Lucifer) He’s starting a new company and destroying this one. Those who want to return to His employment need to accept the new CEO, His Son, Christ. He is filling positions now as an internship. We work for free until the New Earth. Then we become co-owners. It’s about His workforce, it always has been.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Rom 5:13 But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Paul is establishing a concept here. That guilt for sin occurs because the law
is present to tell us what sin is. If we had no law, we would not be aware of sin.

Now when Paul says we are not under law but under grace, he is not saying we
have no law, he is saying we fulfil the law through love, so its rules fail to convict
us, because we obey the law of love, which is the foundation of the law of God.

He is trying to explain why we no longer need to be Jews, with a temple and ceremonies,
but can live in love and the Spirit, dwelling in communion with God in our hearts.

Some will teach Pauls instructions about not being under law, apply to moral law as
well, and he was open to sinning and not feeling a bad conscience or conviction of sin.

What they do not know, is Paul was hyper sensitive to ones conscience condemning him,
to the extent of saying we needed to keep a clean conscience in things of faith, and should
never do things that contradict our faith positions. He was talking about food sacrificed to
idols, and the freedom some had, while others felt it was wrong, or being a vegetarian.

Our goal is perfection, and to walk like Jesus. It is really this simple and also this hard,
yet in love, with a cleansed purified heart, it is our nature in God, slaves to righteousness.

 

[Hungry]

Rom 5:13 But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Paul is establishing a concept here. That guilt for sin occurs because the law
is present to tell us what sin is. If we had no law, we would not be aware of sin.

Now when Paul says we are not under law but under grace, he is not saying we
have no law, he is saying we fulfil the law through love, so its rules fail to convict
us, because we obey the law of love, which is the foundation of the law of God.

He is trying to explain why we no longer need to be Jews, with a temple and ceremonies,
but can live in love and the Spirit, dwelling in communion with God in our hearts.

Some will teach Pauls instructions about not being under law, apply to moral law as
well, and he was open to sinning and not feeling a bad conscience or conviction of sin.

What they do not know, is Paul was hyper sensitive to ones conscience condemning him,
to the extent of saying we needed to keep a clean conscience in things of faith, and should
never do things that contradict our faith positions. He was talking about food sacrificed to
idols, and the freedom some had, while others felt it was wrong, or being a vegetarian.

Our goal is perfection, and to walk like Jesus. It is really this simple and also this hard,
yet in love, with a cleansed purified heart, it is our nature in God, slaves to righteousness.

From lack of time I haven’t read the rest of your posts but it’s clear you get it! Because you understand this I will add to your understanding. The tree in the Garden, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil: is guilt. This is why forgiveness has been made necessary. First with sacrificing animals. It doesn’t remove “sin”, it only removes guilt. Guilt impedes our spiritual connection with the Almighty, any guilt. This is why we need to forgive others, to not prevent them from hearing God. We are forgiven to reconnect. We are reconnected to hear Him, to serve Him.

 

[Adstar]

Do you hold that even though Jesus cleanses and purifies us we are still bound
to sin?

We still sin.. The doctrine that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit causes one to live a sinless life is a false doctrine..

No one ceases to sin completely untill they are reasurected and transformed by God into eternal perfect beings..

 

[FollowHisSteps]

We still sin.. The doctrine that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit causes one to live a sinless life is a false doctrine..

No one ceases to sin completely untill they are reasurected and transformed by God into eternal perfect beings..

This is not actually either excluded or included in scripture.
Paul says simply this is our aim, our struggle, our goal.
John implies to believe one has achieved it one is sinning.

Only God can declare achievement, but this is our walk.

28 We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom,
so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.
Col 1

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect,
but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Phil 3

11 Aim for perfection
2 Cor 13

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1

Now this tension, is our walk. We can still sin, but this is not inevitable.
That is the walk of love, knowing the tension, and walking in love.

Some teach any tension is evil or even aspiring is self condemning so give up
the goal altogether and merely focus of praising Jesus. This is giving up on the
cross and the power of the resurrection, which is our calling.

The Spirit means we can walk in love, and love fulfils the law. So that is our
calling and our walk.

 

[Guojing]

Rom 5:13 But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

There is no circumstance where there is no moral law. It is why the lost are accountable.
It is why we have a conscience, have knowledge of good and evil. Paul is saying the law
helps us see what sin is, else we would be innocent.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him

My sin is forgiven, but not sin that I have not yet committed, or may never commit as there
is no inevitability in Christ to commit sin.

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
1 John 3

These concepts to some may seem minor, but the whole of redemption hangs on them,
and accountability before the throne of God. Lawlessness which you are suggesting is the
state of believers in Christ is the opposite of the Kingdom of God.

The man of lawlessness is who? The anti-Christ.

3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come
until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the
man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called
God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple,
proclaiming himself to be God.
2 Thess 2

So we are not under the law because in love we fulfil it.

10 Love does no harm to its neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law.
Rom 13

2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:2

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
Gal 5

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law
1 Cor 9:20

15 Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Rom 6

Er so is your reply yes or no? Did I understand you correctly?

 

[Guojing]

Even Paul preached what Christ taught. Faith without works is dead. You are taking only the milk of Paul’s message and ignoring the meat. It’s like the seeker churches of today.

It’s really simple. We were created by God to work. Instead of being good employees we stole from the boss and were fired. Some of us decided to be self employed (fleshy) and others work for His competition (former CEO, Lucifer) He’s starting a new company and destroying this one. Those who want to return to His employment need to accept the new CEO, His Son, Christ. He is filling positions now as an internship. We work for free until the New Earth. Then we become co-owners. It’s about His workforce, it always has been.

It’s okay, no need to convince me. Many Christians put the 4 gospels as prime importance, I understand why u have that belief.

 

[Adstar]

We should strive to do good works and strive to resist sin... But this is just engaging in a life long battle,, it is not winning it.. Fighting evil and striving to do good is noble.. However, The Victory is The Messiah's Not ours.. We whom believe and trust in Jesus are deemed righteous by God by the gift of the Atonement of Jesus, our sins are cover by His blood, which we have placed our trust in.. Paul was a sinner when he wrote His letters and was doing his ministry.. He introduced a faithful saying that should be accepted by all Christians He said ( and note the tense of the statement)

1 Timothy 1: KJV
15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

Paul never said of whom i once was Chief .. Or of whom i was formerly a Chief.. He said I am Chief He was still a sinner as we all are..

 

[Guojing]

We should strive to do good works and strive to resist sin... But this is just engaging in a life long battle,, it is not winning it.. Fighting evil and striving to do good is noble.. However, The Victory is The Messiah's Not ours.. We whom believe and trust in Jesus are deemed righteous by God by the gift of the Atonement of Jesus, our sins are cover by His blood, which we have placed our trust in.. Paul was a sinner when he wrote His letters and was doing his ministry.. He introduced a faithful saying that should be accepted by all Christians He said ( and note the tense of the statement)

1 Timothy 1: KJV
15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

Paul never said of whom i once was Chief .. Or of whom i was formerly a Chief.. He said I am Chief He was still a sinner as we all are..

From this perspective, can I conclude you do not see yourself as a Trinity? Do you believe that you are a spirit, you possess a soul, and you live in a body?

 

[know1]

That Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for my sins, that Jesus rose again on the third day, and that Jesus is Lord of all creation?

Answer, NO.
It doesn't matter what you believe. If it doesn't become personal for the personal AND ACTED ON, nothing will happen.

 

[Adstar]

From this perspective, can I conclude you do not see yourself as a Trinity? Do you believe that you are a spirit, you possess a soul, and you live in a body?

Explain how you can conclude that from my post?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

I see, so to confirm, in your opinion, you don't believe its possible for God not to impute sin to the righteous, period.

So in your view, Romans 5:13 and Romans 4:8 make no sense to you. In your view, one must always repent of his sin, and walk in God's ways, THEN God will not impute sin on you.

Am I correct in understanding what you believe in?

Er so is your reply yes or no? Did I understand you correctly?

13 But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
Rom 5

8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him
Rom 4

Yes I understand these verses but not in the context you believe them to be.
The problem with verses is some stand alone, some only stand within a fuller
context of an argument.

Rom 5:13 is a difficult discussion. But it sits well if Paul is saying the law gives
us the window into what sin is, without which we would not be guilty.
Paul summarises arguments that are very large. How are the lost found guilty
of sin? Because justice is innate within creation and our hearts. Every society
ends up with similar principles and objectives. So attempting to deny morality
by grace is miss-guided, and certainly not what Paul is teaching.