A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES

[jordh24]

But edification comes from the Word. That's why we have the living, God breathed Word.

If all we need is the Word to edify ourselves, then we do not need worship? we do not need communion? we do not need fellowship? Edification does come from the Word but it is not the only form of edification.

 

[obedienttogod]

Yes, I remember Polycarp the Martyr, from Fox's Book of Martyr's. Irenaeus, I do not remember. So I had to read about him, and I found an interesting quote by HIM. It appears it lasted as long as apostles generation were still alive, from this Catholic book about St. Irenaeus, dated approximately 180. Irenaeus did not die until 202, so that means he was still alive and already a Catholic Saint when this book was Published.

Here is the quote: “We speak wisdom among them that are perfect,” terming those persons “perfect” who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, . . ."

https://unsettledchristianity.com/irenaeus-on-the-spiritual-need-of-speaking-in-tongues/


Notice in the Pink, it rules out any ecstatic utterances. HOWEVER IT SAYS Irenaeus USED to speak in TONGUES. Implying in his younger years he used to speak in TONGUES, and that he could no longer do it. So then the Cessation may have happened around 130. So the NEWS of other Christians could have been way later, and The Cathololic writer HAS NO FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE OF TONGUES CONTINUING.

We know Catholics do not believe in Tongues, and this Catholic writer could be like the Catholic writer who claimed Calvin committed sodomy!!



Then he should not have taught his own Disciples the Gifts continue including tongues since I have quotes by them from 90 A.D. till now!!

230 A.D.
Irenaus student Tertullian "such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart." Utterances, inspired "by the Spirit, in an ecstasy, that is in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred," were "forthcoming" from his side "without any difficulty"

Do you want Tertullian's students and their students and so forth?

They all claim it has not ceased and getting more active every day!!

 

[PennEd]

Is God not the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow?

Malichi 3:6 "For I, the LORD, do not change..."

Psalm 102:27 "But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end."

If we believe that God never changes, why would the signs he provides change?

This is kinda silly reasoning.

God said to sacrifice animals to atone for sin. We KNOW that is no longer necessary since Jesus is the perfect, once for all Sacrifice. There are many other examples.

So God didn't change. The ways He relates to us does. Which is of course part of His plan, that HE knew all along.

 

[PennEd]

If all we need is the Word to edify ourselves, then we do not need worship? we do not need communion? we do not need fellowship? Edification does come from the Word but it is not the only form of edification.

We worship to praise God. What does that have to do with edification? We fellowship for a variety of reasons. One of which is to use the WORD to edify each other.

 

[obedienttogod]

Need to log, will answer when return...

God Bless You Brothers and sisters in Yeshua!!

 

[PennEd]

Quite similar to what obedienttogod has shared, often times it is warnings to the church or even to a particular person. In one service an interpretation was for a particular person. The interpretation said essentially said to stop wandering like the nation of Isreal and return to Him.

And how do you know the interpretation is from God?

 

[jordh24]

This is kinda silly reasoning.

God said to sacrifice animals to atone for sin. We KNOW that is no longer necessary since Jesus is the perfect, once for all Sacrifice. There are many other examples.

So God didn't change. The ways He relates to us does. Which is of course part of His plan, that HE knew all along.

Those fit under two Covenants. There is the Old Testament Covenant that required animal sacrifice, and required God to speak down on humanity.

We are now under the New Convenant, in which Jesus covers our sins, and God lives within us and speaks through us by signs and miracles through the Holy Spirit.

There was a change in covenants, where his methods did change. But there has been NO new covenant since the new testament convenant and as a result, His method stays the same.

 

[jordh24]

And how do you know the interpretation is from God?

You can discern it in your Spirit. God will inform you through the Spirit whether it is true or not. You can feel it in the Spirit.

 

[jordh24]

I need to log off, I am off to church Bible study, I shall return with my answers.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is God not the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow?

Malichi 3:6 "For I, the LORD, do not change..."

Psalm 102:27 "But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end."

If we believe that God never changes, why would the signs he provides change?

I do not think he changes either

But they way he has responded to mankind has changed many times over mans life on earth.

He is the one that spoke against seeking a sign. Not me.. So not sure of your point.

I understand completely God using a gift to share the gospel or something about him to someone who speaks a different language

But to do things using these so calls “signs” when he can do the same exact thing without signs, and in fact, edify the people and the church and the world even more, because they actually SEE God at work.. Well I am sorry, I just can not understand it.

If it was real. it would happen in alot more churches don’t you think?

I mean there are many denominations. And many churches, who all have the same root which is christ, And the Same Holy Spirit who works in them all. Why is it only one select group that God choses to work that way in?

 

[PennEd]

Those fit under two Covenants. There is the Old Testament Covenant that required animal sacrifice, and required God to speak down on humanity.

We are now under the New Convenant, in which Jesus covers our sins, and God lives within us and speaks through us by signs and miracles through the Holy Spirit.

There was a change in covenants, where his methods did change. But there has been NO new covenant since the new testament convenant and as a result, His method stays the same.

Yeah I know. That's just the point about whether tongues are still active and necessary.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do understand what glossia means:

But the word Paul uses is the Greek word γλώσσες which means Tongues.
The Greek word that looks similar to γλώσσες is γλώσσα.

Yes, similar in appearance but very different in translation and meaning.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

This verse ^ is very clear which form is being used: γλώσσες which means Tongues.

Actually, That is an old enlgish word there, it is not really a modern day word.
It would be better to interpret it to todays language (which woudl be language) instead of still using an outdated word. Which again, Cause people to look at it with suspicion.

Its called hurting your own cause!

 

[PennEd]

You can discern it in your Spirit. God will inform you through the Spirit whether it is true or not. You can feel it in the Spirit.

I'm sorry young man, but we are NOT to live by our feelings. But I AM glad you have succinctly identified the problem with this issue.

But it begs the question, how do you or me or anyone KNOW your feelings are true?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So the orginal texts do use the word tongues?

Um Again, Language would be the proper interpretation (using todays language)

The word “language” was not used in the early english bibles so they used the word which for that day represented what we today know as languages.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Quite similar to what obedienttogod has shared, often times it is warnings to the church or even to a particular person. In one service an interpretation was for a particular person. The interpretation said essentially said to stop wandering like the nation of Isreal and return to Him.

I have heard many a pastor say God told them to tell their church this (in english I may add)
Is this from God, or is this just some people saying what they think God wants us to hear?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If all we need is the Word to edify ourselves, then we do not need worship? we do not need communion? we do not need fellowship? Edification does come from the Word but it is not the only form of edification.

The NT church thought worship or edification came from the word. Prayer, Breaking bread (eating together) and fellowship. And they continued in that as a means of growth.

They did not have “church” as many modern day churches have “church” In fact from all accounts, It appears they only met at the begining of the week to receive instruction, and take up an offering.

Most church activities occurred in peoples homes. Or what we today call home churches.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Those fit under two Covenants. There is the Old Testament Covenant that required animal sacrifice, and required God to speak down on humanity.

We are now under the New Convenant, in which Jesus covers our sins, and God lives within us and speaks through us by signs and miracles through the Holy Spirit.

There was a change in covenants, where his methods did change. But there has been NO new covenant since the new testament convenant and as a result, His method stays the same.

What about before the law was given? What about how the OLD testament people were saved?

Has God really changed?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You can discern it in your Spirit. God will inform you through the Spirit whether it is true or not. You can feel it in the Spirit.

People kill other people. And claim Gods spirit discerned it in their spirit that this was Gods will

People have left their spouses and gotten a divorce. Saying Gods spirit informed them it was his will to have this other woman

People have done many things, and claimed it was Gods spirit who confirmed with their spirit it was what God wanted.

I would suggest this is not something we should use as proof that God is in what we think he is in. Even satan comes as an angel of light.. Sadly I fear many times, when we think we hear God, it is our flesh, or even satan and his army we are hearing, and Not god..

Just saying bro

 

[crossnote]

There was a change in covenants, where his methods did change. But there has been NO new covenant since the new testament convenant and as a result, His method stays the same.

Are you saying there are two covenants running side-by-side?

 

[UnderGrace]

I do understand what glossia means:

But the word Paul uses is the Greek word γλώσσες which means Tongues.
The Greek word that looks similar to γλώσσες is γλώσσα.

Yes, similar in appearance but very different in translation and meaning.

ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Α΄ 13:1 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

This verse ^ is very clear which form is being used: γλώσσες which means Tongues.

For someone so versed in languages you should know that "tongues" is the dated word for "language."

Like in french , the other language you speak, the word langué which means both language and physical tongue depending on context.