Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit

[RickyZ]

exactly

so not one of them has the right to post any of their so called experiences and expect us to believe them while they say we are unreliable, speak by a demon, cannot tell the difference between the Holy or the unholy spirit and basically mock

prepare yourself for alot of beating around the bush and I didn't mean it that way and you misunderstood

not only do they see through a glass darkly, but someone is using a fog machine on their glass also

the devil comes as an angel of light. now it seems we have no discernment but they do

you can't make this stuff up

I think we need to pull this back on topic, blaspheme, altho it's reasonable to touch on specific gifts that are most often denied.

And we must remember there is a difference between being misinformed, and actually coming out and speaking the words. I think the latter is a very small group.

But to re-derail my own thread, I wonder, sometimes...

Paul said we won't all speak in tongues (or healing or et al). So it's ridiculous for any of us to think we all should. For those who don't, could the fact that they don't color their study on the subject? Could there be an element in cessationism, that tries to explain why some people don't receive it in the face of those who falsely claim they must?

 

[RickyZ]

That a boy you play nice indeed.

I have my moments

 

[KnowMe]

I have my moments

Don’t we all but why have a ignore list?

 

[Noose]

Why are people still arguing?

1. The gifts ceased, all of them including teaching and evangelism. This is very scriptural and probably explains why narrow is the road and very few find it. Very few means very few.

2. It is not blasphemous to call out the Charismatic claims as fakes.

We know from the scriptures (Acts 2). Peter was mocked after they spoke in tongues, genuine tongues. Peter did not play the Blasphemy card, he preached and they were convicted and they asked "..what shall we do..?". Peter's response was, "..repent, each one of you, for the remission of your sins and your descendants after you..", otherwise Peter had the choice to tell them, "there's no hope for you and your descendants".

3. Saying that the gifts have ceased, is not mocking and even if it is, it is only mocking you and not the Holy spirit, unless you are claiming to be the Holy spirit. The reason, i insist, you are not aware of your lofty claims.

 

[KnowMe]

Why are people still arguing?

1. The gifts ceased, all of them including teaching and evangelism. This is very scriptural and probably explains why narrow is the road and very few find it. Very few means very few.

2. It is not blasphemous to call out the Charismatic claims as fakes.

We know from the scriptures (Acts 2). Peter was mocked after they spoke in tongues, genuine tongues. Peter did not play the Blasphemy card, he preached and they were convicted and they asked "..what shall we do..?". Peter's response was, "..repent, each one of you, for the remission of your sins and your descendants after you..", otherwise Peter had the choice to tell them, "there's no hope for you and your descendants".

3. Saying that the gifts have ceased, is not mocking and even if it is, it is only mocking you and not the Holy spirit, unless you are claiming to be the Holy spirit. The reason, i insist, you are not aware of your lofty claims.

Who you talking too?

 

[obedienttogod]

1.The bible itself says the gifts will cease; according to you, this means that God will change?!
2.Did the gifts start at Pentecost? does it mean God changed at that moment?
3. Are you serious?

It does say that WHEN that which is perfect comes.
The Holy Ghost is perfect, but it was already there before Paul wrote what you are implying.

So then, what else is perfect that was still yet to come?
The Return of Yeshua for His Bride!!

Has that happened, Yeshua who is PERFECT, has He returned?
Not yet.

Those Gifts therefore have not ceased yet!!



Oh, I am VERY SERIOUS!!

 

[Noose]

Who you talking too?

No one.

 

[Noose]

It does say that WHEN that which is perfect comes.
The Holy Ghost is perfect, but it was already there before Paul wrote what you are implying.

So then, what else is perfect that was still yet to come?
The Return of Yeshua for His Bride!!

Has that happened, Yeshua who is PERFECT, has He returned?
Not yet.

Those Gifts therefore have not ceased yet!!



Oh, I am VERY SERIOUS!!

Doesn't matter, your claims that God doesn't change therefore gifts can not cease is defeated.
Q. When the perfect comes, will God change?!

But when?

Heb 10:24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
....
36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For, “In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”

The day was fast approaching and the one who was to come must have not delayed, and this are the words spoken in the 1st century.
21st century is a delay by all standards. I choose to believe that the one who was to come, came.

 

[obedienttogod]

Doesn't matter, your claims that God doesn't change therefore gifts can not cease is defeated.
Q. When the perfect comes, will God change?!

But when?

Heb 10:24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
....
36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For, “In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”

The day was fast approaching and the one who was to come must have not delayed, and this are the words spoken in the 1st century.
21st century is a delay by all standards. I choose to believe that the one who was to come, came.

I guess possibly within your own mind you believe about Not changing and Ceasing.


We went from the Law to Grace, but that was not change but the plan of God.
We went from sacrificing animals to Yeshua, but that was the plan of God.
We went from Hebrew/Jews only to now anyone can be saved, but that was not change but the plan of God.
We went from the introduction of the Holy Spirit and it's Gifts to waiting for that which is perfect to come, but that was not change but God's plan.



Are you a proponent for 70 A.D.?

If so, You believe Revelations was written before 70 A.D.?

Here is something for you:

This was documented in 107 A.D.

The Disciple of the Apostle John (writer of Revelations), Polycarp (A.D. 70-155), who was himself a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote: "in like manner do we also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms 'spiritual', they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit".

Look when the Apostle John's Disciple, Polycarp, was born?
70 A.D.

How can someone not born yet be a Disciple?
Factual records have John writing in Revelations in 96 A.D. and was imprisoned by Domitian, who DID NOT REIGN until 82 A.D., some 12 years AFTER 70 A.D. and the Destruction.

But this Disciple of John proves they were still speaking in Tongues after the Apostles were gone.

I have an entire list from 90 A.D. - 250 A.D. of those we consider church fathers. Even the COUNCIL who put our Canon together Spoke in Tongues.

The BIBLE you read, was assembled by TONGUE SPEAKERS in the 4th Century!!




So tell me, when did PERFECT COME, that you believe in???

 

[Noose]

I guess possibly within your own mind you believe about Not changing and Ceasing.


We went from the Law to Grace, but that was not change but the plan of God.
We went from sacrificing animals to Yeshua, but that was the plan of God.
We went from Hebrew/Jews only to now anyone can be saved, but that was not change but the plan of God.
We went from the introduction of the Holy Spirit and it's Gifts to waiting for that which is perfect to come, but that was not change but God's plan.



Are you a proponent for 70 A.D.?

If so, You believe Revelations was written before 70 A.D.?

Here is something for you:

This was documented in 107 A.D.

The Disciple of the Apostle John (writer of Revelations), Polycarp (A.D. 70-155), who was himself a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote: "in like manner do we also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms 'spiritual', they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit".

Look when the Apostle John's Disciple, Polycarp, was born?
70 A.D.

How can someone not born yet be a Disciple?
Factual records have John writing in Revelations in 96 A.D. and was imprisoned by Domitian, who DID NOT REIGN until 82 A.D., some 12 years AFTER 70 A.D. and the Destruction.

But this Disciple of John proves they were still speaking in Tongues after the Apostles were gone.

I have an entire list from 90 A.D. - 250 A.D. of those we consider church fathers. Even the COUNCIL who put our Canon together Spoke in Tongues.

The BIBLE you read, was assembled by TONGUE SPEAKERS in the 4th Century!!




So tell me, when did PERFECT COME, that you believe in???

That's right.

We also went from Gifts to cessation, but that was not change but God's plan.

Jer 31:
31“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.

32It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to d them, e ”
declares the Lord.

33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

70 AD?! I don't believe nothing about 70 AD.

 

[Noose]

So tell me, when did PERFECT COME, that you believe in???

The perfect came, it's been several millennia now and was described by John here.

1 John 4:

7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

The perfect is knowing God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Remember the op. It states if someone is a Cessationist. That they basically are doomed forever with no hope of repentance.

why? Because the blasphemy of the spirit will NEVER BE FORGIVEN. Once you commit the sin, Your lost with no hope.

I mean it is one thing to defend your belief, but it is a far cry other to condemn a whole group of people, Imagine how many people have truly received Christ, and did many works through the power of God, and was a mature brother in christ, being sent to hell because he did not believe in a few gifts

 

[UnderGrace]

I guess possibly within your own mind you believe about Not changing and Ceasing.


We went from the Law to Grace, but that was not change but the plan of God.
We went from sacrificing animals to Yeshua, but that was the plan of God.
We went from Hebrew/Jews only to now anyone can be saved, but that was not change but the plan of God.
We went from the introduction of the Holy Spirit and it's Gifts to waiting for that which is perfect to come, but that was not change but God's plan.



Are you a proponent for 70 A.D.?

If so, You believe Revelations was written before 70 A.D.?

Here is something for you:

This was documented in 107 A.D.

The Disciple of the Apostle John (writer of Revelations), Polycarp (A.D. 70-155), who was himself a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote: "in like manner do we also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms 'spiritual', they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit".

Look when the Apostle John's Disciple, Polycarp, was born?
70 A.D.

How can someone not born yet be a Disciple?
Factual records have John writing in Revelations in 96 A.D. and was imprisoned by Domitian, who DID NOT REIGN until 82 A.D., some 12 years AFTER 70 A.D. and the Destruction.

But this Disciple of John proves they were still speaking in Tongues after the Apostles were gone.

I have an entire list from 90 A.D. - 250 A.D. of those we consider church fathers. Even the COUNCIL who put our Canon together Spoke in Tongues.

The BIBLE you read, was assembled by TONGUE SPEAKERS in the 4th Century!!




So tell me, when did PERFECT COME, that you believe in???

Spoke in Tongues.

modern day vernacular ........spoke in Languages

Yes they spoke in languages, just like most human beings who are not speech or language impaired.

 

[UnderGrace]

Factual records have John writing in Revelations in 96 A.D. and was imprisoned by Domitian, who DID NOT REIGN until 82 A.D., some 12 years AFTER 70 A.D. and the Destruction.

I think there is a problem with your "factual" records btw.

 

[obedienttogod]

modern day vernacular ........spoke in Languages

Yes they spoke in languages, just like most human beings who are not speech or language impaired.

You obviously just picked and chose because it specified in languages not recognized to men in the majority of their written accounts. I provided factual memoirs and a true Disciple of the Apostle John who claims what I posted of you is incorrect.

It's not like Speaking in Tongues is a requirement to be saved. It's only the evidence that some were saved, not that it's required to be saved.

And let's say those church fathers who encouraged speaking Tongues when they were alive and it's a basic miracle that some how Tongues remained active this entire time. But they are using what the Beloved Disciple/Apostle John instructed them to. And for them to continue doing it, means, John told them it was not going to CEASE UNTIL YESHUA (that which is PERFECT) returns. And since Yeshua had not returned (that which is PERFECT), the church Fathers and the Disciple of John, Polycarp (Gentile) continued Speaking in Tongues, teaching that Tongues had not CEASED, and why Tongues is still active.

So, if those got their instructions from the BELOVED JOHN, and those instructions included Tongues had not ceased, anyone making fun and denying it will be held accountable!!

Peter asked how long John would live, Yeshua REBUKED PETER, by saying, If I want John to tarry till the END he will. So clearly John, the Beloved Disciple John, ENCOURAGED POLYCARP AND HIS OTHER DISCIPLES TO CONTINUE SPEAKING IN TONGUES, or John's Disciples would not write about doing it in the year 107 A.D., 50 (FIFTY YEARS AFTER PENTECOST, 40 YEARS AFTER THE DEATHS OF 11 APOSTLES AND THE DESTRUCTION).

AND THEN, Polycarp instructed his own Disciples to continue Speaking in Tongues!!


In my opinion, and God is my JUDGE, that is evidence and proof Tongues had not ceased whether ANY OF YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!

Their VIEWS AND OPINIONS FROM APOSTLE JOHN IS THE OPPOSITE OF YOUR VIEWS!!

I know the Apostle John was a true man of God and following what he taught Polycarp is also for me.
But you in THIS THREAD, I don't know if you are of God since YOU DENY what John commanded his Disciples to carry on.
The fact you are against the Beloved John, makes you an ENEMY to what he taught, which is from God.
That then means, if you are against what John taught Polycarp, you are an enemy to God on the subject of TONGUES!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You obviously just picked and chose because it specified in languages not recognized to men in the majority of their written accounts. I provided factual memoirs and a true Disciple of the Apostle John who claims what I posted of you is incorrect.

It's not like Speaking in Tongues is a requirement to be saved. It's only the evidence that some were saved, not that it's required to be saved.

And let's say those church fathers who encouraged speaking Tongues when they were alive and it's a basic miracle that some how Tongues remained active this entire time. But they are using what the Beloved Disciple/Apostle John instructed them to. And for them to continue doing it, means, John told them it was not going to CEASE UNTIL YESHUA (that which is PERFECT) returns. And since Yeshua had not returned (that which is PERFECT), the church Fathers and the Disciple of John, Polycarp (Gentile) continued Speaking in Tongues, teaching that Tongues had not CEASED, and why Tongues is still active.

So, if those got their instructions from the BELOVED JOHN, and those instructions included Tongues had not ceased, anyone making fun and denying it will be held accountable!!

Peter asked how long John would live, Yeshua REBUKED PETER, by saying, If I want John to tarry till the END he will. So clearly John, the Beloved Disciple John, ENCOURAGED POLYCARP AND HIS OTHER DISCIPLES TO CONTINUE SPEAKING IN TONGUES, or John's Disciples would not write about doing it in the year 107 A.D., 50 (FIFTY YEARS AFTER PENTECOST, 40 YEARS AFTER THE DEATHS OF 11 APOSTLES AND THE DESTRUCTION).

AND THEN, Polycarp instructed his own disciples to continue Speaking in Tongues!!


In my opinion, and God is my JUDGE, that is evidence and proof Tongues had not ceased whether ANY OF YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!

Their VIEWS AND OPINIONS FROM APOSTLE JOHN IS THE OPPOSITE OF YOUR VIEWS!!

I know the Apostle John was a true man of God and following what he taught Polycarp is also for me.
But you in THIS THREAD, I don't know if you are of God since YOU DENY what John commanded his Disciples to carry on.
The fact you are against the Beloved John, makes you an ENEMY to what he taught, which is from God.
That then means, if you are against what John taught Polycarp, you are an enemy to God on the subject of TONGUES!!

Well the apostle john we have in scripture

The rest? External to scripture?

Not scripture (all you need to know)

Still waiting or one person to explain to me how you can test the spirit of a person speaking an unknown language when NO ONE available to interpret what was said, so they can TEST to see if it was really from God or not

Sorry. God told me so is not proof.

 

[obedienttogod]

Well the apostle john we have in scripture

The rest? External to scripture?

Not scripture (all you need to know)

Still waiting or one person to explain to me how you can test the spirit of a person speaking an unknown language when NO ONE available to interpret what was said, so they can TEST to see if it was really from God or not

Sorry. God told me so is not proof.

So, are you calling Polycarp a LIAR?
He claims he was doing what John instructed.

If he is telling the truth, it means you are calling the Apostle John a liar by proxy, which is then calling God a liar!!

How do you know Polycarp is lying?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, are you calling Polycarp a LIAR?
He claims he was doing what John instructed.

If he is telling the truth, it means you are calling the Apostle John a liar by proxy, which is then calling God a liar!!

How do you know Polycarp is lying?

I have looked

I do not see the name polycarp in scripture. And john never mentioned his name

So I am asking people to stick to what is trustworthy, Is this an issue?

 

[obedienttogod]

(1)
Both Ignatius and Polycarp were the disciples of John. In fact there is this great legend in church history that as Ignatius was John’s disciple, and Polycarp was John’s disciple, then Polycarp was also Ignatius’ disciple. Polycarp would go on to disciple Irenaeus. And Irenaeus would go on—now here’s a great name from the early church—he would go on to disciple Hippolytus. So there we have this great length through the first two centuries of the church’s life back to John.

Both men write about being Disciples of John and they write about Speaking in Tongues and the continuation of the Gifts from John.

(2)
Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John (the last surviving member of the twelve disciples), and other Church Fathers confirmed this, recording also that he was ordained by John as Bishop of Smyrna in Asia Minor (the city of Izmir in modern Turkey).

(3)
Polycarp of Smyrna holds a very special and perhaps even unique position in the history of the Christian church. He was personally taught by the apostle John and therefore is important to the continuity of beliefs from the time of Christ through the apostolic age and beyond.

This is how the CHURCH HISTORY has it DOCUMENTED:

Polycarp, was personally taught by the apostle John and therefore is important to the continuity of beliefs from the time of Christ through the apostolic age and beyond.

 

[obedienttogod]

I have looked

I do not see the name polycarp in scripture. And john never mentioned his name

So I am asking people to stick to what is trustworthy, Is this an issue?

That's OK, I am no one you should fear by not believing, that is between You and God!!
But since you claim to be of God and know Him, your stance makes it apparent that you find the connection between John and Polycarp and what Polcarp to claim is false:

I am glad you have made that clear!!