Calvinism And Predestination

[NayborBear]

I don't know why you were surprised when I said that that passage was taken totally out of context.

NayborBear started out by claiming that Matthew 9:38 meant this: Ask the Lord of the Harvest (by name/title) to Harvest you!

But that is not even the meaning of that passage, which is what I told him. Then he comes along and quotes from James just because both passages speak about a harvest! Once again James has nothing to do with the subject, neither does Matthew 9:38.

The subject was this (my comment): Nor for mature Christians who know Gospel truth and Bible truth. Scripture REFUTES Calvinism.

It is my belief that there are "Priests of God." "Priests of God, and of Jesus Christ." And "Priests of Jesus Christ."
And, from reading posts and replies of posts in BDF?
"That which came around?" "Comes around again!" (NOTE this "histrical loop" cycle!)
Romans 11
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Isaiah 28
7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

It's APOSTASY, boys! Around 3 to 4,000 years for Israel?
Just over 2,000 years since Jesus!
Although, the words and steps have changed much?
The song, HAS REMAINED THE SAME!
APOSTASY!

I dunno what to tell ya. I try to show ya, but won't/CAN'T MAKE ya see!

In these "works", if you will, of my postings in hammering the spirit of anti-christ? It is not so much these ones I have mentioned above, but for those who have "befallen" unto these, and in a continuing "work/s", be telling and showing? YOU ARE NOT ALONE!

Not works FOR salvation? WORKS for, and FROM "Election!"

Like I've stated. I can't make you see it!

But, can you see it?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Scripture confirms Calvinism.
Its just your poor understanding of them that makes you think they are refuted.

John chapter 3 is not rocket science. But it clearly refutes Calvinism, and also shows us why some are saved and others are not. And even a child can understand the words in this chapter.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But, can you see it?

More Scriptures taken out of context. How can anyone see anything when such is the case?

 

[GHClarkII]

No need really. Just read John chapter 3 daily, and discover through the simple and powerful words of Christ that Calvinism is a BOGUS GOSPEL.

John 3 teaches calvinism. If you read it daily and cannot see that, then you don't know the gospel.

 

[GHClarkII]

I actually started this thread for Melach. I really don't have a dog in this fight atm.

I myself believe God has predestined to save anyone who will trust in Jesus for salvation, and of course, predestined to damn those who refuse His pardon

That isn't a biblical view of predestinarian. In the new testament God doesn't foreknow things or details, He foreknows people. It has the same connotation of the Hebrew word yada which means to love. God predestines individual persons, according to His own good pleasure. Eph 2 man. It's right there on the page. God doesn't predestine things, or plans, or groups. It's always individuals.

 

[GHClarkII]

i understand yes but these were God's chosen people israel to who He sent those prophets telling them repent! return from idolatry! but why if they cant?

Read eph 1,2, and 3. All of the chapters. Next John 3, 6, 8, and 17. Lastly Romans 8 and 9. These are whole chapters in context. They teach God's total sovereignty in salvation. It's clear from these passages that man cannot repent, he is simply too evil. We naturally love our sin and would never choose God. Not because we lack an ability, but because we are evil. However some people, for the goodness of His grace to be known, He regenerates and changes into God lovers. We are given the gift of faith, and persevere to the end. Those who teach that man can choose God of his own will, or that faith is something we have to do to he saved, or that we can lose our salvation, have clearly never read the Bible. I say that unapologetically. Every person ive seen comment here has twisted the scriptures to suit their pet traditions. Scripture is clear on this issue.

 

[John146]

That isn't a biblical view of predestinarian. In the new testament God doesn't foreknow things or details, He foreknows people. It has the same connotation of the Hebrew word yada which means to love. God predestines individual persons, according to His own good pleasure. Eph 2 man. It's right there on the page. God doesn't predestine things, or plans, or groups. It's always individuals.

When does God know you?

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

 

[Melach]

Read eph 1,2, and 3. All of the chapters. Next John 3, 6, 8, and 17. Lastly Romans 8 and 9. These are whole chapters in context. They teach God's total sovereignty in salvation. It's clear from these passages that man cannot repent, he is simply too evil. We naturally love our sin and would never choose God. Not because we lack an ability, but because we are evil. However some people, for the goodness of His grace to be known, He regenerates and changes into God lovers. We are given the gift of faith, and persevere to the end. Those who teach that man can choose God of his own will, or that faith is something we have to do to he saved, or that we can lose our salvation, have clearly never read the Bible. I say that unapologetically. Every person ive seen comment here has twisted the scriptures to suit their pet traditions. Scripture is clear on this issue.

thanks. i have read those. romans 9 is a strong calvinist chapter.

but john 3? it says whosoever believes.

i agree that men love their sin, and are evil. but i for example always knew i was evil and sinful, nobody had to tell me. and i wasnt born saved i dont think. why did i change? was i regenerated? i dont know. but i know that in my human spirit i just got tired of being miserable and unhappy. sin doesnt make anyone happy long term, its only a short pleasure. kind of like getting drunk, you feel good but sooner than you know its next day and it wasnt worth it, fun for a few hours and whole day ruined maybe even throw up. thats sin

if those chapters were the only ones in the bible we would all be calvinists. but there are so many times God sends prophets saying perhaps they repent, repent,turn, seek me while i can be found. why does God say any of that if the reason people wont and cant repent is because of total depravity and only thing can upset that is irresistable grace? if God wants them to repent, just give them irresistable grace, instead of sending useless repentance messages to people who cant/wont do it until God gives irresistable grace.

do you also see my view? can some calvinist explain it please? it looks like games being played instead of genuine repentance call as i believe it is

 

[Magenta]

That isn't a biblical view of predestinarian. In the new testament God doesn't foreknow things or details, He foreknows people. It has the same connotation of the Hebrew word yada which means to love. God predestines individual persons, according to His own good pleasure. Eph 2 man. It's right there on the page. God doesn't predestine things, or plans, or groups. It's always individuals.

Hebrews 4:13~ Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to Whom we must give account.

Matthew 21:1-3 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”

Those look like details to me

 

[GHClarkII]

When does God know you?

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

We are talking about the foreknowledge of God. Best to find a passage pertaining to that subject then to rip this one from it's context and twist it to say something it clearly isnt. Try Romans 8:28-30

 

[GHClarkII]

thanks. i have read those. romans 9 is a strong calvinist chapter.

but john 3? it says whosoever believes.

i agree that men love their sin, and are evil. but i for example always knew i was evil and sinful, nobody had to tell me. and i wasnt born saved i dont think. why did i change? was i regenerated? i dont know. but i know that in my human spirit i just got tired of being miserable and unhappy. sin doesnt make anyone happy long term, its only a short pleasure. kind of like getting drunk, you feel good but sooner than you know its next day and it wasnt worth it, fun for a few hours and whole day ruined maybe even throw up. thats sin

if those chapters were the only ones in the bible we would all be calvinists. but there are so many times God sends prophets saying perhaps they repent, repent,turn, seek me while i can be found. why does God say any of that if the reason people wont and cant repent is because of total depravity and only thing can upset that is irresistable grace? if God wants them to repent, just give them irresistable grace, instead of sending useless repentance messages to people who cant/wont do it until God gives irresistable grace.

do you also see my view? can some calvinist explain it please? it looks like games being played instead of genuine repentance call as i believe it is

It is the righteous judgement of God. Read Romans man, the whole book. Paul tells us often that God hardens people in their sin. He sends them prophets to condemn them. The purpose is so that when they reject the prophet, God will judge them and display His justice. Read isaiah 6-9. God displays his glory, sends Isaiah to preach, and then tells him point blank that He will stop their ears so they will not be saved from the coming destruction. It's God's words, not ours.

You see, you see these passages that call people to repent and these passages that tell us God ordains everything and see a dicotomy. God wants you to see His glory. His commands are law, they are prescriptive. His decree is only His to know. We don't act based on His decree, we don't know it. But He tells us plainly it is there.

 

[GHClarkII]

Hebrews 4:13~ Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to Whom we must give account.

Matthew 21:1-3 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”

Those look like details to me

Perhaps I didn't say that so well. Of course God foreknows details. He knows everything. My point was that when the Bible speaks of predestination and foreknowledge the objects are always persons, not events. It isn't the details, or our faith, or our works that God foreknows, it is us. It is a way of saying that He loves those whom He has chosen. He has always loved us with an everlasting love.
Look up proginosko in the new testament. It's object is always a person, as in knowing the person.nit is even used to say good foreknew Christ. It is a personal love. Saying God predestines to do such and such if we do such and such is unbiblical. The scriptures never describe it that way. They say He predestines those whom He foreknew (or loved in other words), not that He predestines plans or events or acts. Obviously He does control everything, and by that metric we know He predestines events and details in His decree. But these two words are ALWAYS used EXCLUSIVELY of persons. The elect. Read my suggested chapter list and you'll see what I mean.

 

[GHClarkII]

thanks. i have read those. romans 9 is a strong calvinist chapter.

but john 3? it says whosoever believes.

i agree that men love their sin, and are evil. but i for example always knew i was evil and sinful, nobody had to tell me. and i wasnt born saved i dont think. why did i change? was i regenerated? i dont know. but i know that in my human spirit i just got tired of being miserable and unhappy. sin doesnt make anyone happy long term, its only a short pleasure. kind of like getting drunk, you feel good but sooner than you know its next day and it wasnt worth it, fun for a few hours and whole day ruined maybe even throw up. thats sin

if those chapters were the only ones in the bible we would all be calvinists. but there are so many times God sends prophets saying perhaps they repent, repent,turn, seek me while i can be found. why does God say any of that if the reason people wont and cant repent is because of total depravity and only thing can upset that is irresistable grace? if God wants them to repent, just give them irresistable grace, instead of sending useless repentance messages to people who cant/wont do it until God gives irresistable grace.

do you also see my view? can some calvinist explain it please? it looks like games being played instead of genuine repentance call as i believe it is

Also, John 3 does NOT say whosoever in the open ended sense. That is just the spin our use of the English word gives it. It is actually a single Greek word translated into a phrase "whosoever believes". It is better translated " the believing ones". In John 3 Jesus gives us 2 classes of people. Believers and non-believers. One he says he came because God loves them and he is here to save them, the other is condemned already. Elect and reprobate. It honestly doesn't get more calvinistic than that. Read the entire chapter again.

 

[GHClarkII]

John chapter 3 is not rocket science. But it clearly refutes Calvinism, and also shows us why some are saved and others are not. And even a child can understand the words in this chapter.

You say that as you completely misunderstand it. You are not a good exegete. Please don't muddy this thread anymore. The poster asked calvinist' to answer and you are not one. You're not even a skilled opponent. Please leave this thread to those who can exegete properly and further this discussion. Thank you.

 

[Melach]

It is the righteous judgement of God. Read Romans man, the whole book. Paul tells us often that God hardens people in their sin. He sends them prophets to condemn them. The purpose is so that when they reject the prophet, God will judge them and display His justice. Read isaiah 6-9. God displays his glory, sends Isaiah to preach, and then tells him point blank that He will stop their ears so they will not be saved from the coming destruction. It's God's words, not ours.

You see, you see these passages that call people to repent and these passages that tell us God ordains everything and see a dicotomy. God wants you to see His glory. His commands are law, they are prescriptive. His decree is only His to know. We don't act based on His decree, we don't know it. But He tells us plainly it is there.

thanks this was a great response, i'll read through those chapters tomorrow i will go to sleep now and check back here tomorow. i understand it better now. can you adress one particular isaiah text?

isaiah 5:4 why did God expect good fruit to come?

Isaiah 5:4 King James Version (KJV)
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

 

[GHClarkII]

thanks this was a great response, i'll read through those chapters tomorrow i will go to sleep now and check back here tomorow. i understand it better now. can you adress one particular isaiah text?

isaiah 5:4 why did God expect good fruit to come?

Isaiah 5:4 King James Version (KJV)
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

Great question man. It is a rhetorical question to the Israelites. The point he is making is that He gave them everything they could ever need to be a godly people and yet they weren't. So He will do to them what any vineyard owner would, He'll destroy it and start over. God knows what the Israelites will do, He makes that clear by the same prophet only a few chapters later. These are simply rhetorical devices used to point out our wickedness. The point He consistently makes is that no matter how many Laws He gives or blessings He rains down, we just keep barring thorns instead of fruit.

 

[UnderGrace]

I've said before that the theology of Calvin is not for the new or baby Christian.

I sincerely hope that there are none reading any of our arguments as they will make no sense but only serve to confuse.

Before we are given Knowledge we must think as the Arminian that we CAN make good decisions and WE CAN make God act and react to us and give us Salvation. We must try as hard as we can with all the goodness and strength that we possess so that we can know without a doubt that our way is FUTILITY.

Those who demand that Calvinism is false have not found out this most essential truth. Or if they think they have they excuse it somehow thinking that their best try is good enough....

Funny, that was the theology of my immaturity and being a baby Christian.

A complete system ....easy peasy.

WE CAN make God act and react to us and give us Salvation.

Now this is an interesting line.

If Armenians think they can make God "act" then on the other side Calvin makes God so preoccupied with sovereignty, that God does not even respond to faith/belief but has to provide the faith/belief so that people can be saved.

I am convinced that Calvin was a severe and judgemental man who projected his shortcomings onto God

 

[Nehemiah6]

You say that as you completely misunderstand it. You are not a good exegete. Please don't muddy this thread anymore. The poster asked calvinist' to answer and you are not one. You're not even a skilled opponent. Please leave this thread to those who can exegete properly and further this discussion. Thank you.

Since you know little or nothing about me, your comments are out of line. The fact is that no one needs to be a theologian to understand the words of Christ in John 3 or many other plain Scriptures that TOTALLY REFUTE Calvinism. However, Calvinists wrest the Scriptures to make them mean what they want them to mean, rather than what they say. In fact all their theology is built on false premises.

 

[obedienttogod]

If Armenians think they can make God "act"

This has nothing against or for your views, or any view in this thread, because it is a stupid argument, in my opinion.

I quoted this portion, and it has nothing to do with Armenians. It has to do with "making God Act."

Everything is already in a set order, that is the plan of God. But we have been instructed, the very Act of Faith, can change the Act of God and what He was intending to do.

***If someone is going to die and then dies, it was according to God's plan. But, had someone with actual and literal faith intercede on behalf of the person in the process of dying, that person would have continued to live and eventually became better. Faith, causes God to move or Act, when it was not what God had originally planned.***

If this happens to put Armenian vs Calvin in a different view because the true Act of Faith, then so be it. But this instruction on Faith and its effect/cause/reaction by God, was given to us by God in the flesh!!

So it is God Himself, who is instructing us, how to change His mind and original plan!!

You cannot beat that Guarantee at all!!

 

[KelbyofGod]

People choose where they go. But let us say God intervenes in a particular way but the outcome is
the same, what is the point of intervention. From Gods perspective, most will choose their way and
refuse any other.

What I am declaring is God does what can be done. He is not unfairly dooming people and on a whim
choosing others, His heart is in saving all, but He can only achieve what is possible. There is no other choice
involved. Our failure is in seeing how lost the world truly is, and how simply people could find God.

Listen to God.

15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
Matt 13

I have spoken to thousands of people and few would regard Jesus as more than a nice moralist.
My parents spent their whole lives in church, yet the words seemed to never get further than a
nice story. I could give you many reasons why, but mainly because they never understood themselves
as sinners in need of love and healing, just as people doing religion, and something needed to happen.

Look at Israel. And I mean really look at them coming out of Egypt. God the creator delivered them out
of the hand of the Pharoah, parted the red sea, a pillar of smoke by day and a pillar smoke by night, led
them forward. They were given the law by which to walk in Gods blessing. But no, this was not enough,
so at the first moment, lets party, have a golden calf, and let rip.

Man without a heart change is just a worldly person waiting to enjoy themselves when no one is looking.
Do you think people such as these will enter heaven, or are really interested in eternal, emotional and
spiritual issues? Even in churches with the redeemed or here on this forum, walking like Jesus is no
simple issue or principle. Yet we are the redeemed, we have decades of walking with Jesus.

The fact Jesus says some find Him truly is the biggest miracle of all.

Very well written!

Love in Jesus,
Kelby