Calvinism And Predestination
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Yes it would. That is why Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach to the lost (not eternally, but from a lack of full knowledge of the gospel) sheep ( regenerated children of God) in the house of Israel (actually it is the house of Jacob) because God changed Jacob's name to be called no more Jacob but to be called Israel. Jacob is representative of God's elect. A lot of times in the scriptures having reference to Israel, it is actually referencing Jacob, or the elect. The apostles were never instructed to preach to anyone other than God's elect. The good news of the gospel is the fact that Jesus has paid for all of the sins of the elect.
I am so very sorry budman. You asked for Calvinists to answer and after reading all those answers, not one person is a Calvinist. I will answer for you, and thanks for asking.
Yes. God created out of the same mass of humanity one group for honor and one for dishonor. We fell corporately in Adam, but He has chosen to save an elect people by His grace. Some are regenerated and called to faith in Christ. They will be saved from their sins. The rest are left in their evil and will be judged. Read Romans 9, it should help answer your question better.
The Bible teaches what we call calvinism from cover to cover. You can find it all over the place. God bless
Yes. God created out of the same mass of humanity one group for honor and one for dishonor. We fell corporately in Adam, but He has chosen to save an elect people by His grace. Some are regenerated and called to faith in Christ. They will be saved from their sins. The rest are left in their evil and will be judged. Read Romans 9, it should help answer your question better.
The Bible teaches what we call calvinism from cover to cover. You can find it all over the place. God bless
The natural man will never believe in spiritual things that he cannot discern (1 Cor 2:14). God, by his foreknowledge, saw that no one would seek him, no, not one (Psalms 53:2-3) This is what he had to choose from, so he choose a people out of those that would not seek him and had Jesus to die for all of their sins so he would have a people to praise and worship him.
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Here's how I understand that (in your reference to "John 6"):
--John 6:37 involves two parts (one part is "all that [neuter]" [which is not "persons"], and the other part is "he/him [who]" [that is, "persons"])
--John 6:39 ("all that" [which is not "persons"]) distinct from John 6:40 ("everyone/all who [masculine]" [persons])
The "that" which He will "raise up AT/IN the last day" is all of His "kingdom/throne/sceptre/judgment/governance [earthly-MK]" things.
The "who" are those persons who have trusted Him for salvation [here I include OT saints, as shown in Matt8:11].
Are you thinking of other verses?
--John 6:37 involves two parts (one part is "all that [neuter]" [which is not "persons"], and the other part is "he/him [who]" [that is, "persons"])
--John 6:39 ("all that" [which is not "persons"]) distinct from John 6:40 ("everyone/all who [masculine]" [persons])
The "that" which He will "raise up AT/IN the last day" is all of His "kingdom/throne/sceptre/judgment/governance [earthly-MK]" things.
The "who" are those persons who have trusted Him for salvation [here I include OT saints, as shown in Matt8:11].
Are you thinking of other verses?
TheDivineWatermark said:
^ I disagree that they were already "regenerated" ^ [this comment was supposed to go along with the end of my last post
]
^ I disagree that they were already "regenerated" ^ [this comment was supposed to go along with the end of my last post
]
Secondly, I believe I have gone over this with you before, that 1Cor3:1 is in the same context as this 1Cor2:14 passage, where Paul is telling BELIEVERS (the "already-saved") that he could not yet speak unto them "as spiritual" but "as unto carnal" and adds, "as unto babes in Christ"... which means they were not yet ready for that which 1Cor2 references (where v.6 had just said "we speak wisdom among them which are the teleiois / mature" and v. 10 speaks of [what was revealed unto them/the apostles/NT-prophets] "the deep things of God" and v.12 "that we might know the things freely given to us of God" and v.16b "but we have the mind of Christ" [these are things we now have recorded in the NT epistles...]).
So if these "believers" in 3:1 are indeed SAVED ["IN Christ"] (but "are yet carnal" 3:3), how did they come to faith??
The thing about the heart of stone, it never wants to change and believe in spiritual things that it cannot discern. (1 Cor 2:14). Man does not change his heart God changes his heart. The process is called regeneration, being born again, changed from natural to spiritual. Ezek 11:19 - And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and I will give them an heart of flesh;
I think I've mentioned this to you before (although it may have been another poster, sometimes a few of you seem to run all together in my thinking, my apologies for that )... I believe you are reading "Ephesians 2:5" out of its context, for the word there is "synezōopoiēsen [G4806]" (and note the "syn - G4862" word within it)... this means that whatever this word means here, that it was accomplished "TOGETHER WITH" Christ... and He Himself had NO NEED to be "regenerated" in the sense you are taking this to mean, in THIS context. IOW, this is speaking of our identification with Him, in what He accomplished there (in His own Person), and not the "regeneration" you are referring to. This is the context of Ephesians 2.
[This happened on the day of His resurrection/ON Firstfruit, in 32ad]
)... I believe you are reading "Ephesians 2:5" out of its context, for the word there is "synezōopoiēsen [G4806]" (and note the "syn - G4862" word within it)... this means that whatever this word means here, that it was accomplished "TOGETHER WITH" Christ... and He Himself had NO NEED to be "regenerated" in the sense you are taking this to mean, in THIS context. IOW, this is speaking of our identification with Him, in what He accomplished there (in His own Person), and not the "regeneration" you are referring to. This is the context of Ephesians 2. [This happened on the day of His resurrection/ON Firstfruit, in 32ad]
I think I've mentioned this to you before (although it may have been another poster, sometimes a few of you seem to run all together in my thinking, my apologies for that )... I believe you are reading "Ephesians 2:5" out of its context, for the word there is "synezōopoiēsen [G4806]" (and note the "syn - G4862" word within it)... this means that whatever this word means here, that it was accomplished "TOGETHER WITH" Christ... and He Himself had NO NEED to be "regenerated" in the sense you are taking this to mean, in THIS context. IOW, this is speaking of our identification with Him, in what He accomplished there (in His own Person), and not the "regeneration" you are referring to. This is the context of Ephesians 2.
[This happened on the day of His resurrection/ON Firstfruit, in 32ad]
)... I believe you are reading "Ephesians 2:5" out of its context, for the word there is "synezōopoiēsen [G4806]" (and note the "syn - G4862" word within it)... this means that whatever this word means here, that it was accomplished "TOGETHER WITH" Christ... and He Himself had NO NEED to be "regenerated" in the sense you are taking this to mean, in THIS context. IOW, this is speaking of our identification with Him, in what He accomplished there (in His own Person), and not the "regeneration" you are referring to. This is the context of Ephesians 2.[This happened on the day of His resurrection/ON Firstfruit, in 32ad]
I say GOD knows every decision that every man will make before he cast down the world in creation.......and he is under NO obligation to bend to the will of man.....every scripture written that deals with the destiny of each and every man is based upon this particular foreknowledge.....
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cc convinces me of one thing, a hard heart knows nothing.
Children are born wide eyed and open, wanting to learn and discover the details.
Something quite radical happens between this and being 25.
If by 25 one has locked out hope and love, nothing will move you and probably one
will not survive much longer.
Once you have a person who is open to change and willing to listen, there is hope.
So when we talk of predestination, some become predestined to judgement early on,
because their hearts go cold. Jesus talked about this
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matt 24
So it is a wonder anyone listens to God and repents, even though this is the path to life.
Gods predestination is not the guiding factor, it is mans hardness of heart.
Children are born wide eyed and open, wanting to learn and discover the details.
Something quite radical happens between this and being 25.
If by 25 one has locked out hope and love, nothing will move you and probably one
will not survive much longer.
Once you have a person who is open to change and willing to listen, there is hope.
So when we talk of predestination, some become predestined to judgement early on,
because their hearts go cold. Jesus talked about this
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matt 24
So it is a wonder anyone listens to God and repents, even though this is the path to life.
Gods predestination is not the guiding factor, it is mans hardness of heart.
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i think it looks like sometimes God knows the future, when He tells things that happen beforehand.
but sometimes He doesnt look like He knows because it says for example:
"perhaps they repent"
"i sought for a man and found none"
"what could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? why, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?"
so in some cases God knows the future, in some cases He doesnt. why does it change like that in the bible? i found pastor Piper explain that its just a figure of speech kind of, God speaks in human language to humans, but im not sure how i feel about that answer...
there is also that incident where that man asks God to increase His life span. showing that God can change His plans on the fly if people do pray and change. but maybe that prayer of the man was also predestinated? i wish we had calvinist here to answer us
but sometimes He doesnt look like He knows because it says for example:
"perhaps they repent"
"i sought for a man and found none"
"what could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? why, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?"
so in some cases God knows the future, in some cases He doesnt. why does it change like that in the bible? i found pastor Piper explain that its just a figure of speech kind of, God speaks in human language to humans, but im not sure how i feel about that answer...
there is also that incident where that man asks God to increase His life span. showing that God can change His plans on the fly if people do pray and change. but maybe that prayer of the man was also predestinated? i wish we had calvinist here to answer us
Hi Melach,
You raise a good point. My thinking has gone like this. Why does God want to engage with us?
Because the nature of love is this engagement and the joy that comes from giving and receiving.
Now from Gods perspective you could only engage with those who have a good outcome. But
that would mean you did not equally love and desire engagement with all. And the message is
engagement and openness are everything, sharing the moment, being in the present, enjoying
and blessing while it is today. So this is His language, and His chosen way of being.
It is meaningful when one is slandered or attacked. Is there value in responding in kind?
To a degree but mainly no. Because such things do not change our hearts, and most hate what
our hearts testify to, and do not believe it is true and want to test us, because they have been
betrayed so many times in the past. So Gods words reflect His heart, searching and desiring to
find those who bless and serve and listen wherever He is working, Amen, Thank you Jesus.
You raise a good point. My thinking has gone like this. Why does God want to engage with us?
Because the nature of love is this engagement and the joy that comes from giving and receiving.
Now from Gods perspective you could only engage with those who have a good outcome. But
that would mean you did not equally love and desire engagement with all. And the message is
engagement and openness are everything, sharing the moment, being in the present, enjoying
and blessing while it is today. So this is His language, and His chosen way of being.
It is meaningful when one is slandered or attacked. Is there value in responding in kind?
To a degree but mainly no. Because such things do not change our hearts, and most hate what
our hearts testify to, and do not believe it is true and want to test us, because they have been
betrayed so many times in the past. So Gods words reflect His heart, searching and desiring to
find those who bless and serve and listen wherever He is working, Amen, Thank you Jesus.