Church boards

[Nehemiah6]

And are there church boards in the Bible?

Let's stick with what is in the Bible. There is such as thing as "the presbytery" and that simply means the elders (presbyters) over the local church. Not a "board" (which is a misnomer, since boards belong to business corporations).

Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. (1 Tim 4:14)

These were the shepherds (pastors) and overseers of the local churches responsible for the spiritual well-being of the flock. They were required to meet certain qualifications.

Each church was under a separate presbytery with a plurality of elders. There was no higher presbytery outside the local church (as is found today among Presbyterians and denominations).

There was no such thing as a single pastor or single bishop (presbyter) in the New Testament, since this was a major spiritual responsibility which needed several men (no women) with various spiritual gifts.

Alongside the elders were the deacons (servants of the church). Again a plurality and again only men (no deaconesses). Again, they were required to meet certain qualifications. Their responsibility was the material and physical well-being of the flock. They were accountable to the apostles (at that time) and the elders.

Chances are you will not find the New Testament pattern in most evangelical and fundamental churches, let alone the mainline denominations with clerical hierarchies.

 

[Lanolin]

Let's stick with what is in the Bible. There is such as thing as "the presbytery" and that simply means the elders (presbyters) over the local church. Not a "board" (which is a misnomer, since boards belong to business corporations).

Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. (1 Tim 4:14)

These were the shepherds (pastors) and overseers of the local churches responsible for the spiritual well-being of the flock. They were required to meet certain qualifications.

Each church was under a separate presbytery with a plurality of elders. There was no higher presbytery outside the local church (as is found today among Presbyterians and denominations).

There was no such thing as a single pastor or single bishop (presbyter) in the New Testament, since this was a major spiritual responsibility which needed several men (no women) with various spiritual gifts.

Alongside the elders were the deacons (servants of the church). Again a plurality and again only men (no deaconesses). Again, they were required to meet certain qualifications. Their responsibility was the material and physical well-being of the flock. They were accountable to the apostles (at that time) and the elders.

Chances are you will not find the New Testament pattern in most evangelical and fundamental churches, let alone the mainline denominations with clerical hierarchies.

Well the church I go to is nominally presbyterian. And they have elders but dont seem to have deacons. There is one pastor. They call one board 'board of managers' and then theres something called session.
Females can be elders. But the pastor is male.

Ive been part of a baptist and their one is abit more confusing. They have two pastors an elder and a junior. The elders are mostly male. Is it because only males can make decisions? Or carry the responsibitlty?

Females tend to do all the work of the church and many of the menial jobs. They arent paid unless its cleaning or secretary work. I dont think they are allowed to make any decisions. Or at least not the so called improtant ones. This one had no deacons as well. I think many churches have done away with deacons and bishops. Although actually the youth pastor is sometimes female.

I havent been part of any church thats had a female pastor or an official one but have visited a few, I dont know if female leadership is all that different, Ive had female bosses in my secular jobs. Most bosses are the same regardless of gender I wouldnt say one is better than the other and they can be equally tryannical lol.

 

[Lanolin]

Btw not saying the pastor is like a boss. He or she shouldnt be, if they are actually being a good shepherd they would be in a more nurturing role feeding the sheep, leading them, herding them not actually bossing them around.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Well the church I go to is nominally presbyterian. And they have elders but dont seem to have deacons. There is one pastor. They call one board 'board of managers' and then theres something called session. Females can be elders. But the pastor is male.

As you can see they have departed from the New Testament pattern, and imposed their own ideas on how a church should function. This is partly why churches are going downhill.

 

[Lanolin]

As you can see they have departed from the New Testament pattern, and imposed their own ideas on how a church should function. This is partly why churches are going downhill.

Is it that the elders are nominated and everyone else is a deacon. Or what. How many elders are there meant to be, in this one theres three. But then theres the church board some elders are on that and some that arent elders are on it. Am confused.
They cant seem to make any decisions unless they all meet and all agree. Which I can sort of understand except it takes so long for them to decide on anything that needs a quick decision. And you have to put proposals in writing to them which sometimes they dont even look at or respond to.

 

[Lanolin]

Say you want to do things that will reach out to people, its part of your mission outreach but every single thing has to be run by some board that meets once a month to say you can or cant do it. But if you dont tell them you get in trouble if you end up doing it. Even if its a good outcome.

 

[Lanolin]

Ok from my observation it just all seems to come down to $$.
The church board wont do certain things because they fear it will cost them something.

Ok so you want to do missions and spend so much on a certain ministry. The church board will try and stop you from spending the full amount allocated. You will get the job done half way and then they tell you to stop and dont spend anymore even though theyve initially said you can go and do it. Then they will use that money for something else or just sit on it forever. Even though you could spent it all on continuing that ministry, they just want you to do the bare minimum. And then tick the box.

But Jesus has said count the cost before you start, and you have but then You get half way and the church board steps in and freezes all the funds so your job is half done.

Has anyone experienced this?

 

[Lanolin]

Just coming back to this...has anyone experienced difficulties with church boards and how do you work through that.
Or have you been on a board yourself. Did you get picked or what.

I mean what is the concept of a church board anyway and how did Jesus work through that, were his 12 apostles considered his church board.

I still dont really understand them. How old do you need to be to be an 'elder'?
Is it like a council or a committee. Can anything really get done by comittee?

 

[Dino246]

Just coming back to this...has anyone experienced difficulties with church boards and how do you work through that.
Or have you been on a board yourself. Did you get picked or what.

I mean what is the concept of a church board anyway and how did Jesus work through that, were his 12 apostles considered his church board.

I still dont really understand them. How old do you need to be to be an 'elder'?
Is it like a council or a committee. Can anything really get done by comittee?

I haven't been on a church board, but I have had problems with them; they can tend to be slower than molasses in January (well, July, for those in the Southern hemisphere). Generally I have respected their decisions, though I have never felt shy about challenging them when I think they're wrong.

Again, going by what I've seen, board members/elders are nominated, prayed about, grilled (gently) regarding their position on various issues, and subjected to a vote of affirmation by church members. I haven't attended a church that had a formal minimum age for board membership.

The apostles were not a church board in any sense. They were there to learn and follow Jesus' direction, and had no say in what He did.

Back to your question on the Carver model, which I just saw now, I'll provide an illustration from my present congregation (the details are fuzzy as this is third-hand). About 20 years ago, before I attended there, it had a board of elders and a pastor. The board made nearly every decision by committee... even down to the smallest things. At one meeting, the pastor said that if he were a business owner, and he needed a part for a lawnmower, he would go to the hardware store, buy the part, and fix the mower. He explained to them that at the church, he needed to bring the situation to the board, where they would decide whether the mower needed fixing, whether to fix it, when to fix it, how to fix it, and how much could be spent on the part needed (usually less than what it cost!). The pastor was constantly hamstrung by protocol. They caught on right away and worked to change things.

The Carver model basically sets up parameters around the role of the board and that of the primary leader (pastor, in this case). The board is responsible for legal matters (accounting, licences, property taxes, filing papers, etc.) and for major expenditures. The pastor is responsible for other staffing, programs, and, within an established budget, day-to-day financial decisions. For us it has worked very well. We're now making some adjustments to our model to be more effective in our ministry.

 

[Lanolin]

Yea the lawnmower thing.
Well at our church the lawnmower guy, who does not attend our church, mowed over the shrubs i planted for the church. I was devastated. And i thought those shrubs were quite obviously planted, I even put rocks next to them, they arent weeds or grass.

Well this church board cant even seem to make a desision over anything till its too late, like say I want to have an event at the church, they cant even say yes or no about it till they have met and I give them a detailed business case About it. By the time they get round to discussing it, its months later.

 

[Dino246]

Yea the lawnmower thing.
Well at our church the lawnmower guy, who does not attend our church, mowed over the shrubs i planted for the church. I was devastated. And i thought those shrubs were quite obviously planted, I even put rocks next to them, they arent weeds or grass.

Well this church board cant even seem to make a desision over anything till its too late, like say I want to have an event at the church, they cant even say yes or no about it till they have met and I give them a detailed business case About it. By the time they get round to discussing it, its months later.

That sounds like the first church I attended. They need a reset.

 

[Lanolin]

I cant find any books, about the 'carver model' in the public library is there anything online thats easy to read about it and not full of business jargon?

And what would be the limit of expenditure. Say you have a budget of $500 but youre not going to spend the total all at once its going to be on lots of small items that are anything from $2 to $40 each. Would that model require every single receipt to be recorded and photcopied 3 times.

 

[Dino246]

I cant find any books, about the 'carver model' in the public library is there anything online thats easy to read about it and not full of business jargon?

And what would be the limit of expenditure. Say you have a budget of $500 but youre not going to spend the total all at once its going to be on lots of small items that are anything from $2 to $40 each. Would that model require every single receipt to be recorded and photcopied 3 times.

Here's a link for the Carver model... http://www.carvergovernance.com/model.htm

As to expenditures, that's entirely a local decision. I believe our "office supplies" budget is something around $2000. Receipts must be kept, but I don't know the details beyond that. The key is not the numbers themselves, but the trust. Does the board trust the person or people making such decisions to do so properly? If not, then the board members should do all that kind of work themselves (and will quickly realize the need to extend trust!). Accountability needs a framework. If I had to photocopy every single receipt three times, I would throw the entire responsibility back at the board and say, "I'm a volunteer; I'm not doing this.". There is accountability, and then there is micromanagement.

 

[mar09]

Yea the lawnmower thing.
Well at our church the lawnmower guy, who does not attend our church, mowed over the shrubs i planted for the church. I was devastated. And i thought those shrubs were quite obviously planted, I even put rocks next to them, they arent weeds or grass.

Well this church board cant even seem to make a desision over anything till its too late, like say I want to have an event at the church, they cant even say yes or no about it till they have met and I give them a detailed business case About it. By the time they get round to discussing it, its months later.

Ah how sad is that. If some1 did that to my plants, i'd be dvastated! Perhaps there could be a sign, and of course instructions to the mower. Many ppl may not have bn introduced to these beauties of God's creation and cannot dstinguish plants fr weeds. I mean theyre all plants but some ppl were not taught that others are more special n think theyre all the same☹ .

our church has its annual planning, where plans n projects are discussed n evaluated like renovations, missions, maj.purchases. Sometimes it does seem slow wen we see somethng good, but the board doesnt. One time the women had some ideas to help the less abled members earn some, but twas disapproved, not being aligned to the church vision n mission, i heard... What can we do? Pray again.

anyway, i do know pulpit leaders are still men, and evn reading of the Word done by men. I only wonder the opportunities left for women to serve, n to learn/train speaking (not meant teaching) bef. the congregation too, wen many cant even stand to give announcement..

 

[Lanolin]

From observation it seems if the church dont allow women to speak or teach then the only opportunities left to serve for women seems to be the morning tea.
Ive been to some churches where its self-service you are free to make your own.

I was like, wow thats a novel idea everyone bring their own cup and fill as much as they like. Then there doesnt need to be anyone waiting on everyone else with a mountain of dishes at the end.

Not that theres anything wrong with a cup of tea, it can be very refreshing. I just dont understand some things in some churches like, say one wants to put up a scripture on the wall or a pot plant or something. Or put a book in the library. It has to go to a committee cos they dont trust anyone to just give anything to the church. We want to put a new seat here so people can sit down while reading some books. No it has to go to a comittee and someone else has to decide or approve of that. Nobody can just give anything.

Someone wants to paint the walls. And they offering their time and labour free to do it. No the comittee has to decide what colour its going to be and it all has to be approved.

Sometimes I think its cos the leader gets into a tizzy they didnt think of it first. Yet theres no church board or comittee that says we want you to speak only on x in your sermons and sing only these types of hymns.

Why micromanaging oversight for facilities and yet free for all in other things...? Does not the church board let the holy spirit lead in all matters or is it just set up so that the church can be audited like a business.

Surely if the holy spirit knew that anisa and saphirra lied to the apostles over their giving to the church and struck them both dead surely there doesnt need to be a comittee or church board counting every bean. I mean wasnt Judas the treasurer and he was stealing anyway...and Jesus knew about it.

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

Just coming back to this...has anyone experienced difficulties with church boards and how do you work through that.

Church boards are essentially the result of the church seceding its authority to the government. Governments give legal entities certain privileges, in order to control them (e.g. limited liability, so the church can get sued, but not so much individuals in the leadership). In order to maintain a legal entity, the government mandates it must follow certain rules. One of these is usually the constitution of a Board, and the monthly meeting of this Board.

An unconstituted church has a lot more freedom (it doesn't need to follow most of the government rules, as it has not been constituted/registered), but it is a lot easier for individuals within the church (particularly leaders, owners of property etc.) to be sued, the church may not be granted tax concessions, etc.

Although Boards are not necessarily evil, I see them as a way the devil is slowly working to undermine the work of the gospel, and bring churches under his control. As your friend indicated, a lot of a Board's time is spent dealing with how to comply with government bureaucracy and legislation (e.g. compliance of church building to fire codes, compliance to first aid provisions, police checks and training days for leaders), rather than working for the kingdom of God.

As the Board comprises people who are making the economic decisions for the church, and as legal entities are all about money, it makes sense that the Elders or Deacons of the church are also the Board members. However, Elders and Deacons are a biblical model - church Boards are an invention of man (or the government).

 

[Lanolin]

Thanks for explaining, i still dont fully understand it, but then found this book 'how to grow a charity' that mentioned the Carver model and boards of trustees. And its sort of like governance so that one person isnt doing everything for accountability.
In theory its good but in practice, its red tape. You can grow a charity the secular way by relying on donors or you could just do it Gods way as He provides everything.

Jesus did form his disciples but for decision making didnt he just go straight to the top...? He asked his Father. And the other witness is the holy spirit. He didnt appoint his twelves so that his ministry could be bogged down, although one of his reasons was so they could judge the twelve tribes of israel.

Jesus solution wasnt to comply with the building codes at the time with the temple authorities basically he predicted the temple would be busted down! So what about churhces that dont have a building to look after, are they much freer to do stuff. Maybe they just rent a place or gather at someones home? Do these kinds of churches have church boards?

 

[crossnote]

Although a necessary part, I try to stay clear of the politics in a Church.

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; (1Co 12:4)
and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; (1Co 12:5)

...and Church governance is not one of mine.

 

[he-rat_of_the_circus-mice]

Jesus solution wasnt to comply with the building codes at the time with the temple authorities basically he predicted the temple would be busted down! So what about churhces that dont have a building to look after, are they much freer to do stuff. Maybe they just rent a place or gather at someones home? Do these kinds of churches have church boards?

It can be easier for individuals, as typically the government constituted entity becomes the target in the event of any wrong-doing, rather than individuals. For example, in the case of alleged abuse, the abuser and government entity would be the primary targets for being sued, but government mandates usually requiring a level of insurance for government created entities would mean this would likely be covered by insurance. In the case where there is no government entity, it might be individuals who are sued for not having prevented the situation, and without insurance, these are likely to suffer personal loss (either defending against the claim, or in the event that damages are awarded against them).

People can rent a place and/or gather at someone's home, but then they are paying someone to rent, and there is liability associated with this (e.g. rented place gets trashed, or someone dies of a heart attack at the meeting and no one to offer first aid), and/or liability associated with people meeting at someone's home (similar situation).

 

[Lanolin]

Yea but whos going to trash someones home if its a church meeting, and as christians why would anyone sue anyone else if all of you are believers wouldnt you let God be the judge and sort it out?