Did you see the word read in my statement? And do you think I can read the word and not get any benefit?
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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R
Rasputin_OZ
Guest
Ok I outta here , I did not come to have debates over what was or wasn't said, you win as it is your goal to win this argument,
I am so sorry.
I am so sorry.
No need to apologize mate......just don't add or embellish what I have said...
I have a problem with my teaching. I want to just share my testimony and let God
teach those who are willing to listen to Him.
My question is the question of reality. Is Jesus in your heart, and has He transformed
you through repentance and faith?
Everything I discuss beyond this is pointless, because it is dependant on these realities
taking place. A number of contributors clearly have shut God out of their hearts, so
agreement will never progress. A sinner who desires to stay a sinner is lost.
Jesus came with one starting point. Repent for the Kingdom of God is here.
If people want to argue with me about these truths, I cannot really argue it, it is there
in all the testimonies and instruction. A sinner who refuses to resolve their sin is just
a lawless person mascarading as a believer and follower.
8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
James 4:8-10
One knows one has got it wrong if you believe mourning, grieving, wailing is pointless
for sin, you do not understand sin kills you, sin is the end of life and the cause of the
day of judgement. We know heretics are here when sin is not the cause of the day
of judgement when it is the only reason.
God bless you
...I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. Romans 8:18-25 Future Glory
...Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. Hebrews 9:27-28
Salvation does not STOP in JUSTIFICATION...it is the starting point. Jesus and the Father did not stop working and so has the body of Christ rested in their work of SALVATION through the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. John 5:17-21,28-29
... I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. John 14:12
...These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40
I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:2-3
...Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Philippians 3:12-16 Pressing on Toward the Goal
U
UnderGrace
Guest
...How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Romans 10:14-17
Are preachers not workers? Is preaching not a work? Did someone preach to you the Gospel of our salvation? Did you believe God when you heard the message of the Gospel through that preacher?
...It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. Ephesians 4:11-16 (see also 1 Corinthians chapter 12 & 13)
U
UnderGrace
Guest
I would say this man sets a false dichotomy, and two camps of error refuting error.
Well.....in Sydney for the night....fly out tomorrow at 9:30 am....back to the U.S. dia the freak show in LAX......you all pray for good flights for me...then from LAX to St. Louis....hahha Gonna miss "Stralia" yet again hah
Well now we are in agreement ...finally!!!
Free grace believers disown those who would obey Jesus.
We who desire righteousness and to follow our Lord because we love Him,
are not legalists, or fault finders, but believe God is at work in us, with open
hearts full of the Holy Spirit to teach and guide us.
If theology creates condemnation and not conviction there is something wrong.
If reading Christs words becomes painful, one needs to repent and get right with Him.
We know we need to change and the Lord stays still, and is always the same, so we
should expect change and challenge, to grow and develop in His love and grace.
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed
into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit
2 Corinthians 3:18
A closed heart, closed emotions, unrepented sins, continual rebellion and avoiding Christs
ways are not hearts who know the Lord.
Paul our example walked with a clean conscience and a clean heart, so should we.
Scripture is clear, our walk should be as the pure, blameless, holy people of the King shinning
as lights in this dark world. Amen.
If this is a problem for you, repent, put your faith in Jesus and the cross and let Him show you
through His word how to enter by the gate and walk the path, Amen
Amen! In regards to Matthew 5:20 - "unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven," this statement from Jesus would come as a shock to the multitude of people who had great admiration of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, for their knowledge of the law and seeming righteousness and holiness in external observance of the law, yet Jesus points out their righteousness was defective.
Paul explains in Romans 9:30-32 that even the Gentiles "who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone."
Paul makes it clear in Romans 10:3-4, "For they (Israel) being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES."
We see in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector an example of those who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, yet despised others. (Luke 18:9-14) We also see this today with various modern day Pharisees. The righteousness that exceeds the "righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees" (self righteousness) is the righteousness of God which is from God by faith.
Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
Romans 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference.
Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
Amen! In regards to Matthew 5:20 - "unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven," this statement from Jesus would come as a shock to the multitude of people who had great admiration of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, for their knowledge of the law and seeming righteousness and holiness in external observance of the law, yet Jesus points out their righteousness was defective.
Paul explains in Romans 9:30-32 that even the Gentiles "who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone."
Paul makes it clear in Romans 10:3-4, "For they (Israel) being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES."
We see in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector an example of those who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, yet despised others. (Luke 18:9-14) We also see this today with various modern day Pharisees. The righteousness that exceeds the "righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees" (self righteousness) is the righteousness of God which is from God by faith.
Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
Romans 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference.
Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
Interestingly there appears to be three points here
1. Righteousness of action
2. Righteousness of the heart
3. Righteousness of faith
All 3 need to be fulfilled.
Righteousness of action is walking in love and doing good not evil
Righteousness of the heart, is cleansing of sin, hatred, unforgiveness,
Righteousness of faith, our faith in God and His love and forgiveness of our sins
The pharisees had righteousness of action ( though hypocritical ) and righteousness of faith
but they missed righteousness of the heart.
Free grace believers hold only righteousness of faith, and disregard the other two as not being
important.
Jesus declared we have all 3 in Him and the cross when we repent of our sins and open up
our hearts to be purified and cleansed. There is no other way that to walk in all 3, or else
we are not walking in the Kingdom or seeing as God sees or knowing His will.
It is clear many compromise both on their hearts and their actions while claiming faith covers
everything else. Jesus and Paul do not agree. It is either real and all 3 or nothing else matters.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
You do not teach obeying Christ from what I have read?
I think your view of obeying Jesus is different to mine.
My obeying Jesus is following His commands, and those of the apostles.
As far as I understand free grace theology, obeying Jesus is just believing He has forgiven our
sins, and we can do what we like, because sin is no longer sin that needs repenting of.
To simple readers of scripture, this difference is not obvious, because for instance Jesus
commands us to love brothers and sisters in the same way He loves us ie to serve and
die for one another.
So reading Jesus I am saying we need to obey Jesus fully.
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
John 6:28-29
Believing in Jesus is listening, following and obeying Him.
Like most summary comments, you can assume different things, but if your assumption
contradicts other more detailed statements, then the assumption must be wrong.
For instance Paul says by loving our neighbour we fulfil the whole law and are walking
in the law of the Spirit. This is very different to saying we can walk with lawlessness which
some do preach.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Wrong again Mr. FHS.....you are not presenting the "free grace" biblical position correctly....figure it out and try again.
I will be waiting.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
So when conversion happens. We are miraculously transformed into glorified beings who know all truth and have no ability to sin?
Yeah. I did not think so
I am telling you how things come across. I am not here to figure out others positions, because I know
mine with a clear conscience and heart full of rejoicing to Him. Are you incapable of expressing your
point of view, as I have simply expressed mine? Are you this timid, my friend?
I give up saying where others are, than just outlining my problems with their position.
Those who understand little about such things then go silent, which is fine, I just testify to the Lord.
Amen. God bless you
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Well you should figure out other peoples positions, it is crucial.
One can never be objective otherwise.