Is Ultimate Release from Hell Possible?

[MadHermit]

This is the first of my 2 planned posts on release from Hell in Revelatiion:
(1) The possibility of universal salvation envisaged in Philippian hymn in 2:6-11 [see earlier post on this] is reiterated in another hymn in Revelation 5:13:

"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth [= Hades] and in the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To the One who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!’’”

Again, are we to assume that the damned worship God and Christ only to await a lever to be pulled that opens the gates of darkness and sucks them down, screaming back to Hell? Presumably their praise and worship are expressions of gratitude for their ultimate redemption. But how do John’s visions perceive the mechanism of their redemption?

(2) Rev. 21 portrays the descent of the New Jerusalem which never actually lands on Earth and which is therefore clearly an image of Heaven. Its gates remain eternally open:

“Its gates will never be shut by day–and there is no night there (21:25).”

This image of eternally open gates implies traffic coming and going. But coming and going for what purpose? On what missions? The answer must surely be sought from John’s vision of what lies outside the gates: “Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood (22:15).”
So the traffic coming and going through the eternally open gates involves soul retrievals of the repentant damned, who are destined to join the heavenly chorus of 5:13.

The next 2 Christian apocalypses after Revelation reinforce this glorious hope in their depiction of the reaction of deceased saints to the absence of their damned loved ones from Heaven. These saints intercede for soul retrievals or outright reclamation of the damned from Hell and their petitions are granted (see Apocalypse of Peter 14 (125 AD); Sibylline Oracles II, 331-335 (150 AD)).

John’s imagery implies this glorious but never stated principle for God’s fulfillment of His redemptive purpose: Heaven cannot be Heaven for the redeemed whose essence is love as long as they remain aware of loved ones languishing in Hell. Your success is my success, but your failure is my failure.

 

[Melach]

This is the first of my 2 planned posts on release from Hell in Revelatiion:
(1) The possibility of universal salvation envisaged in Philippian hymn in 2:6-11 [see earlier post on this] is reiterated in another hymn in Revelation 5:13:

"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth [= Hades] and in the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To the One who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!’’”

Again, are we to assume that the damned worship God and Christ only to await a lever to be pulled that opens the gates of darkness and sucks them down, screaming back to Hell? Presumably their praise and worship are expressions of gratitude for their ultimate redemption. But how do John’s visions perceive the mechanism of their redemption?

(2) Rev. 21 portrays the descent of the New Jerusalem which never actually lands on Earth and which is therefore clearly an image of Heaven. Its gates remain eternally open:

“Its gates will never be shut by day–and there is no night there (21:25).”

This image of eternally open gates implies traffic coming and going. But coming and going for what purpose? On what missions? The answer must surely be sought from John’s vision of what lies outside the gates: “Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood (22:15).”
So the traffic coming and going through the eternally open gates involves soul retrievals of the repentant damned, who are destined to join the heavenly chorus of 5:13.

The next 2 Christian apocalypses after Revelation reinforce this glorious hope in their depiction of the reaction of deceased saints to the absence of their damned loved ones from Heaven. These saints intercede for soul retrievals or outright reclamation of the damned from Hell and their petitions are granted (see Apocalypse of Peter 14 (125 AD); Sibylline Oracles II, 331-335 (150 AD)).

John’s imagery implies this glorious but never stated principle for God’s fulfillment of His redemptive purpose: Heaven cannot be Heaven for the redeemed whose essence is love as long as they remain aware of loved ones languishing in Hell. Your success is my success, but your failure is my failure.

apocalypse of peter isnt canonical scripture. dont know why thats supposed to be taken serious. dear friend i am worried for your stances.. are you a universalist? are you born again?

 

[garee]

Well, not if you ignore that it was the religious leaders who were "filled with wrath" and that Jesus "suffered wrongfully" for "doing well" as "an example to us." Hello?

Not one thing is attributed to the Satan inspired crowd . The father even put the disciples asleep to show their was a work between the father and the Son. When that part of the three day demonstration was completed, then the disciples were awaked by the father in heaven.

The doubting was while the father poured out the wrath. It was a cry of help, the father sent relief together they finished it

 

[posthuman]

I'm glad you looked it up so that you will be careful to avoid commiting it again.

ex. "modern commentaries are correct. they reach different conclusions than traditional commentaries, therefore it is proven that they are correct."

ex. "my ideas are correct. i find extra-scriptural sources that support my personal conclusions, therefore they are correct too."

 

[MadHermit]

Melach: "apocalypse of peter isnt canonical scripture. dont know why thats supposed to be taken serious."
The canonicity of the Apocalypse of Peter (125 AD) is irrelevant to this thread's issue. The relevant point is this: after Revelation, the next 2 Christian apocalypses (also Sibylline Oraces II (150 AD) support my interpretation of the texts in Revelation toat imply ultimate releases from Hell, and so, they bar witness to the original intent of Revelation. Don't you at least hope that all your unsaved loved loves ones will ultimately be saved? Or will your attitude in Heaven be: "Phew, well at least I made it! To Hell with the rest of them!" Unlike you, the authors of these later apocalypses have compassion for the lost.

Melach: "dear friend i am worried for your stances.. are you a universalist? are you born again?"
God's Word teaches that God's love never abandons the sinner,even after death. We have a great and loving God whom you want to shrink down to your more exclusivistic image. Yes, praise God, and I spent a whole summer witnessing to the Gospel in the streets and house to house. Have you done that ? Your God is too small!

 

[posthuman]

The canonicity of the Apocalypse of Peter (125 AD) is irrelevant to this thread's issue. The relevant point is this: after Revelation, the next 2 Christian apocalypses (also Sibylline Oraces II (150 AD) support my interpretation of the texts in Revelation toat imply ultimate releases from Hell, and so, they bar witness to the original intent of Revelation.

"my interpretation is correct"
"a source shares my interpretation, therefore that source is correct"

Begging the Question (petitio principii)​

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(also known as: assuming the initial point, assuming the answer, chicken and the egg argument, circulus in probando, circular reasoning [form of], vicious circle)​

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Description: Any form of argument where the conclusion is assumed in one of the premises. Many people use the phrase “begging the question” incorrectly when they use it to mean, “prompts one to ask the question”. That is NOT the correct usage. Begging the question is a form of circular reasoning.​

​

Logical Form:​

​

Claim X assumes X is true.​

​

Therefore, claim X is true.​

poster boy

 

[MadHermit]

posthuman,
Nope! You still don't grasp how arguements beg the question. My argument is based on my exegesis that expresses the modern consensus of NT scholars like Eugene Boring and Matthias Rissi. But tnere is a separate issue of the relevance of prevailing cultural beiiefs to authorial intention and one way to explore that intention is to confront the bias created by modern imposition of our dogmatic agenda on ancient texts. in the visionary communities that produce 1st and early 3nd century Christian apocalypses, there is a consensus that God authorizes release from Hell.

 

[Melach]

Melach: "apocalypse of peter isnt canonical scripture. dont know why thats supposed to be taken serious."
The canonicity of the Apocalypse of Peter (125 AD) is irrelevant to this thread's issue. The relevant point is this: after Revelation, the next 2 Christian apocalypses (also Sibylline Oraces II (150 AD) support my interpretation of the texts in Revelation toat imply ultimate releases from Hell, and so, they bar witness to the original intent of Revelation. Don't you at least hope that all your unsaved loved loves ones will ultimately be saved? Or will your attitude in Heaven be: "Phew, well at least I made it! To Hell with the rest of them!" Unlike you, the authors of these later apocalypses have compassion for the lost.

Melach: "dear friend i am worried for your stances.. are you a universalist? are you born again?"
God's Word teaches that God's love never abandons the sinner,even after death. We have a great and loving God whom you want to shrink down to your more exclusivistic image. Yes, praise God, and I spent a whole summer witnessing to the Gospel in the streets and house to house. Have you done that ? Your God is too small!

if it was up to me there would be no hell to begin with. dont blame me, i didnt make up the rules

bible is clear friend. hellfire is eternal. matthew 25:46, same duration for eternal life and eternal judgment

i dont like it , but i didnt write matthew.

thanks for talking to me in that condescending way btw. God will bless me for it

 

[preston39]

This ...no hell....hell for a little while....G-d will ultimate save all...etc.,.... are new, new age religion interpretations of scriptures and are......absurd.
Even if the pope says them....ignore them for they violate scripture...entirely. Remember he said....homosexuals...if G-d made you like that then He loves you like that. A play on words...G-d does love the sinner, all sinners but, the pope inferred other meaning.

 

[Waggles]

Is Ultimate Release from Hell Possible?
assuming you mean the Lake of Fire and not the grave (Sheol, Hades)
Not according the scriptures - not according to sound doctrine …

Proverbs 2:
16 So you will be delivered from the forbiddena woman, [false religion, another gospel …]
from the adulteress with her smooth words, [deceiving dosctrines and the like …]
17 who forsakes the companion of her youth
and forgets the covenant of her God;
18 for her house sinks down to death,
and her paths to the departed;
19 none who go to her come back,
nor do they regain the paths of life.


20 So you will walk in the way of the good
and keep to the paths of the righteous.
21 For the upright will inhabit the land,
and those with integrity will remain in it,
22 but the wicked will be cut off from the land,
and the treacherous will be rooted out of it.

 

[Melach]

Is Ultimate Release from Hell Possible?
assuming you mean the Lake of Fire and not the grave (Sheol, Hades)
Not according the scriptures - not according to sound doctrine …

Proverbs 2:
16 So you will be delivered from the forbiddena woman, [false religion, another gospel …]
from the adulteress with her smooth words, [deceiving dosctrines and the like …]
17 who forsakes the companion of her youth
and forgets the covenant of her God;
18 for her house sinks down to death,
and her paths to the departed;
19 none who go to her come back,
nor do they regain the paths of life.


20 So you will walk in the way of the good
and keep to the paths of the righteous.
21 For the upright will inhabit the land,
and those with integrity will remain in it,
22 but the wicked will be cut off from the land,
and the treacherous will be rooted out of it.

waggles hello friend. your name reminds me of a dog wagging its tail. heheheheh

i read your testimony in your profile praise God. do you believe in a pre-trib rapture? i also have a tesitmony maybe i will rwite it here one day.

 

[Journeyman]

Yes, I'm afraid you are still missing the point. You don't understand how biblical scholars determine the meaning of key theological concepts. Palestinian expressions derive their meaning from their use in the prevailing Hebrew-speaking culture. So in the case of ancient rabbinic Judaism, the meaning of the expression "saved, yet so as by fire" is important for understanding Pauline usage.

Paul used that expression in reference to standing before God in final judgment. The judgment seat of Christ will not only expose the works of men, but men themselves.

Jesus could have used other terms for Hell, but He chose to use the standard term used by the rabbis and that decision suggests that He largely endorses their conception.

Jesus never used the term "gehenna" as a temporary place of purification.

This inference is confirmed by His use of the image of a debtor's prison for Gehenna from which the possibility of ultimate release is possible

The lesson of the unforgiving servant is, Forgive, or you will not be forgiven. "10,000 talents" was a sum that could never be repaid, whether in or out of prison. So, he would pay for his unforgiveness with the rest of his life. And unforgiving people do live in torment.

and by His use of imagery (e. g. "few stripes") that implies a finite limit to one's stay in Gehenna. [See my earlier post that explains this in greater detail.]

The imagery is that God is just in judgment, not that man is exonerated. Jesus said it would be more tolerable for Sodom on judgment day than for the people who saw his greatness. This doesn't mean the ungodly will be saved on judgment day.

 

[Journeyman]

Not one thing is attributed to the Satan inspired crowd

All of it is. They transgressed God's command for condemning Jesus to death without cause,

And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree, his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) Deut.21:22-23

This proves Christian theologians have misinterpreted what Jesus "becoming a curse for us" means. He was only "accursed by God" in the minds of those who falsely accused him. The idea that God viewed the Son as a curse is heresy.

God said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mt.3:17

But they said, we know that this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24

Anyone who believes God cursed his own Son will be damned.

 

[garee]

All of it is. They transgressed God's command for condemning Jesus to death without cause,

And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree, his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) Deut.21:22-23

This proves Christian theologians have misinterpreted what Jesus "becoming a curse for us" means. He was only "accursed by God" in the minds of those who falsely accused him. The idea that God viewed the Son as a curse is heresy.

God said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mt.3:17

But they said, we know that this man is a sinner. Jn.9:24

Anyone who believes God cursed his own Son will be damned.

Its not that we are not all guilty. But the actual demonstration is in respect the father and Son working together in Isaiah 53 .It leaves out the Satan inspired mob as having part of the father striking the Son in order to bring the peace of God that surpasses our understanding.

It is why the father put the disciples to sleep so that they also would be eleimantied from the work of the father and Son working in perfect unity.

 

[Journeyman]

Its not that we are not all guilty. But the actual demonstration is in respect the father and Son working together in Isaiah 53 .It leaves out the Satan inspired mob as having part of the father striking the Son in order to bring the peace of God that surpasses our understanding.

You are wrong. Jesus said,

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered Mt.26:31

He was smitten because of God. Because of his love for his Father...by God haters. And when the sheep saw this,

But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled. Mt.26:56

[QUOTE="garee, post: 3895963, member: 237842"
It is why the father put the disciples to sleep so that they also would be eleimantied from the work of the father and Son working in perfect unity.[/QUOTE]No, After their nap, Peter chopped someone's ear off, then ran away and denied knowing Jesus three times and he wasn't dreaming.

How sickening is the filthy heresy believed by most of christiandom today.

 

[posthuman]

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_____

i am happy to see you at least trying to use quotes

use the 'preview' button instead of just hitting 'post reply' right away. then you can see how your post will look. once you hit 'post reply' you only have 5 minutes to edit, but you can preview what you are trying to post, proofread and edit that, as long as you like

 

[MadHermit]

Journeyman,
First, you don't get to exclude secondary lessons of Jesus' parable of the 2 servants simply because the primary lesson is different. One secondary lesson is that the unforgiving servant is neither executed nor given a life sentence; rather he is consigned to debtor's prison "until he should pay back all he owed (Matthew 18:34)." This place of torture is an image of Gehenna and the implication is that the debt can theoretically be paid. Your claim that he can't ignores Jesus' routine use of Semitic hyperbole and is in any case not stated in the text.
Second, Paul's use of "the day" in 1 Corinthians 3:13 leaves unclear whether he has in mind a preliminary judgement at death or the final judgment. But even if you are corect, that does not mean that the believers in question can't be retrieved from Gehenna and be "saved, yet so as by fire." Indeed, the rabbinic use of this expression points in that direction and Paul, as an ex-Pharisee can be presumed to use the same language that he once used prior to his conversion.

 

[posthuman]

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered Mt.26:31

He cites Zechariah 13:7 -

"Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, And against the man, My Associate," declares the LORD of Hosts. "Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones. "​

​

isn't it after all, the LORD who does the striking? He lays down His life, and no one takes it from Him

 

[Ahwatukee]

On the contrary, Christ's atoning death on t he cross covers all!

"When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself (John 12:23)."

But the subject here is ultimate release from Hell, not universalism, and damned souls still need to respond positively to Gold's offer of grace and mercy.

There will be no release from Sheol/Hades (except when the wicked are resurrected in order to be judged) and no release from the Lake of fire. Once an unbeliever dies in their sins, that's it! They will have died in their sins and salvation is no longer on the table. Today (while you're alive) is the day of salvation. After the death of the unbeliever, the offer of salvation is off the table.

Anyone's name not found in the book of life, will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[posthuman]

Anyone's name not found in the book of life, will be cast into the lake of fire.

to be converted to this hermit's belief seems to me to be to believe that God throws into hell some people whose names are written in the Lamb's book.

i suspect there's a reason he is a hermit, and also that the fact he is a hermit is a reason for some other things.