Pastors

[posthuman]

Im not sure who does the 'payin' but I think it would be the denominations leadership...?

Depends on the church and its affiliation, I think. A church might be somewhat independent and pay out of the donations the congregation gives, or it may be part of a large denomination and pay from a pooled fund from many churches. I have a good friend who was a methodist minister and this is how he drew a salary, from the United Methodists group. They chose the churches he was assigned to, as well, it wasn't the congregation or him applying to one.

I'm sure there a variety of ways that gets sorted out.

 

[Chester]

When that was written I doubt there were many dysfunctional homes If any..

Are you joking? (If you are not joking, you must just be quite ignorant of history!)

 

[Chester]

"Bishop" is not a biblical word; it's an English word that was used in the KJV in place of the Greek word "episkopos" which means "overseer". Paul's letter to Timothy outlines the qualifications for functioning in the role of "overseer", of which "manages their household well" is one of several. The "his" also isn't in the Greek.

The only mention of "pastor" (Greek "poimen") in the NT is in Ephesians 4, where it is listed alongside other leadership functions. The word itself means "shepherd". "Pastor" comes from the same root from which we get "pasture". "Shepherd" is translated from the same Greek word, and appears far more often in the NT, so that gives us a better idea of the role and responsibilities.

Deacons and elders have different roles and responsibilities. Deacons are first described in Acts 6, where the term is used of several men who were chosen to fulfill a specific needed function in the burgeoning church. Those who are officially recognized and appointed to a specific ministry in a local church, but who are not in any governing role, would be comparable to deacons.

Excellent post: Let me add one more summary point:
It seems that there were two offices in the early church:
(a) deacons - who took care of the physical needs
(b) pastors/elders/overseers - who took care of the spiritual needs.

It seems pastors, elders, and bishops (overseers) all describe the same office. Timothy and Titus only give qualifications for two offices.

 

[stonesoffire]

Are you joking? (If you are not joking, you must just be quite ignorant of history!)

Am speaking of the Jews Chester.

 

[Lanolin]

Am speaking of the Jews Chester.

Interesting I wouldnt say Jews couldnt have dysfunctional families I mean I have read several that are extremely dysfunctional because they can be extremely religiously legalistic. Its a myth to think Jews dont have the same troubles as everyone else in their families. And some do get drunk, are snobs, are violent, greedy, and let their children go astray.

Even back in Jesus day, there were publicans and sinners, Judas shunned Mary, Peter tried to cut off someones ear, the tax collectors were greedy, and there were children running loose wanting to see Jesus and the disciples thought they were annoying. Many jews were downright shameful in their behaviour as they went round stoning people for the slightest offence. saul admitting being the chief sinner among them.

 

[Lanolin]

Depends on the church and its affiliation, I think. A church might be somewhat independent and pay out of the donations the congregation gives, or it may be part of a large denomination and pay from a pooled fund from many churches. I have a good friend who was a methodist minister and this is how he drew a salary, from the United Methodists group. They chose the churches he was assigned to, as well, it wasn't the congregation or him applying to one.

I'm sure there a variety of ways that gets sorted out.

Isnt both scenarios treating their pastors as hirelings then? I thought pastors might have their own means or jobs to do and not expect their sheep to provide them with a living or to feed them. Cos isnt it a shepherd feeds the sheep, not the sheep feed the shepherd?

 

[stonesoffire]

Interesting I wouldnt say Jews couldnt have dysfunctional families I mean I have read several that are extremely dysfunctional because they can be extremely religiously legalistic. Its a myth to think Jews dont have the same troubles as everyone else in their families. And some do get drunk, are snobs, are violent, greedy, and let their children go astray.

Even back in Jesus day, there were publicans and sinners, Judas shunned Mary, Peter tried to cut off someones ear, the tax collectors were greedy, and there were children running loose wanting to see Jesus and the disciples thought they were annoying. Many jews were downright shameful in their behaviour as they went round stoning people for the slightest offence. saul admitting being the chief sinner among them.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the full definition of dysfunctional. I see this as parents with obedient children as functional. Disobedient- dysfunctional. There's a verse in the OT stating that if a child rebels and won't be corrected, stone him. Not sure if her is included.

Stoning would be a good reason to obey. 😉

 

[Lanolin]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the full definition of dysfunctional. I see this as parents with obedient children as functional. Disobedient- dysfunctional. There's a verse in the OT stating that if a child rebels and won't be corrected, stone him. Not sure if her is included.

Stoning would be a good reason to obey. 😉

Ok but theres lots of examples of rebellious jewish children I wouldnt say it was a rare thing. Besides why would PAul specify in his letter those qualitications if there werent people like that. And all through the OT you have examples I mean look at David, had more than one wife, and he couldnt keep his own children on the straight and narrow! He commited adultery and his children did worse. He would be totally disqualified to be a bishop in the NT church.

 

[stonesoffire]

Isnt both scenarios treating their pastors as hirelings then? I thought pastors might have their own means or jobs to do and not expect their sheep to provide them with a living or to feed them. Cos isnt it a shepherd feeds the sheep, not the sheep feed the shepherd?

Lanolin

I believe it's the attitude of the heart of the Pastor,that one could be a hireling. Is he called of God? Or is it just a job? If called, he would love his sheep and care for their well being in every way. As I see it.

 

[stonesoffire]

Ok but theres lots of examples of rebellious jewish children I wouldnt say it was a rare thing. Besides why would PAul specify in his letter those qualitications if there werent people like that. And all through the OT you have examples I mean look at David, had more than one wife, and he couldnt keep his own children on the straight and narrow! He commited adultery and his children did worse. He would be totally disqualified to be a bishop in the NT church.

We forget that there were people formerly pagan without instruction on moral living. No so with the Jews.

 

[stonesoffire]

We forget that there were people formerly pagan without instruction on moral living. No so with the Jews.

As the other poster stated (sorry, forgot exactly who but I think it was Miri) mistakes are never the problem.

It's always the heart that's the heart of the matter. 😀

This was to Lanolins post. I clicked on my own. Lol

 

[Lafftur]

King David was a shepherd over his father's sheep. He led them, fed them, gave them still waters to drink, protected them by killing a lion and a bear or anything or anyone that would try to steal, harm, or kill them.

I bet David knew them all by name and personality - like pets.

I think it's important to note that Pastors do not own the sheep, the sheep belong to the Father. Pastors are tending to their Father's sheep, just like David did.

 

[Lanolin]

We forget that there were people formerly pagan without instruction on moral living. No so with the Jews.

True but because the jews were instructed and many did rebel that makes it kinda worse for them, cos many know what is good to do but still turn away.

Besides the NT church is made up of both gentiles and jews so I dont think its addressing just a certain subset, but your right that Paul being a teacher of the gentiles, had to put in these guidelines and be specific. Its not like anyone can say I believe, and then be a bishop and look after the spiritual wellbeing of others, when their own life isnt a shining example of walking in faith.

 

[Lanolin]

King David was a shepherd over his father's sheep. He led them, fed them, gave them still waters to drink, protected them by killing a lion and a bear or anything or anyone that would try to steal, harm, or kill them.

I bet David knew them all by name and personality - like pets.

I think it's important to note that Pastors do not own the sheep, the sheep belong to the Father. Pastors are tending to their Father's sheep, just like David did.

He started out with a shepherds heart but did lose his way thats the sad thing about David. Although he did repent so he wasnt beyond redemption, but I would say Paul wouldnt dream of appointing David to be a bishop in the church. Back in the day yes he was made King, but then the previous King saul was so bad that anyone after saul would have done better.

I think that relates back to Davuds sin of adultery and murder that had huge negative consequences for his children. He wasnt blameless. In the NT church people had to prove their worth first to hold that office.

 

[Homewardbound]

Ok the word episkopis isnt that where the word episcopalian comes from?

In anglican churches they arent called pastors at all, its reverend, or vicar, or priest. They do have bishops, but other churches dont have bishops, some have elders, but some dont have deacons. Its all very confusing at times.

In acts 6, they appoint seven deacons.
As for pastors...can there be as many as is practical...but all churches have at least one dont they? What about chaplains are they the same.

What else is a pastor meant to do, the obvious one is give a sermon each week, (this is the feeding of the flock) but do many do more than that...or do they do this in other ways. What if the sheep cannot come to be gathered does the pastor go out and look for them, call them. Can a pastor ever turn someone away and say Im too busy for you right now.

How do people know they are called to pastor? Is a youth leader or bible study leader the same as as a pastor. How does a pastor know the state of his flock..can he tell if they are healthy or not just in terms of numbers, what does a healthy flock look like.

I notice many books and articles talking about pastors often boast how many members belong to their flock but is numbers any indication of a healthy flock?

Do numbers indicate a healthy flock? I do not think so. There are many smaller churches that are of high health. I believe it has to do with the lives the flock leads, as the pastor leads them. Hope that makes sense.

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

I have a question or two what makes a good pastor, and what makes a bad one?
What is their true role, and how are they different from other kinds of ministers in the church?
What examples of pastors in the OT and NT that we can learn from?

A Shepherd! One called of God, and who is anointed to walk daily seeing after his 🐑; an apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher or Evangelist! One given to know and teach the gifts of the Holy Spirit amongst them! One who is slow to anger or wrath! Among many other things, but mostly one who is called of God to Shepherd His Sheep 🐑!!

 

[Lafftur]

He started out with a shepherds heart but did lose his way thats the sad thing about David. Although he did repent so he wasnt beyond redemption, but I would say Paul wouldnt dream of appointing David to be a bishop in the church. Back in the day yes he was made King, but then the previous King saul was so bad that anyone after saul would have done better.

I think that relates back to Davuds sin of adultery and murder that had huge negative consequences for his children. He wasnt blameless. In the NT church people had to prove their worth first to hold that office.

What befell David could happen to any pastor and any of us...........

David became idle, he stopped going off to war......

We should never stop or become idle in pursuing God. It is good to rest but, David rested too long.

Perhaps Paul would not dream of appointing David as a bishop but, Paul would not have even appointed himself as bishop either. He considered himself the chief of sinners.

God did appoint both David and Paul to their positions and His Ways are higher than ours. I'm so glad we do not have to prove our worth to God. He loves choosing the outcast and downtrodden and even those that seem foolish. It just becomes so obvious that any success is due to God, not the person.

Look at David and Goliath - a sling shot and 5 smooth stones? Really? lol!

Oh, I do love the ones God picks!

 

[Lanolin]

What befell David could happen to any pastor and any of us...........

David became idle, he stopped going off to war......

We should never stop or become idle in pursuing God. It is good to rest but, David rested too long.

Perhaps Paul would not dream of appointing David as a bishop but, Paul would not have even appointed himself as bishop either. He considered himself the chief of sinners.

God did appoint both David and Paul to their positions and His Ways are higher than ours. I'm so glad we do not have to prove our worth to God. He loves choosing the outcast and downtrodden and even those that seem foolish. It just becomes so obvious that any success is due to God, not the person.

Look at David and Goliath - a sling shot and 5 smooth stones? Really? lol!

Oh, I do love the ones God picks!

Yes but to be a bishop looking after a church, its like, would you appoint a known paedophile who hadnt repented to look after children? No way.
Or a lecherous man to be a pastor...I dont think so, any single ladies in the congregation better watch out.
With david, he was STEALING someone elses sheep. uriah's wife. Nathan pointed this out when he said you are the man, and the parable of the rich man and the poor man...David was the rich man stealing the poor mans sheep. So its true that 'filthy lucre' as it says in the KJV covetousness are not hallmarks of anyone to be considered for office. What was Davids downfall, not only was he idle, he was idle rich. Which was WORSE! You could forgive a poor person for stealing food to feed himself if they hungry, but its much harder to forgive a rich person for stealing a poor mans food. You'd just call that evil.

PAul totally was congnisant of Gods requirements for overseers, bishops to be a really good example to the flock, not someone children could go well, I'm going to be like him and take anyone I want and do anything i want cos my elders are rich and behave that way.

 

[Lanolin]

A Shepherd! One called of God, and who is anointed to walk daily seeing after his 🐑; an apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher or Evangelist! One given to know and teach the gifts of the Holy Spirit amongst them! One who is slow to anger or wrath! Among many other things, but mostly one who is called of God to Shepherd His Sheep 🐑!!

Good answer...well..went to one church and the pastor was a former policeman. Kind of like a shepherd, but kinda not. More like a german shepherd at times. (The dog)

The other church I go to I actually not really sure what kind of jobs he did prior to becoming a pastor. I should ask actually. He cant have just gone to bible school and studied and then got appointed. He was involved with some missions work, but in what capacity, I dont know. And I have no clue how he earned his living.

Since I live in the city, its not likely that many pastors are or were shepherds. Maybe out in the countryside they are. But sheep farming here is very different from what it is in israel. People tend to delegate sheep farming to the dogs and barbed wire and not really be actual shepherds. And shearers often work in gangs contracting, they dont really look after sheep. Sometimes veterinarians go visit but I havent come across many vets becoming pastors.

I used to be a vet nurse. For a summer job. But in the city, so we had no sheep patients. mostly dogs, cats, mice and birds.

 

[Dino246]

Good answer...well..went to one church and the pastor was a former policeman. Kind of like a shepherd, but kinda not. More like a german shepherd at times.

That gave me a good laugh. I can just see the people responding to his sermons... "Jawohl, Herr Pastor! Wie ichs ein unterheiligenvolk!"