what happens next millenium or new earth?

[Ahwatukee]

Ok that does not make any sense AT ALL to me but you seem to have it worked out in your mind.

Your claim that "I have worked it out in my mind" is a common ploy to discredit the truth, which many use. I can assure you that this information comes from many years of personal, on-going study.

The reason that it doesn't make sense to you, is because it doesn't agree with the false teachings that you have adopted.

In chapters 2 and 3, John writes letters to the seven churches, therefore, he is familiar with who the church is. Then in chapter 7 we are introduced to a group of white robe saints which no man can count, with the elder asking John who they are and which he replies that he doesn't know. Then the elder tells him that this group of saints are those who come out of the great tribulation, i.e. great tribulation saints.

In support off this, if you will notice that the word "church" is used 18 times within chapters 1 thru 3. Then, from chapter 4 onward, the word church falls off the radar. The word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is never mentioned again during the narrative of God's wrath. The next time the word is used is in the epilog in Rev.22:16. The abrupt disuse of the word "church" should be a red flag to those studying the book of Revelation.

I dont really buy the 'disappearing church' trick.
We believers are all tribulation saints because everyone of us has tribulation on this earth. If one doesnt, then I wouldnt consider them to have suffered for their faith. And unless we know suffering, we cant really know Christs redemption. They are a great multitude without number! How can there be two lots of the church?!

Your error is three fold: 1) you are not recognizing the fact that the word "hagios" translated as saints, is never used interchangeably with the word church within chapters 1 thru 3.

And 2) you're not recognizing the abrupt disuse of the word "church" after the end of chapter 3. The disuse of the word "church" after using it 18 times prior, is a God given clue that the church is no longer on the earth from chapter 4 onward.

And 3) you are not recognizing that the trials and tribulation that Jesus said all believers would have, vs. the wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer, are both different in nature and purpose. God's wrath is for those who will have continued to reject Christ and who continue to live according to the sinful nature. Those who believe in Christ have been credited with the righteousness of Christ and have been reconciled to God and you think that God is going to send them through His wrath?

In the same way, the apostles and the first century church did not suffer the wrath of God, but suffered the trials and tribulations because of their faith in Jesus Christ. By your by saying "And unless we know suffering, we cant really know Christs redemption." This would demonstrate that you do not recognize the difference between common trials and tribulation which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness vs. the unprecedented wrath of God which is soon to come upon this earth and will decimate the majority of the earths population and dismantle all human governent.

My prayer for you people is that God would unharden your hearts and open your eyes to the truth of His word, because you and many others are being deceived by the teachings of men.

By the way, the great tribulation saints are not the church. Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will descend and remove the church from the earth and then will begin the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. The church won't be exposed to God's wrath, because Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it complete. The great tribulation saints are those who will have not been ready when the Lord appears and gathers the church, but will be those who become believers after the church has been removed and during the time of God's wrath.

 

[delirious]

^ delirious, if you agree that Matthew 24:4-8 EQUALS Mark 13:5-8 EQUALS Luke 21:8-11 (ALL of these the SAME "the beginning of birth PANGS")

... then consider the following:

The "SEE" then "FLEE" is indeed following the "beginning of birth pangs [plural]" in Matthew 24.

But in Luke 21, THIS IS NOT THE CASE.

--"the beginning of birth pangs" = Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / and DESCRIBED in Lk21:8-11... [but then verse 12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (and then [vv.12-24a] describes the 70ad events which must come BEFORE the "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]/and 1Th5:2-3 is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]")]

so...

in Luke 21 the order is not "birth pangs" THEN "SEE" THEN "FLEE," but instead is "SEE [Jeru compassed with armies]" THEN "FLEE" [BEFORE ALL OF THESE--->] "beginning of birth pangs" [which is Matt24:4-8/Mt13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 and then followed by much more...].


Completely distinct and wholly different SEQUENCE (not to mention the specific thing they were/are to "SEE" in each)

Lol Divine. Not you again! Just teasing brother. I hope you are doing well.

We already went over this before. Making a distinction about before and after the birth pangs makes no difference. Jesus says that EVERYTHING in the Olivet Discourse will happen in His generation. You can't chop it up and say only some of it. Jesus said ALL.

P.S. Stop reading William Kelly. His eschatology is horrible.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

what about john 6:40 in the pre-trib camp? resurrection on the last day. like in rev 20:4. or in 1 thess 4:15-17 to the "coming" of the Lord. is there a single verse that says a resurrection of the dead in Christ/rapture occurs before the last day?

I'll be succinct here (will elaborate later if you want):

--I believe "the last day" is not a singular 24-hr day (but that, yes, the "resurrection" Martha well-knew of, will occur on a singular 24-hr day OF that time period known as "the Last Day")… I see it as fairly equivalent to the phrase "the Day of the Lord [time period]" which INCLUDES all 3 of the following: the 7-yr trib, His 2nd Coming to the earth, the entire 1000-yr earthly MK (ALL three)

--thus, the "resurrection" Martha well-knew of, occurs "IN the Last Day" (at His 2nd Coming to the earth [the second section of the afore-mentioned 3 Sections of "the Day of the Lord [time period]"])

--1 Corinthians 15:23 says, "[re: resurrection] … but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" (if there remains only ONE [point in time] resurrection, these words would be superfluous]

--2 Thessalonians 2 is providing a SEQUENCE to "how" our Rapture FITS, IN RELATION [time-wise] TO the time period known as "the Day of the Lord" (which will COMMENCE with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Mt24:4/Mk13:5 G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']" which is the "whose COMING/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" of "the man of sin" aka Seal #1 [see also Dan9:27[26] - "prince THAT SHALL COME"... "for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]" ]): "THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*" and the man of sin be revealed (when "the Day of the Lord" IS PRESENT at the START of the 7-yr trib)

--1Cor15:51-54 speaks specifically of "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (which I believe this context is referring SOLELY to "the Church which is His body"--to whom the Rapture SOLELY pertains, not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints)


Does this help?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Lol Divine. Not you again! Just teasing brother. I hope you are doing well.

We already went over this before. Making a distinction about before and after the birth pangs makes no difference. Jesus says that EVERYTHING in the Olivet Discourse will happen in His generation. You can't chop it up and say only some of it. Jesus said ALL.

P.S. Stop reading William Kelly. His eschatology is horrible.

All I'm asking you is whether or not you believe that Matt24:4-8 EQUALS Mk13:5-8 EQUALS Lk21:8-11... and then whether or not you believe v.12's "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (all these just listed).

[and then it describes the 70ad events, meaning the BoBP must come "AFTER" the 70ad events (and I don't suggest "immediately" after but that is beside the point, for the moment)]

It is a simple thing to examine.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Lol Divine. Not you again! Just teasing brother. I hope you are doing well.

We already went over this before. Making a distinction about before and after the birth pangs makes no difference. Jesus says that EVERYTHING in the Olivet Discourse will happen in His generation. You can't chop it up and say only some of it. Jesus said ALL.

P.S. Stop reading William Kelly. His eschatology is horrible.

Not "his generation" but the generation where those signs begin to take place. This is the error of all who believe as you do. They get rid of all the signs that accompany and identify the generation that Jesus was speaking about. By claiming that Jesus was referring to His generation, it would get rid of the need for those signs and as I said before, would leave out the majority of the church from the Lord's promises.

These false teachings of men that you are believing in, are like yeast working through the whole batch of dough! Once the false teaching begins, if spreads like gangrene, which is exactly what has and is happening.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

All I'm asking you is whether or not you believe that Matt24:4-8 EQUALS Mk13:5-8 EQUALS Lk21:8-11... and then whether or not you believe v.12's "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (all these just listed).

[and then it describes the 70ad events, meaning the BoBP must come "AFTER" the 70ad events (and I don't suggest "immediately" after but that is beside the point, for the moment)]

It is a simple thing to examine.

I think I'll stop reading "delirious" because his eschatology completely disregards "chronology" (a MAJOR malfunction of both Amill-teachings and his own Preterist viewpoint )

 

[delirious]

All I'm asking you is whether or not you believe that Matt24:4-8 EQUALS Mk13:5-8 EQUALS Lk21:8-11... and then whether or not you believe v.12's "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" (all these just listed).

I already examined it when I went over it with you before. These verses are parallel in the Olivet Discourse. You are trying to say that these passages refer to the far distant future and then what follows after in verse 12 of Luke is 70 A.D. Jesus said ALL of it will happen in His generation. You keep trying to chop it up. Matthew's version describes the same events beginning in verse 9 and uses the word "then" meaning "at that time". Not way before like you are trying to claim.

I think I'll stop reading "delirious" because his eschatology completely disregards "chronology" (a MAJOR malfunction of both Amill-teachings and his own Preterist viewpoint )

No, that is you. I actually accept what the Scripture says and you try your hardest to get around it. When Jesus says ALL will happen in "this generation", meaning His generation, I am actually following the chronology. It is the dispensationalist who won't accept what Jesus says about the chronology.

 

[iamsoandso]

Not "his generation" but the generation where those signs begin to take place. This is the error of all who believe as you do. They get rid of all the signs that accompany and identify the generation that Jesus was speaking about. By claiming that Jesus was referring to His generation, it would get rid of the need for those signs and as I said before, would leave out the majority of the church from the Lord's promises.

These false teachings of men that you are believing in, are like yeast working through the whole batch of dough! Once the false teaching begins, if spreads like gangrene, which is exactly what has and is happening.

hello my friend, Have you ever heard of toledot/tolodoth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledot ? Why I'm asking is from your post if you noticed in Genesis 2:4 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/2-4.htm the word toldot (8435) which if Hebrew/Jewish as the disciples and our Lord are/were then if they ask in Matthew 24:3 "end of the aeon/age" then when Jesus said what he did about "this generation" he was directly answering their question(Matthew 24:3) and so he was stating that "one of the genneations of the heavens and earth(Genesis 2:4) was not going to end until all was fulfilled" (i.e. of the 7 days one day would not end and the next begin untill all were fulfilled.

 

[delirious]

Not "his generation" but the generation where those signs begin to take place. This is the error of all who believe as you do. They get rid of all the signs that accompany and identify the generation that Jesus was speaking about. By claiming that Jesus was referring to His generation, it would get rid of the need for those signs and as I said before, would leave out the majority of the church from the Lord's promises.

Jesus uses the Greek word "Genea" for generation 22 times in the New Testament outside the Olivet Discourse. All 22 times He uses it to refer to His generation. You want to change it to something different because it doesn't fit your eschatology. It is you who won't accept what Scripture says. I'm reading it and accepting what it says. You are trying to twist it.

The church isn't left out of any promises. I don't know where you get that idea from either.

These false teachings of men that you are believing in, are like yeast working through the whole batch of dough! Once the false teaching begins, if spreads like gangrene, which is exactly what has and is happening.

More irony from you. Everytime you says this you condemn yourself. You know that right? I don't say it to be mean but you should be careful the claims you make. With the judgment you measure it will be measured back to you.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I already examined it when I went over it with you before. These verses are parallel in the Olivet Discourse. You are trying to say that these passages refer to the far distant future and then what follows after in verse 12 of Luke is 70 A.D. Jesus said ALL of it will happen in His generation. You keep trying to chop it up. Matthew's version describes the same events beginning in verse 9 and uses the word "then" meaning "at that time". Not way before like you are trying to claim.

I'm not claiming that verse 9 ("then" / the events spoken of here) is referring to "way before" the beginning of birth PANGS" (I say those are a PART of them! At the same time! )

I'm pointing out how Lk21 is saying that the "BoBPs" will come "AFTER" the 70ad events (which 70ad events also had similar things happening to them as will occur in that future time period... but that both time periods are being referred to in the Olivet Discourse [distinctly!]); and as I've mentioned before, the Olivet Discourse's "ye/you" is a "proleptic 'you'," meaning "all those in the future of the same category" (and so this was spoken to those "TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised"--it was not promised to you and me ["the Church which is His body," who has a differing role]).


But the BoBPs start AFTER the 70ad events (the point of Lk21:12!), they are not themselves the 70ad events! And then, that is just "THE BEGINNING" of them, many MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" follow on from there! (and conclude with the Rev19:19/21/16:14-16/20:5 and Isa24:21-22[23] parallel passages), all coming within the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period (of the 70th Wk/7-yrs); the beginning of birth pangs being the equivalent of the SEALS of Rev6 (and the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" is what KICKS OFF that time period--at the "man of sin be revealed" point in time, and THAT cannot happen until "OUR gathering together UNTO HIM" ["THE departure FIRST"]:

"...restraining at present, until out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..."

 

[wolfwint]

You are yoking?
You realy believe this?
Then ask the jews today where they got the fulfillment.
They are still waiting. And they expect as God promissed a kingdom physically and not in fantasy pictures.

You are telling the whole time everything happend. But nobody noticed it, even John not who got the revelation after 70 ad.

 

[wolfwint]

You are yoking?
You realy believe this?
Then ask the jews today where they got the fulfillment.
They are still waiting. And they expect as God promissed a kingdom physically and not in fantasy pictures.

You are telling the whole time everything happend. But nobody noticed it, even John not who got the revelation after 70 ad.

This was an answer to Delirious for post 78

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

____________

One other thought along the same lines (as my previous post):

--Luke 21:24 [in the SECTION re: events surrounding 70ad (vv.12-24a)] "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all the nations..."


--Matthew 24:29-31 [re: their gathering] parallel to Isaiah 27:12-13 [at the "GREAT" trumpet], where Isaiah says, "ye shall be gathered ONE by ONE, O ye children of Israel" and..."and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"


Completely opposite things. (And neither of them are speaking of our Rapture, per contexts.)

 

[Melach]

brethren, i appreciate the conversation done in love. but the topic is what happens next, millennium or new earth and things related to it. not if the new earth is already come and Jesus already returned.

i dont want to belittle you delirious but i hope you understand that your view is a very small minority in christianity, and vast most people believe when Jesus returns still future many things will change.

 

[Melach]

____________

One other thought along the same lines (as my previous post):

--Luke 21:24 [in the SECTION re: events surrounding 70ad (vv.12-24a)] "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all the nations..."


--Matthew 24:29-31 [re: their gathering] parallel to Isaiah 27:12-13 [at the "GREAT" trumpet], where Isaiah says, "ye shall be gathered ONE by ONE, O ye children of Israel" and..."and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"


Completely opposite things. (And neither of them are speaking of our Rapture, per contexts.)

Matthew 24:31 isnt the rapture after all, but a gathering of israel alive at the second coming. where is the resurrection in the olivet discourse then? i dont see one word about it. ?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Matthew 24:31 isnt the rapture after all, but a gathering of israel alive at the second coming. where is the resurrection in the olivet discourse then? i dont see one word about it. ?

I see Daniel 12:13 to be speaking of Daniel [OT saint], where it says, "thou shalt rest [that is, in death] and stand in thy lot [that is, be resurrected 'to stand again on the earth'] AT THE END OF THE DAYS [that is, at the end of the specific "days" referred to IN THAT CONTEXT: vv.6-7,1-4 which is the second half of the trib [meaning, at the end of that], parallel with Rev12:6,14 and Daniel 7:27[25 (vv.20-24)--v.25 parallel with Rev13:5,7], parallel with the time period that Matt24:21 speaks of ["GREAT tribulation" which Rev7:9,14 also speaks of, "THE GREAT tribulation"], so "after the tribulation of those days," per Matthew 24:29-31... even though this section isn't explicitly spelling out "resurrection" in so many words, I believe the phrase "from the extremities" refers to "no one is left out" of the MK time period [re: saints], they are gathered from both: "from the 4 corners of the earth/winds" and "from heaven"--i.e. "from the extremities" no place left out! [their spirits now joined with bodies in resurrection] FOR the earthly MK time period--what we also see in Matthew 8:11 and its parallel [see OT saints listed there])];

The "still-living" ones (at the end of the trib) are referred to in Daniel 12:12 (parallel with a number of other "BLESSED" passages speaking of their entrance into the earthly MK time period [at the time of His Second Coming to the earth]).


Does this help?

 

[garee]

--I believe "the last day" is not a singular 24-hr day (but that, yes, the "resurrection" Martha well-knew of, will occur on a singular 24-hr day OF that time period known as "the Last Day")… I see it as fairly equivalent to the phrase "the Day of the Lord [time period]" which INCLUDES all 3 of the following: the 7-yr trib, His 2nd Coming to the earth, the entire 1000-yr earthly MK (ALL three)

The word is day as in last is that which we are in last days. Beginning to end.

It seem odd that day would be translated as a unknown and the word thousand the word that does represent a unknow is translated as literal?

Day is used in parables like the word thousand . Day (one) is compared to a unknown.(thousand)

Day as a thousand years = a unrevealed

All three parables use thousand to represent a unknow as matter of faith .The spiritual understanding hid .

Psalm 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 

[delirious]

i dont want to belittle you delirious but i hope you understand that your view is a very small minority in christianity, and vast most people believe when Jesus returns still future many things will change.

Judging what truth is based on majority opinion?

Using your logic I guess that makes Christianity not true since most people haven't believed that for the last 2,000 years.

Anyways, not trying to be rude but that is a horrible way to make decisions. God bless you brother.

 

[garee]

brethren, i appreciate the conversation done in love. but the topic is what happens next, millennium or new earth and things related to it. not if the new earth is already come and Jesus already returned.

i dont want to belittle you delirious but i hope you understand that your view is a very small minority in christianity, and vast most people believe when Jesus returns still future many things will change.

Yes many things . The former things under the Sun will not be remembered or ever come to mind.

Many are looking for Christ who is not a man as us to return in the flesh.

 

[Melach]

The word is day as in last is that which we are in last days. Beginning to end.

It seem odd that day would be translated as a unknown and the word thousand the word that does represent a unknow is translated as literal?

Day is used in parables like the word thousand . Day (one) is compared to a unknown.(thousand)

Day as a thousand years = a unrevealed

All three parables use thousand to represent a unknow as matter of faith .The spiritual understanding hid .

Psalm 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

brother. i have been amillennial for quite time. but i am seriously now reconsidering, i never really got interested in prophecy deeply until recently. i think the biggest problem to demonstrate for amillennial is satan bound. thats a tough task to prove. do you got something to disprove premillennialism? here is from evidenceunseen.com good things to consider:


Amillennialists often retort that Satan is still active, but he can’t stop the nations from being deceived from the gospel (“bound him… so that he would not deceive the nations any longer”). For instance, amillennial G.K. Beale writes,

​

Christ’s work of restraining the devil’s ability to ‘deceive’ is not a complete curtailment of all of the devil’s activities but only a restraint on his deceiving activities… The locking up of the ‘abyss’ in 20:1-3 may convey the idea that Satan and his hordes cannot be on the loose to deceive those ‘who did not receive the mark [of the beast] on their foreheads.[7]

However, we might retort: Why would John write that Satan is bound from the spreading of the gospel, if he really is actually entering the hearts of believers (Acts 5:3; 2 Tim. 2:24-26), scheming against believers (2 Cor. 2:11), thwarting Paul’s ministry (1 Tim. 2:18), looking to destroy believers (1 Pet. 5:8), blinding the eyes of non-Christians (2 Cor. 4:4), and currently in control of the whole world (1 Jn. 5:19-20)? Moreover, can we really say that the spread of the gospel has been unopposed in closed countries by Satan? When we speak with missionaries on the field, we find that Satan has been anything but docile in opposing the spread of the gospel.