The Holy Spirit is Jesus.

[Noose]

The OP is just a question. Are you meaning tourists post? If so, I guess I do.

You can take this or leave this because it's just an opinion. This came to me: if God ever had a moment in eternity which I can't see could happen, but if there was a moment that He first spoke, Word manifests produced by action of Word, Holy Spirit manifests. God is Spirit. Angels are Spirit. We too are Spirit now being born of Spirit. All one Spirit.

Something we cannot touch in our reality being outside of this natural realm.

Is this an answer? Or not?

No it's not.

 

[Deade]

Then help me understand, is the husband and wife also echad? and is the unification of the husband and wife similar to what we can describe God?

Yes Noose, the Hebrew "echad" is used to indicate a marriage union. Here is the one flesh statement:

Gen. 2:24 "ThereforeH5921 H3651 shall a manH376 leaveH5800 (H853) his fatherH1 and his mother,H517 and shall cleaveH1692 unto his wife:H802 and they shall beH1961 oneH259 flesh.H1320"

The word for "one" - H259
אֶחָד
'echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.

 

[posthuman]

If they are two different persons, then we have a lot more issues; it means two different Gods, violating the most basic law.

only if you constrain God to have the properties of existence of an human.

 

[TheLearner]

I do not know and that's the reason i'm asking a very simple question:

Q. Is Jesus by Himself, one person in one being and one God?

Quoting those that you think were taught by the apostles and those after them doesn't help because the bible doesn't refer anyone to those that were taught by the apostles. It doesn't work like that, why would you refer to someone else outside the 66 books in the bible that are meant to explain the same?

I quote them because they are in fact History of the Early Church and they are in fact disciples of the Apostles.

It is well known that they were taught by the Apostles and their writings are in fact History.
http://biblefacts.org/pdf/twelve.pdf even this bible site gives a chart about that.

Clement is referred to in Philippians 4:3 NIV -
Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the.

Ignatius was an Father of the Church, a disciple, with Polycarp, of John.

In 117 he was sentenced to death by the Emperor Trajan and arrested in Antioch. He was brought, on a slow journey that lasted months, to the circus in Rome to be devoured by lions.

In fact, your very New Testament was compiled and copied down through the centuries by the same Church Fathers and Scholars whom you are choosing to be ignorant of. If you can not trust the history recorded by them then you have no reason to trust the Bible itself.

The texts of the NT were given to them and to others in the fold too. They and the others made copies of the NT and sent them to others who were also taught by the Apostles and by those down the same chain. Those people made copies to pass down. Around 400 AD, the NT Canon was finalized at a Council.

As for the scriptural proof of the Trinity I already posted an outline of that doctrine. Go though it and read the related Scriptures for yourself.

Hang in there,
daniel

 

[TheLearner]

The OT never says three persons in one being.
The OT also says a husband and wife are one in unity but we know what a husband and wife look like, they are two persons in two beings, aren't they?

Revelation is progressive. Every aspect of Jesus himself is not recorded in the OT.
There may be hints of the Trinity in the OT.

https://www.christian-faith.com/the-trinity-a-bible-study-outline/


A cursory list follows:

The word Elohim is used thousands of times for “God”; Adonai is used hundreds of times for “Lord”; both of these words are plural nouns in Hebrew.
A number of passages speak of the “faces” or “presences” or “persons” of God (Exodus 33:14; Deuteronomy 4:37; and Job 13:8).
God refers to Himself as “Us,” “Our,” and “We” (Genesis 1:26, 2:18 (LXX), 3:22, 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, and 41:21-24),2 a phenomenon that is reflected in virtually every English translation.
The OT says of God, “they caused me to wander” (Genesis 20:13), “they appeared” (Genesis 35:7), “they drew nigh” (Deuteronomy 4:7), “they went” (2 Samuel 7:23), and “they judge” (Psalm 58:11).
The OT calls God our “Creators” (Ecclesiastes 12:1), “Makers” and “Husbands” (Job 35:10; Psalm 149:2; Isaiah 54:5).
The OT says that God is “holy” (Joshua 24:19; Proverbs 9:10, 30:33), another plural.https://www.answering-islam.org/authors/rogers/ot_trinity.html

D. References to the diversity of God
1. Old Testament
Gen. 1:1 - "In the beginning God (Elohim - plural) created..."
Gen. 1:26 - "Let Us (plural) make man in Our (plural) image"
Isa. 6:8 - "Who will go for Us (plural)?"
Isa. 9:6 - (Messianic) "Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace"
2. New Testament
Matt. 3:16,17 - "being baptized, Jesus...saw the Spirit of God descending...and a voice,
saying, 'This is My beloved Son...'"
Matt. 28:19 - "baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"
II Cor. 13:14 - "the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship
of the Holy Spirit, be with you all"
Gal. 4:6 - "God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts..."
Eph. 4:4-6 - "one Spirit...one Lord...one God and Father of all..."
I Pet. 1:2 - "foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that
you may obey Jesus Christ..."
I Jn. 5:7 (KJV) - (without adequate MSS evidence; interpolation)
a. Father as God
Jn. 6:27 - "the Father, God, has set His seal"
Eph. 4:6 - "one God and Father"
I Pet. 1:2 - "God the Father..."
b. Son as God - (cf. I Jn. 5:20; Phil. 2:6
Jn. 1:1 - "the Word was God"
Jn. 20:28 - "My Lord and my God"
Titus 2:13 - "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus"
Heb. 1:8 - "of the Son, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever..."
II Pet. 1:1 - "God and Savior, Jesus Christ"
c. Holy Spirit as God
Acts 5:3,4 - "lie to Holy Spirit...you have lied to God"
Rom. 8:9 - "the Spirit...Spirit of God...Spirit of Christ
I Cor. 6:11 - "the Spirit of our God"
II Cor. 3:17,18 - "the Lord is the Spirit"
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/trinity.html

 

[TheLearner]

I don't understand you. What does Bowman say in a nutshell? does he have another description of God outside the bible?

I read the bible by myself and saw that Jesus promised the disciples a comforter but i realized a few things:

1. The comforter was already there with the disciples and they knew Him
2. But Jesus had to go so that the comforter would come in them (The disciples)
3. If Jesus doesn't go, the comforter doesn't come yet the comforter was there with them and they knew Him
4. Jesus would not leave them comfortless, He would return to the shortly

Anyone with a brain who cannot be swayed by every doctrine would easily notice that Jesus is claiming to be the comforter here. He had to go and come into them in a different form. If they are two different persons, why would Jesus say "..i must go for the comforter to come.."?

Concerning Bowman outline of Trinity here it is:
http://bib.irr.org/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity

Prove your claims historically here: https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ose-who-do-not-believe-in-the-trinity.184052/

Below are the New Testament texts concerning the Comforter.



JOHN 14:15-17: "If you love me you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you."



JOHN 14:25, 26: "All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."



JOHN 15:26: "When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me."



JOHN 16:7,8: "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment...."



JOHN 16:13-15: "But when he, the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own, he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it know to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you."





Jesus spoke to his disciples about the Comforter and said that the Comforter was the Holy Spirit.



...


John 14:26 — The Comforter is specifically described as the Holy Spirit. The Comforter is not a man. Muhammad could not be the Comforter because he was never the Holy Spirit.



John 14:26 — The Comforter will be sent in Jesus' name. The Holy Spirit represented the Lord on earth. No Muslim believes that Muhammad was sent by God in Jesus name. Muhammad did not come in Jesus' name, as the apostle of Jesus, rather he came in his own name with his own questionable “revelations”.



John 14:26 — But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

The Comforter will teach these disciples and remind them of what Christ said to them. As the early Christians grew the Holy Spirit taught them. Muhammad is not the Comforter because he never knew the disciples and he didn't teach these disciples, and Muhammad never reminded the disciples of what Christ said.



John 15:26 — When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

The Comforter would be sent to these disciples. These disciples received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Muhammad was never sent to these disciples.

...
https://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/comforter.htm

 

[TheLearner]

Concerning Bowman outline of Trinity here it is:
http://bib.irr.org/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity

Prove your claims historically here: https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ose-who-do-not-believe-in-the-trinity.184052/

 

[TheLearner]

Concerning Bowman outline of Trinity here it is:
http://bib.irr.org/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity

Prove your claims historically here: https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ose-who-do-not-believe-in-the-trinity.184052/

 

[TheLearner]

I would rather stick to the bible. It can be trusted.

You used a few roman catholic sources.

No, I used historical sources of the early church. In fact, Philip Schaff who is not Catholic Translated them.

Philip Schaff (January 1, 1819 – October 20, 1893) was a Swiss-born, German-educated Protestant theologian and ecclesiastical historian...

The books of the NT were handed down to them and to others, all of which made copies and passed them down the chain.

 

[TheLearner]

Ps. I am not a protestant, Saying I protest a particular church means I actually consider that church a church, That is far from the church (at least a church of God)

I am a child of God who is adopted into the royal family of God who just hapens to be part of a local church in Columbus Ohio.

exactly how does that answer these questions?

Who said the early Church Fathers were Roman Catholic?

As I recall US Protestants claims Roman Catholicism came a lot later then them right?

 

[TheLearner]

Then help me understand, is the husband and wife also echad? and is the unification of the husband and wife similar to what we can describe God?

The Triple Point of Water is a good illustration. No illustration is perfect. When comparing finite with infinite.

 

[TheLearner]

Concerning Bowman outline of Trinity here it is:
http://bib.irr.org/biblical-basis-of-doctrine-of-trinity

Prove your claims historically here: https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ose-who-do-not-believe-in-the-trinity.184052/

 

[Noose]

only if you constrain God to have the properties of existence of an human.

Good thing God communicates to us with the intention of letting us understand; so if He says He is one then the one must be the 'one' that we understand.

 

[TheLearner]

No, i'm saying the Holy spirit was with them because Jesus was with them and they knew Him, and when Jesus goes, the Holy spirit come in them because Jesus also comes to them shortly.

John 20:22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Jesus indwelt them with the Holy Spirit while he was still on earth.

 

[TheLearner]

only if you constrain God to have the properties of existence of an human.

Remember God is the Creator, not a Creature. God is also spirit via nature, not limited as humans are.

 

[Noose]

I quote them because they are in fact History of the Early Church and they are in fact disciples of the Apostles.

It is well known that they were taught by the Apostles and their writings are in fact History.
http://biblefacts.org/pdf/twelve.pdf even this bible site gives a chart about that.

Clement is referred to in Philippians 4:3 NIV -
Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the.

Ignatius was an Father of the Church, a disciple, with Polycarp, of John.

In 117 he was sentenced to death by the Emperor Trajan and arrested in Antioch. He was brought, on a slow journey that lasted months, to the circus in Rome to be devoured by lions.

In fact, your very New Testament was compiled and copied down through the centuries by the same Church Fathers and Scholars whom you are choosing to be ignorant of. If you can not trust the history recorded by them then you have no reason to trust the Bible itself.

The texts of the NT were given to them and to others in the fold too. They and the others made copies of the NT and sent them to others who were also taught by the Apostles and by those down the same chain. Those people made copies to pass down. Around 400 AD, the NT Canon was finalized at a Council.

As for the scriptural proof of the Trinity I already posted an outline of that doctrine. Go though it and read the related Scriptures for yourself.

Hang in there,
daniel

Error #1:

Matt 23: 9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

How are you related to Clement? in what ways is he your Father?
If you don't understand simple rules, how will you ever understand God?

 

[TheLearner]

Good thing God communicates to us with the intention of letting us understand; so if He says He is one then the one must be the 'one' that we understand.

One even in English based on context and use can have different meanings:


one
[wuhn]

ADJECTIVE
1.
being or amounting to a single unit or individual or entire thing, item, or object rather than two or more; a single: one woman; one nation; one piece of cake.
2.
being a person, thing, or individual instance or member of a number, kind, group, or category indicated:one member of the party.
3.
existing, acting, or considered as a single unit, entity, or individual.
4.
of the same or having a single kind, nature, or condition: We belong to one team; We are of one resolve.
5.
noting some indefinite day or time in the future: You will see him one day.
6.
a certain (often used in naming a person otherwise unknown or undescribed): One John Smith was chosen.
7.
being a particular, unique, or only individual, item, or unit: I'm looking for the one adviser I can trust.
8.
noting some indefinite day or time in the past: We all had dinner together one evening last week.
9.
of no consequence as to the character, outcome, etc.; the same: It's all one to me whether they go or not.
NOUN
10.
the first and lowest whole number, being a cardinal number; unity.
11.
a symbol of this number, as 1 or I.
12.
a single person or thing: If only problems would come one at a time!
13.
a die face or a domino face having one pip.
14.
a one-dollar bill: to change a five-dollar bill for five ones.
15.
(initial capital letter) Neoplatonism. the ultimate reality, seen as a central source of being by whose emanations all entities, spiritual and corporeal, have their existence, the corporeal ones containing the fewest of the emanations.
PRONOUN
16.
a person or thing of a number or kind indicated or understood: one of the Elizabethan poets.
17.
(in certain pronominal combinations) a person unless definitely specified otherwise: every one.
18.
(with a defining clause or other qualifying words) a person or a personified being or agency: the evil one; the one I love.
19.
any person indefinitely; anyone: as good as one would desire.
20.
Chiefly British. (used as a substitute for the pronoun I): Mother had been ailing for many months, and one should have realized it.
21.
a person of the speaker's kind; such as the speaker himself or herself: to press one's own claims.
22.
something or someone of the kind just mentioned: The portraits are fine ones. Your teachers this semester seem to be good ones.
23.
something available or referred to, especially in the immediate area: Here, take one—they're delicious. The bar is open, so have one on me!
I
24.
one and all everyone: They came, one and all, to welcome him home.
25.
one by one singly and successively: One by one the children married and moved away.
26.
one for the road road.


The thinking that one has only one meaning is word study fallacy.

 

[Noose]

Revelation is progressive. Every aspect of Jesus himself is not recorded in the OT.
There may be hints of the Trinity in the OT.

https://www.christian-faith.com/the-trinity-a-bible-study-outline/


A cursory list follows:

The word Elohim is used thousands of times for “God”; Adonai is used hundreds of times for “Lord”; both of these words are plural nouns in Hebrew.
A number of passages speak of the “faces” or “presences” or “persons” of God (Exodus 33:14; Deuteronomy 4:37; and Job 13:8).
God refers to Himself as “Us,” “Our,” and “We” (Genesis 1:26, 2:18 (LXX), 3:22, 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, and 41:21-24),2 a phenomenon that is reflected in virtually every English translation.
The OT says of God, “they caused me to wander” (Genesis 20:13), “they appeared” (Genesis 35:7), “they drew nigh” (Deuteronomy 4:7), “they went” (2 Samuel 7:23), and “they judge” (Psalm 58:11).
The OT calls God our “Creators” (Ecclesiastes 12:1), “Makers” and “Husbands” (Job 35:10; Psalm 149:2; Isaiah 54:5).
The OT says that God is “holy” (Joshua 24:19; Proverbs 9:10, 30:33), another plural.https://www.answering-islam.org/authors/rogers/ot_trinity.html

D. References to the diversity of God
1. Old Testament
Gen. 1:1 - "In the beginning God (Elohim - plural) created..."
Gen. 1:26 - "Let Us (plural) make man in Our (plural) image"
Isa. 6:8 - "Who will go for Us (plural)?"
Isa. 9:6 - (Messianic) "Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace"
2. New Testament
Matt. 3:16,17 - "being baptized, Jesus...saw the Spirit of God descending...and a voice,
saying, 'This is My beloved Son...'"
Matt. 28:19 - "baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"
II Cor. 13:14 - "the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship
of the Holy Spirit, be with you all"
Gal. 4:6 - "God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts..."
Eph. 4:4-6 - "one Spirit...one Lord...one God and Father of all..."
I Pet. 1:2 - "foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that
you may obey Jesus Christ..."
I Jn. 5:7 (KJV) - (without adequate MSS evidence; interpolation)
a. Father as God
Jn. 6:27 - "the Father, God, has set His seal"
Eph. 4:6 - "one God and Father"
I Pet. 1:2 - "God the Father..."
b. Son as God - (cf. I Jn. 5:20; Phil. 2:6
Jn. 1:1 - "the Word was God"
Jn. 20:28 - "My Lord and my God"
Titus 2:13 - "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus"
Heb. 1:8 - "of the Son, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever..."
II Pet. 1:1 - "God and Savior, Jesus Christ"
c. Holy Spirit as God
Acts 5:3,4 - "lie to Holy Spirit...you have lied to God"
Rom. 8:9 - "the Spirit...Spirit of God...Spirit of Christ
I Cor. 6:11 - "the Spirit of our God"
II Cor. 3:17,18 - "the Lord is the Spirit"
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/trinity.html

Nope. There's no hint of a trinity in the OT, Jesus is the Father and the son and the Holy spirit.

Mal 3:1“Behold, I will send My messenger, who will prepare the way before Me. Then the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple—the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight—see, He is coming,” says the LORD of Hosts.

Isa 40:
3A voice of one calling:
“Prepare the way for the LORD in the wilderness;a
make a straight highway for our God in the desert.

Mark 1:
1This is the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.a 2As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“Behold, I will send My messenger ahead of You,
who will prepare Your way.”b
3“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for Him.’”c
4John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.5People went out to him from all of Jerusalem and the countryside of Judea. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
6John was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.7And he began to proclaim: “After me will come One more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you with water,d but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.e ”
9In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

As much as we know the Father sent the son, why can't we see that it is actually God (one person), sending Himself? In the above passages, it is made clear how the Father sent the son- He actually became the son.

 

[Noose]

One even in English based on context and use can have different meanings:


one
[wuhn]

ADJECTIVE
1.
being or amounting to a single unit or individual or entire thing, item, or object rather than two or more; a single: one woman; one nation; one piece of cake.
2.
being a person, thing, or individual instance or member of a number, kind, group, or category indicated:one member of the party.
3.
existing, acting, or considered as a single unit, entity, or individual.
4.
of the same or having a single kind, nature, or condition: We belong to one team; We are of one resolve.
5.
noting some indefinite day or time in the future: You will see him one day.
6.
a certain (often used in naming a person otherwise unknown or undescribed): One John Smith was chosen.
7.
being a particular, unique, or only individual, item, or unit: I'm looking for the one adviser I can trust.
8.
noting some indefinite day or time in the past: We all had dinner together one evening last week.
9.
of no consequence as to the character, outcome, etc.; the same: It's all one to me whether they go or not.
NOUN
10.
the first and lowest whole number, being a cardinal number; unity.
11.
a symbol of this number, as 1 or I.
12.
a single person or thing: If only problems would come one at a time!
13.
a die face or a domino face having one pip.
14.
a one-dollar bill: to change a five-dollar bill for five ones.
15.
(initial capital letter) Neoplatonism. the ultimate reality, seen as a central source of being by whose emanations all entities, spiritual and corporeal, have their existence, the corporeal ones containing the fewest of the emanations.
PRONOUN
16.
a person or thing of a number or kind indicated or understood: one of the Elizabethan poets.
17.
(in certain pronominal combinations) a person unless definitely specified otherwise: every one.
18.
(with a defining clause or other qualifying words) a person or a personified being or agency: the evil one; the one I love.
19.
any person indefinitely; anyone: as good as one would desire.
20.
Chiefly British. (used as a substitute for the pronoun I): Mother had been ailing for many months, and one should have realized it.
21.
a person of the speaker's kind; such as the speaker himself or herself: to press one's own claims.
22.
something or someone of the kind just mentioned: The portraits are fine ones. Your teachers this semester seem to be good ones.
23.
something available or referred to, especially in the immediate area: Here, take one—they're delicious. The bar is open, so have one on me!
I
24.
one and all everyone: They came, one and all, to welcome him home.
25.
one by one singly and successively: One by one the children married and moved away.
26.
one for the road road.


The thinking that one has only one meaning is word study fallacy.

God is none of the above.

 

[Noose]

John 20:22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Jesus indwelt them with the Holy Spirit while he was still on earth.

But did they receive the Holy spirit at that moment or Jesus had to go first?
John 16: 7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away.Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come toyou; but if I go, I will send Him to you.