Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
113
If we know the good that we should do, we should do it


We don’t go out to amass to ourselves numerous works. Especially if we are already letting our left hand know what our right hand is doing.


We just do what we should do.
James addressed those who saw their brothers physical needs and rather than providing what was in their ability to provide, they prayed
They should have acted and met the physical needs of those asking AND pray
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
113
yes, His whole letter is an attempt to get people to test their own faith, their patence, to take a look inside. Am I hearer only. Do I lack patience, Do I lack wisdom.

Its sad that people have twisted james to mean things james never even thought ot when he wrote his wonderful letter
Any debate about “works” is such a difficult thing.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yeah. It is.. Because there are two views.

Works are a result of salvation

Works earn or maintain salvation (salvation can be lost)

And its not just a small debate, they have been at war since cain and able.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,572
13,548
113
58
People can fall away from Jesus see Galatians 5:4; 1 Corinthians 10:12; 2 Peter 3:17. We are warned not to drift away, Hebrews 2:1, not to draw back, Hebrews 10:38; to hold on and stand firm, Hebrews 3:14, 1 Corinthians 15:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15. We are told how not to fall, 2 Peter 1:10, how not to be hardened, Hebrews 3:8,13.

God can throw people out, Matthew 22:13, blot people out, Exodus 32:32-33, remove your lampstand, Revelation 2:5, sign you a place with unbelievers, Luke 12:46, and cut you off, Romans 11:19-21. We can become defiled, Hebrews 12:15. Our lamps can burn out, Matthew 25:8. We can cause ourselves to have to have Christ formed in us again, Galatians 4:19.

We are told how to remain in Jesus, John 6:56, and if we do Jesus will remain in us, John 15:4. Jesus tells us of the good if we remain in him, John 15:5, and of the bad when we do not, John 15:6. Jesus exhorts us to remain in him, John 15:9, 10, Acts 14:22, and 1 John 2:24.
By the time you ignore context and fail to harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine, that's what these passages of scripture "on the surface" may "appear" to teach, but that is not the case. These same passages of scripture are commonly misinterpreted by works-salvationists who attend false religions and cults (including Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, Campbellism, Seventh-day Adventism etc..) to teach that really "saved" people really "lost their salvation," even though the Bible nowhere unequivocally teaches this.

In regards to falling away, in Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. In Matthew 26:31-46, we see that the disciples fell away when Jesus was arrested and Peter denied knowing Jesus three times! (Matthew 26:31-46) Yet this was only a temporary weak moment for 11 of the disciples and not a permanent decision, except for Judas Iscariot who was a devil! - (John 6:70-71) Those who permanently fall away were not genuine believers in the first place. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

In Galatians 5:4, the present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? :unsure: In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

In Hebrews 3:8, we read - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Heard the truth for a time, but then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer. Jude 1:5 - The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will be saved (future indicative) if you (future indicative) if you hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, really saved, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

In regards to Hebrews 10:38, in verse 39, we read - But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The NIV reads ..falls short of the grace of God. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. *Never saved.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
"eternally-gratefull" Well there goes mr holier than though again with his attacks against other people.. One must wonder why he is here and not out witnessingn in the streets. (He has been here more than DCON lately)
Talk about a hypocrite!
This makes me laugh. The group spend all their time hating anyone who they label deceived.
And they call them liars, evil and anything else.

I think one phrase was a battle for everlasting salvation. Thankfully I know this is Gods word
and His decision and authority to declare on His terms and in His way.

So using a term like hypocrite is meant to be cutting. In their eyes everyone is a hypocritical sinner
who can only point to Jesus and just put up with sinning until ones flesh is purged.

What is a common theme is trawling for ammunition, and if found it is like an explosion.
And those who claim to not be judgemental or condemning or full of animosity become these beasts
unleashed, with torrents of posts on the subject, trying desperately to get the response they want :love:

The army do this in training. They go up to a recruit and shout, swear and abuse them to see if they
can take it and they must not flinch or respond. They must learn to cut themselves off and stay resolute.

In the Lord this is similar, turning the other cheek, knowing these types of tactics do not change our
hearts, and our direction.

And the joke goes deeper. Hard hearts without empathy or getting alongside people, have about as
much impact as a wet sponge or ping pong ball. And this behaviour is about as non-christian as it gets
and just declares what their hearts of full of and why they need the Holy Spirit and love working in their
lives. Praise God for Jesus and His resurrection, Amen
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
The text says "some shall depart from THE FAITH" ("the faith" always refers to "that body of truth" as given in the NT [see also Hebrews 9:16-17])… not "depart from faith"...
Exactly.....the faith = system of teaching found in the word and NOT FAITH IN AND OF ITSELF.....
I will consider this as an OSAS point of view. But i will suggest that you humbly accept the word planted in you which can save you(James 1:19-27) and ..."all of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Philippians 3:15-16

Your FAITH should be IN THE TRUTH. Jesus is the TRUTH (John 14:6).

...Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Hebrews 11:1

...At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and DECEIVE many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, THE LOVE (see 2 John 1:6) of most will grow cold, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. ...For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. Matthew 24:10-14,24

Humble yourselves as little chidren and DO NOT CAUSE THE LITTLE ONES WHO BELIEVE IN HIM TO SIN.

...At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. “And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. Matthew 18:1-9

...Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others... Philippians 2:1-11

Again..."IF YOU REMAIN IN HIM, HE WILL REMAIN IN YOU."

...OBEY IT, AND REPENT...Revelations 3:1-6
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,572
13,548
113
58
I can prove with scripture where Campbell is wrong.
Both you and Campbell are wrong. You both have a difference in style, but are the same in substance in regards to works salvation.

That just is not true.
I ask you questions and tell you about scriptures, but you don't believe them and retain them and scriptures are tossed out and ignored by you.
We are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, but you say that is not true. You disregard multiple passages of scripture that make it clear we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modification" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..). You distort and pervert passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

That is not confessing with your mouth.
So you turn confessing with your mouth into an "additional requirement" to become saved "after" we believe the gospel? So does Campbell. Also, everyone who is handicapped/moot/cannot speak will remain lost according to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

Once again, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. *Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

Jesus says you can't say Jesus is your Lord if you haven't obeyed him.
Only those who truly have Jesus as their Lord go on to obey Him. Perverting the gospel and obeying a false religion is not obeying Jesus.

You have to confess and repent of your sins. No way around the Way.
Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ (Acts 20:21) and confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10). Campbellites don't get this right either.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Someone needs to look in the mirror. He attacks Decon, then when someone calls him out. He attacks that person

Its not all about you my friend..

There comes a time where you have to admit you are not innocent.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,572
13,548
113
58
If you stand firm to the end means what to you?
Just what it says. Standing firm to the end is a demonstration of genuine conversion and believers are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5) He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 1:8) Praise God! :)
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,399
6,738
113
Someone needs to look in the mirror. He attacks Decon, then when someone calls him out. He attacks that person

Its not all about you my friend..

There comes a time where you have to admit you are not innocent.
this is , in theory, a Bible discussion forum.

so, I do not get why when someone posts something, then another comments and/or questions it, instead of commenting back, or answering the question, they attack the other person.

if some just want to spout off about their opinions, start a facebook blog and promote yourself all you want.

if you come here, be ready to discuss.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
this is , in theory, a Bible discussion forum.

so, I do not get why when someone posts something, then another comments and/or questions it, instead of commenting back, or answering the question, they attack the other person.

if some just want to spout off about their opinions, start a facebook blog and promote yourself all you want.

if you come here, be ready to discuss.
Oh they will discuss, as long as you see things their way..
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
But I am afraid that just as Eve was DECEIVED by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be LED ASTRAY from your sincere and pure DEVOTION TO CHRIST. (see john 14:15-24 & luke 6:46) 2 Corinthians 11:3

Will those who have heard and read the bible and BELIEVED in what they have received and heard without the knowledge of such man made doctrines, referring to new believers or babes in Christ...be saved if we shall consider what OSAS teach?

...But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. For the THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NOT A MATTER OF TALK BUT OF POWER. 1 Corinthians 4:19-20

Why do you think that BELIEVERS were warned not to be DECEIVED?

...He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who HEARS THE WORD and at once RECEIVES IT with joy. But since he has NO ROOT, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly FALLS AWAY. The one who RECEIVED THE SEED that fell among the thorns is the man who HEARS THE WORD, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it UNFRUITFUL. But the one who RECEIVED THE SEED that fell on good soil is the man who HEARS THE WORD and UNDERSTANDS IT. He PRODUCES A CROP, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

The Parable of the Weeds
...Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in HIS FIELD. But while everyone was sleeping, HIS ENEMY came and SOWED WEEDS AMONG THE WHEATS, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’” Matthew 13:11-30

Both the weeds and wheat grow in the same FIELD.

...The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and THEY WILL WEED OUT OF HIS KINGDOM everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 13:38-43

Who will the angels WEED OUT of GOD'S KINGDOM? Aren't they supposed to belong to GOD'S kingdom first before they can be weeded out of it?

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and MANY FALSE PROPHETS WILL APPEAR AND DECEIVE MANY PEOPLE. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,(becoming DISOBEDIENT, because LOVE IS WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS) but he who STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:10-14

....“I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF MY GOD. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD; OBEY IT, and REPENT. But if you do not WAKE UP, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelation 3:1-3

The church is the BODY OF CHRIST whom He will SAVE. Ephesians 5:23 WEEDED OUT OF every wickedness

So to those who reject and nullify God's word and refuse to take heed of God's warnings about the appearance of the DECEIVER with his FALSE CHRISTS, PROPHETS AND .TEACHERS, the LIARS who do not have the TRUTH in them...

...DO NOT BE ARROGANT BUT BE AFRAID… For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF. Romans 11:21-22

...The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be CUT DOWN AND THROWN INTO THE FIRE.” Luke 3:7-9
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
this is , in theory, a Bible discussion forum.
so, I do not get why when someone posts something, then another comments and/or questions it, instead of commenting back, or answering the question, they attack the other person.
if some just want to spout off about their opinions, start a facebook blog and promote yourself all you want.
if you come here, be ready to discuss.
You are right. This is a bible discussion forum.
Or is it a propoganda forum with an acceptable view or you are deceived.
I have proposed that there are different interpretations of scripture, to then be told I was wrong.
Or if I use the word sin, and say specifically how it is used, to then be told I am wrong and not applying
it rightly, or some other idea.

The force of a position, its logic, how it is presented can be hard to take.
This is the danger of open discussions. And the bigger the challenge the more some have to use abuse.

It is why I love Jesus. Open statements that the meaning grows in your heart over time.
Eternal realities that enter your mind and spring off in infinite directions.

"I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me"

Wow. Jesus, His life, His attitudes, His example is the way. He is the ultimate truth that pulls everything
else together, and through Him comes life, overflowing, running down and brimming over.
Thank you Jesus that you are our wildest dream, our fulfilment beyond expectation, the foundation of
heaven and our life and freedom in Eternity, Amen.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
Attacking

I wish I had the luxury of such a thing.
I reflect back what is thrown at me. I do love those who are doing everything.
And I want to know them, not the parts they want to declare but it all.
Not so that I can exploit, but so that I can minister and brings Gods love and support into their lives.

We have a shattered world, and I mean shattered. I hear peoples life stories and I weep.
Now this may sound dramatic, but they are truly tragic.

But through this all we have something so much more powerful, Jesus and His love expressed in our
lives. We are Christ manifested on earth, His hands and feet, His eyes and care.

Now I am slow, some would say toooo slow. But I know how to be open hearted and to let who
I am be who I show. This is not pretend, it is a choice, a belief in Christ we are to be the same from
the surface to our innermost being, cleansed pure and Holy ( a work in progress )

So Bud and TT says I use flowery words. "Flowery". What they mean is emotions are expressed and
they mean yuck. Oh that hurts, I must now shuffle away ..... Except no. Jesus and the cross is open
arms taking it all and forgiving, though love means hurt, pain and exploitation from the past, in Christ
it means eternal safety and recognition. I know the defence we grow up with, and the deep betrayal
and loneliness, depression that can kill you, desperation like a cry in the darkest hole imaginable, yet
this is where Jesus went, and found me, and took me home.

And that is Christ. The saviour who took me home.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
By the time you ignore context and fail to harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine, that's what these passages of scripture "on the surface" may "appear" to teach, but that is not the case. These same passages of scripture are commonly misinterpreted by works-salvationists who attend false religions and cults (including Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, Campbellism, Seventh-day Adventism etc..) to teach that really "saved" people really "lost their salvation," even though the Bible nowhere unequivocally teaches this.

In regards to falling away, in Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. In Matthew 26:31-46, we see that the disciples fell away when Jesus was arrested and Peter denied knowing Jesus three times! (Matthew 26:31-46) Yet this was only a temporary weak moment for 11 of the disciples and not a permanent decision, except for Judas Iscariot who was a devil! - (John 6:70-71) Those who permanently fall away were not genuine believers in the first place. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

In Galatians 5:4, the present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? :unsure: In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

In Hebrews 3:8, we read - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Heard the truth for a time, but then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer. Jude 1:5 - The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
But I am afraid that just as Eve was DECEIVED by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be LED ASTRAY from your sincere and pure DEVOTION TO CHRIST. (see john 14:15-24 & luke 6:46) 2 Corinthians 11:3

Will those who have heard and read the bible and BELIEVED in what they have received and heard without the knowledge of such man made doctrines, referring to new believers or babes in Christ...be saved if we shall consider what OSAS teach?

...But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only HOW THESE ARROGANT PEOPLE ARE TALKING, but what power they have. For the THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NOT A MATTER OF TALK BUT OF POWER. 1 Corinthians 4:19-20

Why do you think that BELIEVERS were warned not to be DECEIVED?

...He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who HEARS THE WORD and at once RECEIVES IT with joy. But since he has NO ROOT, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly FALLS AWAY. The one who RECEIVED THE SEED that fell among the thorns is the man who HEARS THE WORD, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it UNFRUITFUL. But the one who RECEIVED THE SEED that fell on good soil is the man who HEARS THE WORD and UNDERSTANDS IT. He PRODUCES A CROP, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Matthew 13:11-23

The Parable of the Weeds
...Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in HIS FIELD. But while everyone was sleeping, HIS ENEMY came and SOWED WEEDS AMONG THE WHEATS, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’” Matthew 13:11-30 Both the weeds and wheat grow in the same FIELD. ...The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and THEY WILL WEED OUT OF HIS KINGDOM everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 13:38-43

Who will the angels WEED OUT of GOD'S KINGDOM? Aren't they supposed to belong to GOD'S kingdom first before they can be weeded out of it?

...At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and MANY FALSE PROPHETS WILL APPEAR AND DECEIVE MANY PEOPLE. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,(becoming DISOBEDIENT, because LOVE IS WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS) but he who STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:10-14

....“I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF MY GOD. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD; OBEY IT, and REPENT. But if you do not WAKE UP, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelation 3:1-3

The church is the BODY OF CHRIST whom He will SAVE. Ephesians 5:23 WEEDED OUT OF every wickedness

So to those who reject and nullify God's word and refuse to take heed of God's warnings about the appearance of the DECEIVER with his FALSE CHRISTS, PROPHETS AND .TEACHERS, the LIARS who do not have the TRUTH in them...

...DO NOT BE ARROGANT BUT BE AFRAID… For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF. Romans 11:21-22

...The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be CUT DOWN AND THROWN INTO THE FIRE.” Luke 3:7-9
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
[…] and ..."all of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Philippians 3:15-16
[quoting from Anderson's Appendix]

"Appendix 4 - Philippians 3:8-14 [for CONTEXT]

"PHILIPPIANS 3:8-141 NOTE CHAPTER 7

"IF the commonly received exegesis of Philippians 3:8-14 be correct, we are faced by the astounding fact that the author of the Epistle to the Romans and of the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians -- the Apostle who was in a peculiar sense entrusted with the supreme revelation of grace -- announced when nearing the close of his ministry that the resurrection was not, as he had been used to teach, a blessing which Divine grace assured to all believers in Christ, but a prize to be won by the sustained efforts of a life of wholly exceptional saintship.

"Nor is this all. In the same Epistle he has already said, "To me to live is Christ, and to have died is gain"; whereas, ex hypothesi, it now appears that his chief aim in life was to earn a right to the resurrection; and that death, instead of bringing gain, would have cut him off before he had reached the standard of saintship needed to secure that prize! For his words are explicit, "not as though I had already attained."

"Here was one who was "not a whit behind the chiefest Apostles"; who excelled them all in labours and sufferings for his Lord, and in the "visions and revelations" accorded to him; whose prolonged ministry, moreover, was accredited by "mighty signs and wonders by the power of the Spirit of God." And yet, "being now such an one as Paul the aged," [it is wrongly suggested] he was in doubt whether he should have part in that resurrection which he had taught all his pagan Corinthian converts to hope for: for to them it was he wrote the words, "we shall all be changed."

"Such is the exposition of the Apostle's teaching in many a standard commentary. And yet the passage which is thus perverted reaches its climax in the words, "Our citizenship is in heaven, from whence we are looking for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation that it may be conformed to the body of His glory."

" "Our citizenship is in heaven" here is the clew to the teaching of the whole passage. The truth to which his words refer is more clearly stated in Ephesians 2:6 - God has "quickened us together with Christ, and raised us up with Him, and made us sit with Him in the heavenly places in Christ." More clearly still is it given in Colossians 3:1-3: "If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is seated on the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on earth. For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God."

"Ephesians and Colossians, be it remembered, were written at the same period of his ministry as Philippians; and in the light of these Scriptures we can read this chapter aright. To "win Christ" (ver. 8), or to apprehend, or lay hold of, that for which he had been laid hold of, or apprehended (ver. 12); or in other words, to realize practically in his life on earth what was true of him doctrinally as to his standing before God in heaven -- this is what he was reaching toward, and what, he says, he had not "already attained."

"The "high calling" of ver. 14 is interpreted by some to mean Christ's calling up His own to meet Him in the air (a blessing assured to all "who are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord"); but this is not in keeping with the plain words -- God's high calling in Christ Jesus, i.e. what God has called us (made us) to be in Christ. [in the here and now!]

"If this passage refers to the literal resurrection, then the words "not as though I had already attained must mean that, while here on earth, and before the Lord's Coming, the Apostle hoped either to undergo the change of ver. 21, or else to win some sort of saintship diploma, or certificate, to ensure his being raised at the Coming. These alternatives are inexorable; and they only need to be stated to ensure their rejection.

"One word more. If the Apostle Paul, after such a life of saintship and service, was in doubt as to his part in the resurrection, no one of us, unless he be the proudest of Pharisees or the blindest of fools, will dream of attaining it. In fact we shall dismiss the subject from our minds."

--Sir Robert Anderson, Forgotten Truths, Appendix 4, pgs 145-147

http://articles.ochristian.com/article12455.shtml

[end quoting; bold, underline, and bracket mine]


[...]
...At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and DECEIVE many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, THE LOVE (see 2 John 1:6) of most will grow cold, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. ...For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. Matthew 24:10-14,24
These are in the context of the future specific time period we commonly call "the tribulation period" (which time period LEADS UP TO the "promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth), and "the beginning of birth PANGS" (aka "the SEALS" of Rev6 [the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" being 1Th5:2-3/Matt24:4/Mk13:5 - G5100 - tis 'A CERTAIN ONE']) ALL commence FOLLOWING the Rapture of "the Church which is His body" (when thereafter "the DOTL" WILL "be present" to unfold upon the earth, with its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of those 7 years [2Th2:9a=Dan9:27a(26)--"whose COMING"/"the prince THAT SHALL COME"--ALL 7 years are covered in the 2Th2 passage, just as it is also in Dan9:27: its BEGINNING (v.9a), its MIDDLE (v.4), its END (v.8b) in 2Th2]).

The reason many misapply this passage is because of [how one author put it], "yet not a syllable about the real position of the Church--its calling, its standing, its hopes, its privileges!" [CH Mackintosh].

[in view of this, check out Ephesians 1:20-23 WHEN]
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,572
13,548
113
58
The text says "some shall depart from THE FAITH" ("the faith" always refers to "that body of truth" as given in the NT [see also Hebrews 9:16-17])… not "depart from faith"...
Amen! 1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

The words "the faith" (Gr. tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions, which does not mean they were previously born again. The beginning of a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church began to come into existence in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids it's clergy to marry. This same church has other doctrines of demons, such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, Mary's perpetual virginity etc..
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions, which does not mean they were previously born again.
Agreed! This is indeed the sense of that text [and context]. Christendom, if you will, but not "the Church which is His body". Those who "come in His name" but who are not vitally connected with Him (by faith in Him and His finished work [for salvation]).
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,633
113
Works salvation is much like going to your cell, then you get a crew of guys come to your cell and try to extort you.
Then someone shows up and says "hey, i got your back homie". For a week you are at ease, but then next week, the same guy who said "i got your back" is coming to your cell and says "its time to pay up boy, hand over them ramen noodels, or.."

So now at the end of the day, you got no rest at all!