Some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God
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if you haven't listened to everyone else, you won't listen to me. I just pointed out the obvious parallel between your screen name, and your interesting belief.
No one has answered Matt 16: 27-28 because if you are a futurist there is no answer for it. It disproves all futurist positions. Here are 7 passages used by Jesus in the synoptics that prove the second coming was in 70 A.D:
1. Matt 16: 27-28 - Jesus said people standing there would not die before they saw Him coming with His kingdom. Also, that He would reward every man according to his deeds when He came with His kingdom. This did not happen at the Transfiguration or Pentecost or anything else the futurist tries to dream up to explain this passage away.
2. Mark 8: 38 & 9: 1 - Jesus said people standing there would not die before they saw Him coming with His kingdom. Also, that He would be ashamed of anyone who was ashamed of Him when He came with His kingdom. This did not happen at the Transfiguration or Pentecost or anything else the futurist tries to dream up to explain this passage away.
3. Luke 9: 26-27 - Same explanation as #2
4. Matt 24: 34 - "ALL these things will happen to this generation." That includes His second coming in verses 30 & 31. It is not a "final generation" as the futurist falsely claims. All 22 times Jesus uses the word "generation" outside of the Olivet discourse it refers to His generation. There are no exceptions. Don't take my word for it. Research it yourself.
5. Mark 13: 30 - Same explanation as #4
6. Luke 21: 32 - Same explanation as # 4
7. Matt 10: 23 - Jesus testifies in verses 17 & 18 that the disciples will be brought before "councils, synagogues, governors, kings and the Gentiles" and will not have gone through all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
These are 7 passages, all from Jesus' own lips, that all say the same thing. The second coming was in 70 A.D.
Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other, Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
What Jesus says is, working for money and serving God is not possible. Yes I am saying if you work for a paycheck and you say you serve God, you are disobeying what Jesus says. Jesus says...in Luke 12:22-34
Do Not Worry or Be Fearful
And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what he shall eat; neither for the body, what he shall put on. The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take thought for the rest?
To explain Luke 12:22-26
The ravens don’t have jobs or houses, yet God provides everything they need, aren’t you worth much more than these creatures? And who can add more years to themselves? Or there life? Why worry about such things when you can’t even do anything about the least of all these? (Food, shelter, clothes).
Luke 12:27-31 (Continued)
Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and tomorrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. But rather seek first the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
I believe Jesus makes it very clear on what we need to do as Christians, stop serving money (stop working for money, quit your job) stop worrying where your going to get your next meal, or where you are going to sleep, Jesus says the world worry’s about such things, you are not supposed to be a part of this world. Stop relying on money, using money is ok, but working for it is not. Stop putting your faith in a worldly system and preach the Gospel full time, listen to Jesus.
The second to last verse Luke 12:33
Sell what you have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
Do you see what Jesus is saying? Every single Christian did what Jesus commands. There was no special person who didn’t sell all and leave everything, preaching the gospel 24/7. Your job is to preach his word, and he gives you the essentials you need. 1 Timothy 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
Assumption #1- Jesus was never a carpenter the only verse you can see is his father being a carpenter in Mark 6:3. Jesus started preaching when he was 12 Year’s old according to scripture, in Luke 42-49. He never served (worked for) money, he did use money though, his treasurer was Judas (the one who betrayed him).
Definition of Forsaketh according to Jesus is found in all the gospels, but I am going to use Mark 10:17-21 for this claim.
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
The definition is clear consistently through all 4 of the gospels. The Word of God has spoken and commands this as a requirement to inherit eternal life with him. Jesus Christ has the ultimate authority in the Bible, the Old Testament does not teach us how to live as Christ did, that is why the New Testament (Jesus Christ’s teachings more importantly) applies to us, hence forth New Testament. Notice Jesus told him he LACKED one thing, now you can say this only applies to the rich man, but that is a lie. It applies to everyone that truly loves Jesus. In the rest of the scripture, right around Luke 14:33 Jesus addressed the entire multitude of people, rich and poor, women, children all kinds of people. Here it is.
-The Cost of Discipleship- Luke 14:25-27
And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Reflecting of Luke 14:33-Acts 2:45-47 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man hath need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Reflecting of Luke 14:33 again, Matthew 13:44-46
-The Treasure and the Goodly Pearl-
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
These are the commands of Jesus in a parable, the man sold everything to inherit eternal life. Now I have heard the arguments against what Jesus commands, the biggest one is people want to point to Paul and say he has a higher authority than God in the flesh and they say, “Paul worked as a tent maker!” So sense he worked for money it’s ok. Really? I would recommend that you only follow Jesus and what he says. But let’s take a look at this argument.
Acts 18:3-5
And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by there occupation they were tentmakers. And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
Paul worked at making tents with a couple other Jews while preaching the gospel, but reading it in the entire context, two other disciples came along and he was pricked in his spirit and decided to leave to preach the Gospel full time once again. Now this passage does not say he labored (worked, served) for money, all it says was he was creating tents, even if he did work for money, he soon told his fellow tent makers that Jesus was Christ and they rejected him, so he left to a brothers house to tell him the good news instead and was received there.
Another passage of scripture people use as a excuse to not obey Jesus is....
1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
This is taking scripture out of context, the title of this section of verses is called...
-Provisions for Widows-
Verses 5:1-10 the last verse says “Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she has longed strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
Let’s compare Jesus teachings with 1 Timothy 5:10, then we can understand what 5:8 means.
“Brought up children”...- Matthew 18:5 “And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.”’ “If she hath lodged strangers”...Luke 14:13 “But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind. (The first Christians utilized money to rent a place or stayed at someone else’s place if invited in. Matthew 10:14). “If she have washed the saints’ feet”-Matthew 22:32 “But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren” (I believe this applies to every follower of Jesus, that we should strengthen each other). “If she have relieved the afflicted,”...Mark 16:17 “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues.”
This explains that Timothy was simply obeying Jesus Christ’s commands, including the widows. Now 1 Timothy 5:8 is saying work as in working to build Jesus Christ’s kingdom, working serving Jesus and obeying his commands. Not serving money. When you deny the faith, what it is really saying is your denying that God will provide all your needs when preaching the word full time without having money or anything else for that matter. If you don’t have faith in what Jesus says, how in the world do you believe he’s going to resurrect you from the dead? There is no room for Luke warm Christians. You either listen to Jesus or you will be grinded to powder. Jesus says they would reject the corner stone of his teachings. This is essentiall and required by every follower of Christ.
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other, Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
What Jesus says is, working for money and serving God is not possible. Yes I am saying if you work for a paycheck and you say you serve God, you are disobeying what Jesus says. Jesus says...in Luke 12:22-34
Do Not Worry or Be Fearful
And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what he shall eat; neither for the body, what he shall put on. The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take thought for the rest?
To explain Luke 12:22-26
The ravens don’t have jobs or houses, yet God provides everything they need, aren’t you worth much more than these creatures? And who can add more years to themselves? Or there life? Why worry about such things when you can’t even do anything about the least of all these? (Food, shelter, clothes).
Luke 12:27-31 (Continued)
Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and tomorrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. But rather seek first the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
I believe Jesus makes it very clear on what we need to do as Christians, stop serving money (stop working for money, quit your job) stop worrying where your going to get your next meal, or where you are going to sleep, Jesus says the world worry’s about such things, you are not supposed to be a part of this world. Stop relying on money, using money is ok, but working for it is not. Stop putting your faith in a worldly system and preach the Gospel full time, listen to Jesus.
The second to last verse Luke 12:33
Sell what you have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
Do you see what Jesus is saying? Every single Christian did what Jesus commands. There was no special person who didn’t sell all and leave everything, preaching the gospel 24/7. Your job is to preach his word, and he gives you the essentials you need. 1 Timothy 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
Assumption #1- Jesus was never a carpenter the only verse you can see is his father being a carpenter in Mark 6:3. Jesus started preaching when he was 12 Year’s old according to scripture, in Luke 42-49. He never served (worked for) money, he did use money though, his treasurer was Judas (the one who betrayed him).
Definition of Forsaketh according to Jesus is found in all the gospels, but I am going to use Mark 10:17-21 for this claim.
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
The definition is clear consistently through all 4 of the gospels. The Word of God has spoken and commands this as a requirement to inherit eternal life with him. Jesus Christ has the ultimate authority in the Bible, the Old Testament does not teach us how to live as Christ did, that is why the New Testament (Jesus Christ’s teachings more importantly) applies to us, hence forth New Testament. Notice Jesus told him he LACKED one thing, now you can say this only applies to the rich man, but that is a lie. It applies to everyone that truly loves Jesus. In the rest of the scripture, right around Luke 14:33 Jesus addressed the entire multitude of people, rich and poor, women, children all kinds of people. Here it is.
-The Cost of Discipleship- Luke 14:25-27
And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Reflecting of Luke 14:33-Acts 2:45-47 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man hath need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Reflecting of Luke 14:33 again, Matthew 13:44-46
-The Treasure and the Goodly Pearl-
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
These are the commands of Jesus in a parable, the man sold everything to inherit eternal life. Now I have heard the arguments against what Jesus commands, the biggest one is people want to point to Paul and say he has a higher authority than God in the flesh and they say, “Paul worked as a tent maker!” So sense he worked for money it’s ok. Really? I would recommend that you only follow Jesus and what he says. But let’s take a look at this argument.
Acts 18:3-5
And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by there occupation they were tentmakers. And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
Paul worked at making tents with a couple other Jews while preaching the gospel, but reading it in the entire context, two other disciples came along and he was pricked in his spirit and decided to leave to preach the Gospel full time once again. Now this passage does not say he labored (worked, served) for money, all it says was he was creating tents, even if he did work for money, he soon told his fellow tent makers that Jesus was Christ and they rejected him, so he left to a brothers house to tell him the good news instead and was received there.
Another passage of scripture people use as a excuse to not obey Jesus is....
1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
This is taking scripture out of context, the title of this section of verses is called...
-Provisions for Widows-
Verses 5:1-10 the last verse says “Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she has longed strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
Let’s compare Jesus teachings with 1 Timothy 5:10, then we can understand what 5:8 means.
“Brought up children”...- Matthew 18:5 “And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.”’ “If she hath lodged strangers”...Luke 14:13 “But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind. (The first Christians utilized money to rent a place or stayed at someone else’s place if invited in. Matthew 10:14). “If she have washed the saints’ feet”-Matthew 22:32 “But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren” (I believe this applies to every follower of Jesus, that we should strengthen each other). “If she have relieved the afflicted,”...Mark 16:17 “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues.”
This explains that Timothy was simply obeying Jesus Christ’s commands, including the widows. Now 1 Timothy 5:8 is saying work as in working to build Jesus Christ’s kingdom, working serving Jesus and obeying his commands. Not serving money. When you deny the faith, what it is really saying is your denying that God will provide all your needs when preaching the word full time without having money or anything else for that matter. If you don’t have faith in what Jesus says, how in the world do you believe he’s going to resurrect you from the dead? There is no room for Luke warm Christians. You either listen to Jesus or you will be grinded to powder. Jesus says they would reject the corner stone of his teachings. This is essentiall and required by every follower of Christ.
Just go back to the first page an you'll find plenty who've already debunked your theory before you even got here.
I've been through all the posts in this thread. None of them answered the 7 passages I presented in post #203. The only explanations offered were the transfiguration and that Matt 16: 27 and Matt 16: 28 are 2 different events. Both of those I refuted using the Scripture. The futurists have no answer for those 7 passages because Jesus clearly taught He was coming back in His generation.
I understand you disagree and you are entitled to your opinion just like I am entitled to mine.
It has not happened at all. We are still in these bodies of death.
Those who did walk by faith, by faith (believing him not seen) saw him who remains without form . The generation is the generation of Christ the blessed generation as a new creation . The generation of Adam or evil generation they was walked by sight . Its what a cursed generation that has "no faith" does, do not believe in a God they cannot see..
Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Matthew 12:34 "O generation of vipers", how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
The second coming and the end of the world will come on the last day
The last day happened in 70 A.D. It was the last day of the Old Covenant age. Why do you think there is a last day of the world? There are no Scriptures that say this world will end unless a person misinterprets them.
Here are a bunch of Scriptures that say this earth, along with the sun and moon, will endure forever:
Psalm 104: 5, "You who laid the foundations of the earth, so that it should not be moved forever."
Psalm 78: 69, "And He built His sanctuary like the heights, like the earth which He has established forever."
Ecclesiastes 1: 4, "One generation passes away, and another generation comes; but the earth abides forever."
Psalm 89: 34-37, "My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David: his seed shall endure forever, And his throne as the sun before Me; it shall be established forever like the moon,
Even like the faithful witness in the sky.”
Jeremiah 31: 35-36, "Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for a light by day, the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who disturbs the sea, and its waves roar (The Lord of hosts is His name): “If those ordinances depart from before Me, says the Lord, then the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a nation before Me forever.”
The Bible says that there is no end to this universe or world. It also says there is no end to Christ's kingdom. If there is no end to this universe, or this world, or Christ's kingdom, then how can it have a last day?
The last day is a reference to the end of the Old Covenant age in 70 A.D. That is when the resurrection on the last day occurred according to Scripture.
You know what even though you went from orthodoxy (partial preterist amill) to heresy (full preterism) you are still a likeable guy. I've insulted you many-a times and you still havent insulted me back. Its quite fascinating.If I had 5 bucks for every time a futurist insulted me for my eschatological views I would be able to buy myself a lot of nice dinners by now.
I notice most of the time, like this one, it is an emotional reaction with no Scripture presented. How about accepting what Scripture says instead of rejecting it because you don't like it.
What a character!
Now just move away from the full preterism camp and we can hug it out (nohomo)
I can distill my inquiries to but one single question for you:If I had 5 bucks for every time a futurist insulted me for my eschatological views I would be able to buy myself a lot of nice dinners by now.
I notice most of the time, like this one, it is an emotional reaction with no Scripture presented. How about accepting what Scripture says instead of rejecting it because you don't like it.
What is your estimate for the time required (starting now) for all sin, corruption and Satanic influence in this world to end completely?
Thank you.
I appreciate the compliment about being a likeable guy. Thank you.
Would you consider partial preterism orthodox? How about amill/postmill? I think you would since it can be documented that they have both in the church for a long time.
What do partial preterists believe? That all prophecy is fulfilled except the second coming, resurrection and judgment and new heavens and earth. A full preterist believes everything is fulfilled so they only differ on those 3 things from a partial preterist.
What does amill/postmill believe? That the millennium is now, that when Jesus returns the resurrection and judgment happens and He creates a new heaven and earth. If you move the millennium to the first century, during the apostolic generation, the full preterist believes that Jesus came back at the end of it (just like the amill/postmill) and that at His second coming the resurrection and judgment took place and the new heavens and earth began (just like the amill/postmill).
Full-preterism is orthodox. It is the same timeline as amill/postmill but restricted to the first century and not still going on like the amill/postmill believes. When you combine partial preterism with amill/postmill you get full preterism. So if they are orthodox then how can full preterism not be?
The biggest difference is that the full preterist correctly recognizes that the new heavens and earth is not a literal place but Christ's kingdom and His church. Many "orthodox" theologians have recognized this like John Owen, Sir Isaac Newton and Charles Spurgeon to name a few.
Please refer to my post #208. The Bible tells us whether this world will end or not.
You have a problem. A rather insurmountable one. The bible has no prophecy anywhere that indicates a date of 70AD for anything at all. Let alone the end of the age.
I love Charles Spurgeon! Can you give me the quote? I have read quotes from him and Spurgeon was a premillennialist if I recall correctly!
The planet might not end, but what will end is SIN and DEATH.
Those seem rather present!
Locutus just linked it for you in the post #219 above. Spurgeon correctly recognized that the new heavens and earth are Christ's kingdom and not a literal place.
If you would like another link to verify what Spurgeon said there is also this one. http://archive.spurgeon.org/sermons/2211.php