Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I do enjoy pretty things, too! 
Thanks for your reply, it helped me understand what you were saying.
Interesting.... I really wasn't familiar with Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) until joining CC.
Do you feel OSAS is a corrupting doctrine because it seems like a "false sense" of security and you're concerned that people might fall into the trap of thinking they're saved but are not?
Sorry if people are not considering your Matthew 7:24-25 verses about two foundations. I'll consider them....
I looked at the whole story leading up to the two foundations. These are my thoughts:
Matthew 7:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
This is kind of scary because they are calling Yeshua/Jesus "Lord" yet, they do not get to enter the kingdom of heaven. So, it appears it is VERY IMPORTANT to understand what He means by "he that does the will of My Father in heaven."
What is the "Will of the Father" in regards to entering the kingdom of heaven?
I think the answer is found in John 3:16 and also, the conversation between Yeshua and Nicodemus because the Father's Will is always accomplished with His Word and His Spirit.
The Blood of Yeshua/Jesus saves us from our sins by washing them away completely;
The Body of Yeshua/Jesus is the human fulfillment of the Law which is His Righteousness that He gives us;
Then, we get the Promise of the Father - The Spirit of Truth - The Holy Spirit. Yeshua/Jesus baptizes us with it. The Holy Spirit indwells us, seals us and we become born again - of water and Spirit. The washing of the water of the Word and the Holy Spirit.
Some might say the Water Baptism and the Holy Spirit Baptism.
John 3:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:1-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
-----------------------------------
Matthew 7:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
It is the Father's Will that both - His Word and His Spirit indwell us. We cannot do the Father's Will without both - Yeshua/Jesus AND the Holy Spirit.
Otherwise, we're just doing a bunch of 'good works' according to human reasoning that are not the Father's Will. These are "works of iniquity." These works just feed our ego/flesh and do nothing for the kingdom of heaven.
When you refer to adhering to the conditions of eternal security, you define these conditions as being:
- Believe in Jesus and
- Obey His (Jesus) word.
I think the problem is that when you say "obey His word," it sounds as if you are saying that "works are required by us to complete Yeshua/Jesus saving us," which is not what scripture says.
Yeshua/Jesus (as all authority of the Word of God and with all the power of God which is the Holy Spirit, without measure) completed every work necessary for our salvation.
Now, the Father wants us to receive what has been done for us.
He wants us to be cleansed from sin with Yeshua/Jesus' Blood, imputed with Yeshua/Jesus' Righteousness by His Body and full of the Holy Spirit - being born again so, we can walk in His authority and power making us able to do the Father's Will and by so doing, enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 7:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
So, we need to hear the Word of God and do it! But, remember we can't do it without the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, we're just doing good works according to the flesh which is sand. We want to do works that are according to the Father's Will, which require His Word and His Spirit.
Well, I wrote a long post. I hope you read it. I hope someone reads it........lol! I know I often jump over long posts......lol!
Thanks for your reply, it helped me understand what you were saying. Interesting.... I really wasn't familiar with Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) until joining CC.
Do you feel OSAS is a corrupting doctrine because it seems like a "false sense" of security and you're concerned that people might fall into the trap of thinking they're saved but are not?
Sorry if people are not considering your Matthew 7:24-25 verses about two foundations. I'll consider them....
I looked at the whole story leading up to the two foundations. These are my thoughts:
Matthew 7:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
This is kind of scary because they are calling Yeshua/Jesus "Lord" yet, they do not get to enter the kingdom of heaven. So, it appears it is VERY IMPORTANT to understand what He means by "he that does the will of My Father in heaven."
What is the "Will of the Father" in regards to entering the kingdom of heaven?
I think the answer is found in John 3:16 and also, the conversation between Yeshua and Nicodemus because the Father's Will is always accomplished with His Word and His Spirit.
The Blood of Yeshua/Jesus saves us from our sins by washing them away completely;
The Body of Yeshua/Jesus is the human fulfillment of the Law which is His Righteousness that He gives us;
Then, we get the Promise of the Father - The Spirit of Truth - The Holy Spirit. Yeshua/Jesus baptizes us with it. The Holy Spirit indwells us, seals us and we become born again - of water and Spirit. The washing of the water of the Word and the Holy Spirit.
Some might say the Water Baptism and the Holy Spirit Baptism.
John 3:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:1-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
-----------------------------------
Matthew 7:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
It is the Father's Will that both - His Word and His Spirit indwell us. We cannot do the Father's Will without both - Yeshua/Jesus AND the Holy Spirit.
Otherwise, we're just doing a bunch of 'good works' according to human reasoning that are not the Father's Will. These are "works of iniquity." These works just feed our ego/flesh and do nothing for the kingdom of heaven.
When you refer to adhering to the conditions of eternal security, you define these conditions as being:
- Believe in Jesus and
- Obey His (Jesus) word.
I think the problem is that when you say "obey His word," it sounds as if you are saying that "works are required by us to complete Yeshua/Jesus saving us," which is not what scripture says.
Yeshua/Jesus (as all authority of the Word of God and with all the power of God which is the Holy Spirit, without measure) completed every work necessary for our salvation.
Now, the Father wants us to receive what has been done for us.
He wants us to be cleansed from sin with Yeshua/Jesus' Blood, imputed with Yeshua/Jesus' Righteousness by His Body and full of the Holy Spirit - being born again so, we can walk in His authority and power making us able to do the Father's Will and by so doing, enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 7:24-27 King James Version (KJV)
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
So, we need to hear the Word of God and do it! But, remember we can't do it without the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, we're just doing good works according to the flesh which is sand. We want to do works that are according to the Father's Will, which require His Word and His Spirit.
Well, I wrote a long post. I hope you read it. I hope someone reads it........lol!
I know I often jump over long posts......lol!
But it's 1 am here and I'd like to give it some attention.
I think we pretty much agree.
Tomorrow.
Good night.
I have to wonder at this connection heart and salvation.
We are brought into communion through conviction, repentance and faith.
Through repentance we are cleansed and purified.
Salvation started the process, so saying the end saves us, seems the wrong emphasis.
We are saved or living eternal life in walking with Jesus.
We are not rejected because our hearts are polluted.
I can see how we can find salvation, our communion, and then destroy this by our choice
to walk in evil and not the Spirit. Saying we are saved by having the heart condition seems
to ignore the standing in faith and forgiveness our sins. I am open to a different perspective
but this is how it appears to me
We are brought into communion through conviction, repentance and faith.
Through repentance we are cleansed and purified.
Salvation started the process, so saying the end saves us, seems the wrong emphasis.
We are saved or living eternal life in walking with Jesus.
We are not rejected because our hearts are polluted.
I can see how we can find salvation, our communion, and then destroy this by our choice
to walk in evil and not the Spirit. Saying we are saved by having the heart condition seems
to ignore the standing in faith and forgiveness our sins. I am open to a different perspective
but this is how it appears to me
Who are we to say? The tests given by John are obeying Jesus and loving ones brother.
Rejecting obedience and rejection ones brother in faith, seems to be what is going on.
So by definition
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4
Seems brutal, but then better be said today than from the throne on judgement day.
Rejecting obedience and rejection ones brother in faith, seems to be what is going on.
So by definition
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4
Seems brutal, but then better be said today than from the throne on judgement day.
This sounds like the gnostics who claimed to hold secrete knowledge.
All the people I have heard say this, turn out to be slightly nuts.
You were doing so well
And it strikes me the more we grow in the Lord, the more we see which others may not see
quite so well. But unfortunately this does not make us better, just encourages us to move deeper.
All the people I have heard say this, turn out to be slightly nuts.
You were doing so well
And it strikes me the more we grow in the Lord, the more we see which others may not see
quite so well. But unfortunately this does not make us better, just encourages us to move deeper.
-
2
- Show all
