Creation of universe

User46952 · Mar 12, 2019

If God created the universe in six ordinary days, then it adds upto nearly 6000 years from today. If so, how do we see the stars which are beyond 6000 light years? If we see a star which is 10000 light years away means, the star exists for at least 10000 years. If the age of universe is 6000 years, then it would take another 4000 years to see that star. Any thoughts??

RoboOp · Mar 12, 2019

That's why God said "let there be light" from the get go -- on Day 1, before there was even any sun or moon or stars. As you point out, it was necessary to put all the light beams in place before putting in place any of the actual light sources.

tourist · Mar 12, 2019

User46952 said:

Based on the known speed of light some of the stars are over a billion years old. Perhaps the speed of light at the time of creation was astronomically faster than it is today and that the current speed of life verses the original speed of light is in indication that the speed of light is in the process of slowing down. You have raised in interesting point. Observing the stars in the universe is like using a time machine, what you are really seeing is the light from light years away and not how it was at the time the light left the star. Some of the stars in the universe that are visible today probably don't even exist anymore.

AxeElf · Mar 12, 2019

The plain and obvious answer, of course, is that the Bible is not a science or history book, and the universe is much more than 6,000 years old. Try 14 billion years, and suddenly everything makes a lot more sense without having to postulate things like light moving faster than light and other such nonsense.

RoboOp said:

Great, now I have to clean coffee off of my computer screen.

Nebuchadnezzer · Mar 12, 2019

User46952 said:

Both young-earth (calendar-day) creationists and old-earth (day-age) creationists consider the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God. Both believe the Genesis creation account is an historical narrative not an allegory, myth, legend, or poetic expression. And both support an ex nihilo creation and reject Darwinian evolution. Thus, both views come from believers who are merely seeking truth and trying to understand God’s message in Genesis 1.

taken from:
http://godandscience.org/youngearth/six_days_of_creation.html

Lanolin · Mar 12, 2019

MY thoughts. Light years are different from ordinary years...am not a mathematician so dont really worry about it. It does not make a scrap of difference to me.. how many light years away a star is. God created it, he put them there and He is good.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 12, 2019

If God created the earth for Man. God had to create the heavens and the earth in a way that when man was created, the earth was ready

This is what many creationists call God created the earth aged.

If God can create all this in 6 days, He can create the stars and have their light shine on the earth that day.

Noose · Mar 12, 2019

User46952 said:

There's a lot of problem with the scientific way of looking at things and i personally have tons of problems with the idea that light travels at all and the definition of visible light - just because it has a source at point A and can be perceived at point B, doesn't mean it travels. Yet i'm not going to argue about this but i will dwell on the main problem which is 'time'.

Physics defines 'time' as what is measured by the clock and Philosophically, it is the succession of events but a thorough look at these definitions, you'll realize they are not complete because they leave out something critical which is a conscious human mind. I'll use examples to demonstrate that:

1. A person in a rotating room will not experience 'passage of time' if everything in that room rotates with them. Not until one or few items are stationery so that by looking and counting every time they come across the stationery object thereby creating a rate in their conscious mind- a rate in their mind that will work as a clock. So, time is not just an oscillation from a clock but what the mind perceives by viewing the clock.

2. A person in a very dark room will not perceive passage of time even though they'll be experiencing succession of events like from one heart beat to another. The reason they won't experience passage of time is because they will not be seeing- so eyes plays a big role in this thing called time and it is only so because it is connected to the mind ( a conscious mind).

For this reason, God put a very visible lamp up there and made the earth to oscillate constantly against the lamp for everyone to see and create a rate in their mind and that rate is what we call time. So, all time is based on the Earth's movement against the sun. From Earth's movement we get a day/ hour/minute/second/year- the earth is basically our clock. Let no man cheat you that a second is a second because of some atomic clock.

The scientific circular reasoning comes when they say the light has been travelling at a speed of 299,792,458 m/s for so many years even before the earth was fully formed. But the second (time) in that rate is earth dependent. All rates, all time is referenced on earth or we can say earth dependent. The second on that rate (speed of light) can not be a second until it's compared to earth's movement.

The universe can not be 13.8 B years and the earth 4.5B years, when a 'year' is the time period that a fully formed earth revolves around the sun once. Time can not be extrapolated backwards if it was not experienced by a conscious mind. Time can only be generally categorized as past (that which was experienced), present (that which we experience) and future (that which we anticipate based on present and past experience).

Note: The bible has hinted that God created everything through the heart of man and this is just an example of how creation works. (not going to expound on this because it is wide). This also means that reality or all existence is in the heart (mind) of a man. this are the deep mysteries in the bible.

Marcelo · Mar 12, 2019

User46952 said:

If God created the universe in six ordinary days, then it adds upto nearly 6000 years from today. If so, how do we see the stars which are beyond 6000 light years? If we see a star which is 10000 light years away means, the star exists for at least 10000 years. If the age of universe is 6000 years, then it would take another 4000 years to see that star. Any thoughts??

I.M.H.O. the Bible sometimes uses symbolic language.

AxeElf · Mar 12, 2019

Lanolin said:

Yes they are. Light years are a measure of distance (the distance traveled by a photon over the course of a year), while ordinary years are a measure of time (the time it takes the Earth to orbit the sun).

AxeElf · Mar 12, 2019

Noose said:

There are? Can you describe any? Perhaps I can help you understand the scientific method better.

Noose said:

Fortunately, the laws of physics operate in the same way whether you approve of them or not.

Noose said:

Um, yeah, that's exactly what it means. If you start at your house and end up hugging your cousin at his house in Milwaukee, it means you traveled.

Noose said:

Yes, they will. There could be no rotation (or movement at all) without time. In fact, you are in a rotating room right now, as the room rotates with the earth around its axis and around the sun and around the center of the Milky Way galaxy.

Noose said:

Yes, they will. I know this because even though I sleep in a very dark room, I still have to get up and go to work after a while.

Noose said:

Roughly, but not exactly. A "day," for instance, is defined as 24 hours, but it actually takes the Earth only 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4 seconds to make one full revolution on its axis. Likewise, a year is defined as 365 days, but it actually takes the earth 365.25 days to go around the sun--which is why we tack an extra day onto February every four years.

If there were no objective standard for time, then we would not have these discrepancies--a year would be exactly 365 days, and a day would be exactly 24 hours.

Noose said:

Incorrect. Spacetime exists independent of our measurement of it. You're saying that time does not exist until we compare it to how long it takes the Earth to rotate, but that's like saying that distance doesn't exist unless you have a tape measure. Time passes anyway, the rotation of the Earth just gives us a handy way of measuring time, just as distance exists anyway, and a yardstick just gives you a handy way of measuring it.

Noose said:

Incorrect. See above.

Noose said:

So for you, God doesn't exist if you don't believe in Him, since all reality is only that which we conceive it to be (and this is true because it says so in the Bible).

O...k...

Dino246 · Mar 12, 2019

For all the advances and discoveries that scientists have made, they still haven't been able to determine the one-way speed of light.

That fact leaves room for explanations of the visibility of distant starlight that violate neither physics nor the character of God. For more information, search out Jason Lisle's explanation on the matter; it's on YouTube.

Noose · Mar 12, 2019

AxeElf said:

Ignore the rest of the things i talked about, let's talk about big bang and i want you to help me understand something.

Is silence a reality and did it start with the big bang?
Is darkness a reality and did it start with the big bang?

PennEd · Mar 12, 2019

User46952 said:

2 possibilities. The one that Robo Op mentions. That essentially God Created the Universe with a built in age. NO ONE I know that believes the Bible even a little bit, thinks God made Adam an infant. He had a "built in" age. We don't know what that would have looked like. A 20 or 30 yr old? But certainly NOT an infant. It follows that other physical properties of the universe also had a built in age, or appearance of age.

The one that Tourist mentions. NO ONE was there 6000 yrs ago to measure the speed of light. One of the astonishing discoveries in the past 50 yrs is that the speed of light is NOT constant. I know, I know, this makes the lemmings heads explode! But it is slowing down. You'd be surprised to learn just how few times it has actually been measured. BTW this same principle applies to radioactive decay, and other natural processes.

Both of these explanations are waaay more plausible than a 14 billion yr Universe. Heck, when I was a kid it was 2 billion, then moved to 4 billion. It reminds me of the global warming fiasco, where the scientists said most of the east coast was supposed to be under water by now.

But the lemmings don't care a whit that the goalposts of scientists in virtually ALL fields constantly move.

AxeElf · Mar 12, 2019

Dino246 said:

I think you are confusing the inability to measure the one-way speed of light (due to having no way to reliably synchronize two clocks over a distance) with the inability to define the one-way speed of light. The one-way speed of light is undefined (due to the problem of measurement), but not unknown. The uncertainty lies in the ability to measure time at a distance, not in the speed of light itself.

Dino246 said:

Oh, well if it's on YouTube, it must be right.

I don't believe that physics violates the character of God to begin with (after all, God created physics); but physics violates a lot of the misunderstandings that can arise when one uses a Bible in a way that it was not intended to be used--as a history book or as a science book for instance.

Dino246 · Mar 12, 2019

PennEd said:

A change in the speed of light has massive implications for physics, chemistry, and biology. While not impossible, its implications make it less plausible than some other explanations.

Radioactive decay, and the time periods it implies, are subject to significant assumptions about the materials and their beginning states. Different assumptions result in very different time periods. Again, this doesn't make the present popular assumptions "wrong", but it does leave sound explanations for different conclusions.

Dino246 · Mar 12, 2019

AxeElf said:

Bafflegab. The result is the same: we don't know the one-way speed of light.

AxeElf said:

Was that my implication? No. There's no need to be a jack-donkey.

AxeElf said:

Of course physics doesn't violate the character of God. However, some explanations of physical phenomena do.

AxeElf · Mar 12, 2019

Noose said:

I would be glad to.

Noose said:

Silence is defined as the complete absence of sound. That is a real concept, just as the complete absence of leprechauns in your bathroom is a reality.

"Starting" implies that there was a time before; but since there is no spacetime without creation (the big bang), there is no "before"; therefore the question is meaningless.

Noose said:

Darkness is defined as a total absence of light. That is a real concept, just as the total absence of unicorns in your car is a reality.

"Starting" implies that there was a time before; but since there is no spacetime without creation (the big bang), there is no "before"; therefore the question is meaningless.

obedienttogod · Mar 12, 2019

User46952 said:

Not all of science is an evil tool. Much of scripture we can deduct the sense of time, distance, other measurements, even can see astrophysics from the WORD. Engineering, Mathematics, Reasoning, Purpose can be deducted.

Look at the time it takes to launch from earth and land on the moon. Now, look at the time it took to send a rover to Mars, just only one planet away from us. And then look at some of the biggest stars we have within our immediate Galaxy. It would take more than a humans life span to reach these stars from Earth. And we factually know the Universe expands more each passing day.

It really is a mystery. Even though the sun rose and sat and was called as a day during Creation, we have no idea what that actually means if it was originally on God's time, or ours.

Lets take these 2 verses using the Torah:

Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 1: 11-12

יאוַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֗ים תַּדְשֵׁ֤א הָאָ֨רֶץ֙ דֶּ֗שֶׁא עֵ֚שֶׂב
מַזְרִ֣יעַ זֶ֔רַע עֵ֣ץ פְּרִ֞י עֹ֤שֶׂה פְּרִי֙ לְמִינ֔וֹ אֲשֶׁ֥ר
זַרְעוֹ־ב֖וֹ עַל־הָאָ֑רֶץ וַֽיְהִי־כֵֽן:

11 And God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, seed yielding herbs and fruit trees producing fruit according to its kind in which its seed is found, on the earth," and it was so.

יבוַתּוֹצֵ֨א הָאָ֜רֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵ֣שֶׂב מַזְרִ֤יעַ זֶ֨רַע֙
לְמִינֵ֔הוּ וְעֵ֧ץ עֹֽשֶׂה־פְּרִ֛י אֲשֶׁ֥ר זַרְעוֹ־ב֖וֹ לְמִינֵ֑הוּ
וַיַּ֥רְא אֱלֹהִ֖ים כִּי־טֽוֹב

12 And the earth gave forth vegetation, seed yielding herbs according to its kind, and trees producing fruit, in which its seed is found, according to its kind, and God saw that it was good.

This shows immediately the trees God spoke into existence yielded fruit. This is normally a few years process, but these trees where bearing fruit, or right at the moment of producing when God spoke them into existence. Chapter 2 of course, mentions generations. Maybe those trees were grown for enough generations, that when God put them in to action, they budded actual mature seed.

Noose · Mar 12, 2019

AxeElf said:

I would be glad to.

Silence is defined as the complete absence of sound. That is a real concept, just as the complete absence of leprechauns in your bathroom is a reality.

"Starting" implies that there was a time before; but since there is no spacetime without creation (the big bang), there is no "before"; therefore the question is meaningless.

Darkness is defined as a total absence of light. That is a real concept, just as the total absence of unicorns in your car is a reality.

"Starting" implies that there was a time before; but since there is no spacetime without creation (the big bang), there is no "before"; therefore the question is meaningless.

If there's a 13.8 billion years ago, it means there was 0 time (when the big bang happened supposedly)
Did darkness and silence exist from that moment onward?

Creation of universe

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