Jesus is not coming back. He already did in 70 A.D.

[delirious]

Then your saying that the Zealots set up an image in the temple and caused great,small,rich poor ect to worship their image,in every nation?

I'm saying that's a possibility based on this guy's theory that Israel is the fourth beast. I'm still evaluating his idea. We know from Josephus' Wars that those who wanted peace with Rome had their throats cut (beheading of Rev 20: 4?).

Again you are now seemingly approaching this seeking a literal fulfillment and no longer spiritual?

I do think it is primarily a spiritual battle and Revelation is talking about spiritual realities but it looks like their is some literal fulfillment to some of the things. I think the birds actually did feed on the dead bodies of the 1 million or so Jews killed at the fall of Jerusalem. Jerusalem and the temple were burned with literal fire as well. It represented the symbolic fire of God's judgment.

I was throwing in the literal feeding by the birds because I know you like literal.

 

[Locutus]

Then your saying that the Zealots set up an image in the temple and caused great,small,rich poor ect to worship their image,in every nation?

Evening Bro - question - how are you trying the zealots (vis-a-vis Josephus) with John's statements about the beasty image and the buy and sell verses?

Where is the connection?

Edited

 

[delirious]

Evening Bro - question - how are you trying the zealots (vis-a-vis Josephus) with John's statements about the beasty image and the buy and sell verses? Where is the connection?

I had mentioned to him in a previous post that I was reading a guy's blog who suggested that Israel and not Rome was the fourth beast of Revelation. I know iamsoandso's hang up is the MotB and the buying and selling and I was wondering if he had heard the idea about Israel being the fourth beast before.

I posted some of the argument's the guy uses in his blog for Israel as the fourth beast. You can see them in post #556.

 

[Locutus]

Ya, I saw that - I think I've come across that idea somewhere before.

 

[iamsoandso]

I'm saying that's a possibility based on this guy's theory that Israel is the fourth beast. I'm still evaluating his idea. We know from Josephus' Wars that those who wanted peace with Rome had their throats cut (beheading of Rev 20: 4?).



I do think it is primarily a spiritual battle and Revelation is talking about spiritual realities but it looks like their is some literal fulfillment to some of the things. I think the birds actually did feed on the dead bodies of the 1 million or so Jews killed at the fall of Jerusalem. Jerusalem and the temple were burned with literal fire as well. It represented the symbolic fire of God's judgment.

I was throwing in the literal feeding by the birds because I know you like literal.

So just who is this guy,lol? No offense but this seems like old school preterism ,which is mostly a literal approach,but not always. Some I see exhaust Nero until they see the err their own selves and others suggest psaltery boxes worn by the Jews. Some bring up third and fourth century letters and try to tie them to ad66-70. Some show the generals standing up their eagle in support of Titus at the end of the siege. None so far have sufficed an old man shaving his face in the mirror in the morning while contemplating the things to say to his family about the scriptures. How be it though say who this guy is and we will set it on the scale and the bible on the other side.

I don't like either of the two so to speak. If I could choose I suppose spiritual would be worse than literal from an Amill. vrs. peterist position in that I would still be in danger of receiving the mark,being decieved, and worshiping the image ect. in Amill. where in the preterist camp it is past tense and no longer any threat. Any way though being outside the camps provides the liberty of not defending any camp and being able to agree with the Scriptures alone.

 

[iamsoandso]

Evening Bro - question - how are you trying the zealots (vis-a-vis Josephus) with John's statements about the beasty image and the buy and sell verses?

Where is the connection?

Edited

I'm not who suggested them...

 

[crossnote]

No it doesn't - you've taken one verse out of context, ignored the prophetic style of writing and ignored John's clearly stated time indicators.

John begins with:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

If we look at the Greek behind the word "shortly":

Strongs

G5034 tachos takh'-os

from the same as G5036;

a brief space (of time), i.e. (with G1722 prefixed) in haste.


KJV: quickly, shortly, speedily.

So when the above is taken into account this is in fact what John is saying:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must in a brief space of time come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The events following that John writes of including "every eye" and "those that pierced" would see him in a "brief space of time".

To try to place the "every eye" passage hundreds of years into a "future" judgment is based on a fawlty eisegeis.

A 'brief space (of time)' easily refers to the sliver of time from the beginning of events to their conclusion in Revelation. It has nothing to do with the 2000 years or so thus far.

 

[Locutus]

I'm not who suggested them...

Ok - do you think there is connection then - I assumed you were "promoting" that.

 

[Locutus]

A 'brief space (of time)' easily refers to the sliver of time from the beginning of events to their conclusion in Revelation. It has nothing to do with the 2000 years or so thus far.

So when John stated "which shortly must come to pass" he meant in "a brief moment of time" in 2000 years and counting without giving any indication of that to his readers.

Good arg.

Oh - but he did mention the "time is at hand".

 

[iamsoandso]

Ok - do you think there is connection then - I assumed you were "promoting" that.

no, I was answering him...

 

[delirious]

So just who is this guy,lol? No offense but this seems like old school preterism ,which is mostly a literal approach,but not always.

His name is Adam Maarschalk and he has a website/blog. I read him every once in a while. Here is a link to his blog and some of the arguments he was making in support of Israel as the fourth beast.

https://adammaarschalk.com/2017/01/...beast-10-horns-three-horns-and-a-little-horn/

 

[dcontroversal]

The "Man of Sin" has yet to be revealed, therefore according to Paul neither has the Rapture, end time judgments, or Second Coming...

"Now, dear brothers and sisters,a let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us. Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.

Don’t you remember that I told you about all this when I was with you? And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way. Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming.

This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth.

Amen....the parousia of Christ, that is to say our gathering together unto him.......SHALL NOT COME UNTIL.....IS CLEAR enough for me......

 

[delirious]

Then your saying that the Zealots set up an image in the temple and caused great,small,rich poor ect to worship their image,in every nation?

I noticed this in Revelation Chapter 11:

Rev 11: 8-9, "And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves."

It is interesting to note that the "peoples, tribes, tongues and nations" are not all over the world. They seem to be the people within the walls of Jerusalem during the siege.

 

[Locutus]

no, I was answering him...

Ok - I thought you had brought up this way back - no worries - so if, assuming that the image was set up back then and the buy and sell thingy who could fit the "bill" for a 1st century fulfillment?

 

[dcontroversal]

It says in those verses that He would reward everyone according to his deeds when He returned. He did not do that after His resurrection or at His ascension. He did it in 70 A.D. when the second coming happened.

I agree with you that one day we will see Him in heaven. It will be after we die. Praise God for that.

Over 1 million Jews were put to the sword by the Romans in 70 A.D. under Titus....one h--- of a reward hey.....the Second coming dis not happen in 70 A.D......that is about as idiotic as it comes!!

 

[Locutus]

I noticed this in Revelation Chapter 11:

Rev 11: 8-9, "And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves."

It is interesting to note that the "peoples, tribes, tongues and nations" are not all over the world. They seem to be the people within the walls of Jerusalem during the siege.

If definitely could fit with that as we see from Acts that Jews traveled to the "homeland" out of the nations:

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

The siege I believe started around Passover.

 

[delirious]

Then your saying that the Zealots set up an image in the temple and caused great,small,rich poor ect to worship their image,in every nation?

The point I am trying to make is that the phrase "rich and poor, small and great, free and slave" probably refers only to the people trapped inside Jerusalem's walls during the siege. We know from Josephus that the zealots went around bullying everybody.

The phrase from Rev 11: 8-9 talks about "every tribe, people, tongue and nation" and is also probably referring just to the people trapped within the walls of Jerusalem during the siege. Who else would be able to see the dead bodies of the two witnesses lying in the street? Only the people trapped in the city.

There is good reason to believe from these verses that, although they sound universal in scope, it is only referring to the people trapped in the city of Jerusalem during the siege.

What do you think?

 

[dcontroversal]

hahahaha what a joke

We agree....imagine that hah

 

[Locutus]

I dunno about that Delirious - those verses are highly enigmatic.

 

[dcontroversal]

Must of been a hot fire to burn down stonewalls, I scratch my head on a few things.

If you was astute and studied you would know it did not burn down stone walls, it did melt the gold and silver which ran down into the stones and the ROMANS REMOVED EVERY STONE TO GET THE GOLD AND SILVER!!!