Jesus is not coming back. He already did in 70 A.D.

[delirious]

delirious even said the earthquake is not literal? thats a delirious statement! WHAT ON EARTH does the earthquake symbolize? You just have to make it up as you go along, it cant mean a huge earthquake, because there were none during the 70AD siege, it doesnt fit your narrative so you got to change it.

It's called the Analogy of Scripture. Do you know what that means? In case you are not familiar I will just tell you. It means let Scripture interpret Scripture. Let it speak for itself. Don't impose a false hermeneutic upon it that the Bible rejects. Like literalism in apocalyptic/prophetic passages.

Whenever de-creation language is used in the Bible it is never literal. It is always symbolic. Here are some examples:

Isaiah 13: 9-10 about the destruction of Babylon
Isaiah 34: 4-5 about the destruction of Edom
Ezekiel 32: 7-9 about the destruction of Pharaoh and Egypt

You also have Zephaniah 1, Isaiah 24, Joel 2, etc....

There are many more examples in the Old Testament and New Testament. The language is always symbolic and never literal.

So why do you think it is in Revelation?

 

[Hevosmies]

The language is always symbolic and never literal.

Then we can never know what anything means and we should immediately cease all studying of the book of Revelation. Waste of time

I also disagree. Jesus rode to Jerusalem on a donkey, literally fulfilled. The first coming prophecies were OVERWHELMINGLY literal, why not the second coming ones?

*insert personal insults here to delirious and locutus for believing in a heretical resurrection has already past full-preterism, liberal wicked theology*

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

delirious, surely Revelation 17:8's phrase "when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet shall be" means SOMETHING (in your scheme of how it played out), but what do you say it meant/means?? (my question to you a number of posts ago )


"IS NOT" means what? "and YET SHALL BE" means what? (in FP viewpoint)

 

[Locutus]

Then we can never know what anything means and we should immediately cease all studying of the book of Revelation. Waste of time

I also disagree. Jesus rode to Jerusalem on a donkey, literally fulfilled. The first coming prophecies were OVERWHELMINGLY literal, why not the second coming ones?

*insert personal insults here to delirious and locutus for believing in a heretical resurrection has already past full-preterism, liberal wicked theology*

This is what delirious said:

Whenever de-creation language is used in the Bible it is never literal. It is always symbolic

 

[Hevosmies]

This is what delirious said:

Whenever de-creation language is used in the Bible it is never literal. It is always symbolic

I disagree.

2 Peter 3:10-13 COMING UP

Revelation 21:1 COMING UP

 

[Locutus]

I disagree.

2 Peter 3:10-13 COMING UP

Revelation 21:1 COMING UP

Peter and John are using well known symbolic de-construction and creation language.

Isaiah is a good example of symbolic creation language:

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

The above is not speaking of the physical heavens and earth, he speaking of creating the symbolic heavens and earth of His people - this was done at the giving of the Law to the Israelites,

Josephus gives insight into how the Jews understood this:

"Antiquities Book 3 6:4

As for the inside, Moses parted its length into three partitions. At the distance of ten cubits from the most secret end, Moses placed four pillars, the workmanship of which was the very same with that of the rest; and they stood upon the like bases with them, each a small matter distant from his fellow.

Now the room within those pillars was the most holy place; but the rest of the room was the tabernacle, which was open for the priests. However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God. But the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only.

Antiquities book 3 7:7

Now here one may wonder at the ill-will which men bear to us, and which they profess to bear on account of our despising that Deity which they pretend to honor; for if any one do but consider the fabric of the tabernacle, and take a view of the garments of the high priest, and of those vessels which we make use of in our sacred ministration, he will find that our legislator was a divine man, and that we are unjustly reproached by others; for if any one do without prejudice, and with judgment, look upon these things, he will find they were every one made in way of imitation and representation of the universe.


When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men. "

So the above describes the "heaven and earth" in Hebrew thought that was to pass away - which it did in the 1st century AD.

 

[Hevosmies]

Peter and John are using well known symbolic de-construction and creation language.

Isaiah is a good example of symbolic creation language:

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

The above is not speaking of the physical heavens and earth, he speaking of creating the symbolic heavens and earth of His people - this was done at the giving of the Law to the Israelites,

Josephus gives insight into how the Jews understood this:

"Antiquities Book 3 6:4

As for the inside, Moses parted its length into three partitions. At the distance of ten cubits from the most secret end, Moses placed four pillars, the workmanship of which was the very same with that of the rest; and they stood upon the like bases with them, each a small matter distant from his fellow.

Now the room within those pillars was the most holy place; but the rest of the room was the tabernacle, which was open for the priests. However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God. But the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only.

Antiquities book 3 7:7

Now here one may wonder at the ill-will which men bear to us, and which they profess to bear on account of our despising that Deity which they pretend to honor; for if any one do but consider the fabric of the tabernacle, and take a view of the garments of the high priest, and of those vessels which we make use of in our sacred ministration, he will find that our legislator was a divine man, and that we are unjustly reproached by others; for if any one do without prejudice, and with judgment, look upon these things, he will find they were every one made in way of imitation and representation of the universe.


When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men. "

So the above describes the "heaven and earth" in Hebrew thought that was to pass away - which it did in the 1st century AD.

Thanks Locutus! I wasnt expecting a good response, im POSITIVELY surprised.

So what did the new heaven and earth mean in Isaiah 51:16 then? And what does it mean in Revelation 21:1?

And this is one thing i'ev always wondered about full preterism, does this rat race ever end? Will there ever be a day when people are no longer born? When sin and death are done away with, never to exist? When satan is bound or thrown into the lake of fire (take your pick)?

 

[Hevosmies]

Typo in my response above! I meant to ask: What did the creation of new heaven and earth mean in Rev 21:1 then if it meant giving of the law /tabernacle busienss in Isaiah 51:6

 

[delirious]

delirious, surely Revelation 17:8's phrase "when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet shall be" means SOMETHING (in your scheme of how it played out), but what do you say it meant/means?? (my question to you a number of posts ago )
"IS NOT" means what? "and YET SHALL BE" means what? (in FP viewpoint)

Rev 17 & 18 is talking about the fall of Mystery Babylon. I believe that to be Jerusalem for multiple reasons including:

1. Rev 18: 24, "And in her was found the blood of PROPHETS and saints, and of all who were SLAIN ON THE EARTH.”

2. Luke 13: 33-34, "Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a PROPHET should perish outside of Jerusalem. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the PROPHETS and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

3. Matt 23: 34-36, "Therefore, indeed, I send you PROPHETS, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood SHED ON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon THIS GENERATION.

I don't know exactly what is meant by Rev 17: 8 but it had something to do with the fall of Jerusalem. Maybe Locutus has an answer for you on that particular verse.

 

[cv5]

That doesn't affect preterism at all. Not sure why you think it does.

This does.....

1 Peter 3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Locutus]

Thanks Locutus! I wasnt expecting a good response, im POSITIVELY surprised.

So what did the new heaven and earth mean in Isaiah 51:16 then? And what does it mean in Revelation 21:1?

In Isaiah we have the old covenant/law creation going back to Moses, the temple represented both heaven and earth as part of the covenant as Josephus says.

The new covenant/temple John sees in it's fullness (Christ is the temple) in visionary form:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

After the destruction of the old temple/priesthood/city (which was the embodiment of the old covenant) John sees the new temple (embodiment of the new covenant new temple/priesthood/city - Christ and believers in him) in its full glory. (remember this is visionary). John declares this the new heaven and earth - note how he says there is no more sea.

Do we take this literally - I believe the clue is in the symbolic nature of the sea used by John to represent the Gentiles or Nations:

Rev 13:1....And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea....

Under the old covenant/creation the Jews were set apart, in the new creation they are not - in the new temple (Christ's body - US) there is no "sea" there is only new created people - no distinction between Jew and Gentile.

In a sense the earth represents the people in both the old covenant creation and the new covenant creation:

Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

In the war of 66-70 AD the salt was preserved, those that lost their savour were "trodden under foot of men".

And this is one thing I've always wondered about full preterism, does this rat race ever end? Will there ever be a day when people are no longer born? When sin and death are done away with, never to exist? When satan is bound or thrown into the lake of fire (take your pick)?

This probably one of the biggest issues people have with FT - "does this rat race ever end" - I can really relate to that, I don't have a good answer for this.

As for sin and death, they are done away with for Christians (not in the sense that we don't pass through the grave or that we don't fall into sin this side of the grave.

I think Christ gives us to a clue about this:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[Hevosmies]

Thanks Locutus. If you ever get an answer to "does this rat race ever end" from the full preterist camp let me know.

I will stick with what I believe!

 

[Locutus]

Thanks Locutus. If you ever get an answer to "does this rat race ever end" from the full preterist camp let me know.

I will stick with what I believe!

Keep reading and digging around.

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Eph 3:21 (Youngs' Literal) to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

I've read that "age of the ages" (Greek aionos ton aionon) is the nearest that Greek can be used to express endlessness such as:

But then other argue against this because of the endless torment in hell opposition

 

[Locutus]

This does.....

1 Peter 3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

John tells us THEY and himself were living in the last time:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

There is no justification for stretching the last time into our time.

If we look at a literal version such as Young's it's even more evident:

1 John 2:18 Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many -- whence we know that it is the last hour;

When Peter spoke THEY were in the last days:

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The last days were present as Peter declared at Pentecost - John years later stated it it the last hour.

 

[cv5]

That doesn't affect preterism at all. Not sure why you think it does.

Romans 11:25
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

Question: is Israel yet blinded?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I don't know exactly what is meant by Rev 17: 8 but it had something to do with the fall of Jerusalem. Maybe Locutus has an answer for you on that particular verse.

Okay, but I was gathering from your posts (and others') that [according to the Preterist view] all prophecy was "fulfilled" in 70ad, and that (according to your view), Revelation was written before 70ad (so that the "and YET SHALL BE [future]" part of that verse is, supposedly, now[70ad] completed/fulfilled/over), am I reading you right?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Rev 17 & 18 is talking about the fall of Mystery Babylon. I believe that to be Jerusalem for multiple reasons including:

1. Rev 18: 24, "And in her was found the blood of PROPHETS and saints, and of all who were SLAIN ON THE EARTH.”

2. Luke 13: 33-34, "Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a PROPHET should perish outside of Jerusalem. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the PROPHETS and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

3. Matt 23: 34-36, "Therefore, indeed, I send you PROPHETS, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood SHED ON THE EARTH, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon THIS GENERATION.

I don't know exactly what is meant by Rev 17: 8 but it had something to do with the fall of Jerusalem. Maybe Locutus has an answer for you on that particular verse.

Greetings delirious!

Below is Rev.17:8

"The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction."

This verse and related scriptures, have nothing to do with the fall of Jerusalem, or anything at all to do with Jerusalem. The beast is that angel of the Abyss who will be released at the sounding of the 5th trumpet, when that angel that has the key to the Abyss, opens it and lets out those demonic beings which resemble locusts, horses prepared for battle, hair like women's hair, teeth like lions teeth, etc. Their king is that angel of the Abyss. This is the same angel/beast who will empower the antichrist and the same one who will kill the two witnesses. He is that beast who:

Once was = This angel once was out in the world (most likely the power behind past rulers)

Now is not = From John's time frame he was no longer out in the world, but was restricted to the Abyss

And yet will come = He will once again be released from the Abyss at the 5th trumpet and will be destroyed by the Lord's return

Revelation 17 is in reference to the beast and the woman who rides it. Jerusalem is not even in view in either chapter 17 & 18.

 

[delirious]

Okay, but I was gathering from your posts (and others') that [according to the Preterist view] all prophecy was "fulfilled" in 70ad, and that (according to your view), Revelation was written before 70ad (so that the "and YET SHALL BE [future]" part of that verse is, supposedly, now[70ad] completed/fulfilled/over), am I reading you right?

The FP view believes that all Scripture is fulfilled by 70 A.D.

Matt 5: 17-18, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Jesus is saying in this passage that the Old Covenant cannot pass away until everything is fulfilled that is written in the law and prophets. He says not even the smallest bit can pass from the law until it is all fulfilled and at that time heaven and earth will pass away.

Luke 21: 20-22, "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

In these verses we see the fulfillment of everything written in the Old Testament at the destruction of Jerusalem. Heaven and earth passed away (the old covenant) and the new heavens and earth (the new covenant, Christ's kingdom) was established.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

huh

u prob already know

but new 2 me

looks like Roku is not coming back either

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The FP view believes that all Scripture is fulfilled by 70 A.D.
Matt 5: 17-18, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."
Jesus is saying in this passage that the Old Covenant cannot pass away until everything is fulfilled that is written in the law and prophets. He says not even the smallest bit can pass from the law until it is all fulfilled and at that time heaven and earth will pass away.

Luke 21: 20-22, "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
In these verses we see the fulfillment of everything written in the Old Testament at the destruction of Jerusalem. Heaven and earth passed away (the old covenant) and the new heavens and earth (the new covenant, Christ's kingdom) was established.

Luke 21:20-22 that you are quoting here (a part of the 70ad section [vv.12-24a]) is saying that the 70ad events are necessary to be fulfilled (they cannot be "skipped over" or "bypassed"), but it is not saying that the 70ad events is the sum total of all the prophecies to be fulfilled. (I said that in an earlier post of this thread.)

I mean, first you agreed with me in my pointing out the SEQUENCE issues of the Olivet Discourse (where it's basically saying in Lk21:12 that the 70ad events have to come "BEFORE ALL THESE[--->]" beginning of birth pangs [Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11]), but then you changed your mind to agree with another poster that that is not what is being said here in Lk21:12 [re: 12-24a 70ad events]. Is it, or isn't it?