Jesus is not coming back. He already did in 70 A.D.

[delirious]

Thanks for the feedback delirious, FP is challenging to other peoples with deeply held eschatologies.

Oh yes, very challenging to some peoples belief systems. I have found that people get very angry over FP. I have had other Christians who have known me for a while say, "What is your hope?" or "Are you even a Christian?" or "I think you are up to something and have ulterior motives." Hurtful to hear those things from people who should know you.

It amazes me their reaction. If you say Jesus already came back then that somehow makes you not a Christian in their mind. I think part of it has to do with the escapist mentality taught in churches today. The mentality that says this world is going to hell in a hand basket and we need to escape it. You take away the rapture hope for some people and they seem to get really angry at you and call you all kinds of false things.

I don't care what men, or traditions, or the creeds say. I don't care what other Christians think about me. I still love my brothers and sisters in Christ even if they think I''ve gone off the deep end.

I only care about what the Bible says.

 

[obedienttogod]

Apparently you haven't read Judges, Samuel, Kings, Chronicles, Jeremiah, or Ezekiel.

Every single time that any enemy was permitted to attack Israel, it was all about the judgment of God. Jesus Himself prophesied the destruction of the temple as the judgment of God. He continually warned the people of impending judgment.

That is correct, but God also does not interfere with humanity unless humanity asks God to. And Rome was going to attack Israel eventually. They did attack it more than once, in fact. The chart of 1ST CENTURY wars involving Rome, does emphasize, this was the FIRST of OTHER wars with the Jews.

Your comment is like saying, God made the Hebrews slaves to Egypt.

But look at Abraham, Isaac, and then Jacob, there is nothing going on here that God should punish His people. But as the result of Jacob reuniting with his lost son, Joseph, the Hebrews end up being slaves for over 400 years.

I hear preachers claim this was God's punishment (Egypt), like you are claiming about Rome. But NOWHERE does it claim the Hebrews being slaves in Egypt was the punishment of God. Nope, in fact, God allowed that situation to develop on its own account by the free will of humanity.

An earthquake could have destroyed the Temple, but it ended up being Titus, who did it, because he believed it showed his roman-greco gods were more powerful than Yahweh.

 

[delirious]

lol, ask about http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html and the mark among the FP camp and see if it's foggy grey or black and white...

The MotB was probably a spiritual mark since it is contrasted with the seal on His servants foreheads in Revelation. Whatever it was, one of the basic rules of biblical hermeneutics is you don't take obscure passages and invalidate dozens and dozens of clear passages that all teach the same thing.

The first verse of Revelation tells you the book is encoded in signs and symbols so why would a person try to point to the MotB and say, "This means your system can't be right because you don't know what it is!" That is silly.

Even futurists don't know what it is even though they have their theories i.e. computer chips etc... No, their eschatology is false because the biblical framework will not allow for their view.

I had to leave the amillennial viewpoint because the Scriptures declare that Jesus came back in the first century. They declare this in many, many places. I realized that my amill position along with the postmillennialists and partial preterists all had the same problem that the dispensational dummies have (I say that affectionately). Scripture doesn't support any of those positions. I would have stayed amill if it hadn't been for that pesky problem of a future second coming and judgment that the Bible contradicts.

 

[delirious]

I debunked your threads then, and I can debunk this one too!
Just the fact that you say "it was fulfilled, but we dont know exactly what the mark of the beast was or who the man of sin was" PROVES that those never happened. If it had happened, WE WOULD KNOW ABOUT IT, clearly, undisputed!

Lol. You are funny. You never debunked anything I said in the past. You continue to hold to the most unbiblical eschatology their is with dispensationalism/premillennialism. Hopefully, one day, like Ahwatukee, Penn Ed, Cv5, Divine Watermark and many others on here who are horribly confused about eschatology, you will escape your trap. That is my hope for you guys anyways.

Read the Bible. Accept it for what it says. I'm not saying this is you but too many people try and manipulate it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is correct, but God also does not interfere with humanity unless humanity asks God to. And Rome was going to attack Israel eventually. They did attack it more than once, in fact. The chart of 1ST CENTURY wars involving Rome, does emphasize, this was the FIRST of OTHER wars with the Jews.

Your comment is like saying, God made the Hebrews slaves to Egypt.

But look at Abraham, Isaac, and then Jacob, there is nothing going on here that God should punish His people. But as the result of Jacob reuniting with his lost son, Joseph, the Hebrews end up being slaves for over 400 years.

I hear preachers claim this was God's punishment (Egypt), like you are claiming about Rome. But NOWHERE does it claim the Hebrews being slaves in Egypt was the punishment of God. Nope, in fact, God allowed that situation to develop on its own account by the free will of humanity.

An earthquake could have destroyed the Temple, but it ended up being Titus, who did it, because he believed it showed his roman-greco gods were more powerful than Yahweh.

God has interated with humanity many times with them not asking, the flood is about the best example.

 

[Dino246]

That is correct, but God also does not interfere with humanity unless humanity asks God to.

Um... where do you get this idea? It most certainly isn't from the Bible.

An earthquake could have destroyed the Temple, but it ended up being Titus, who did it, because he believed it showed his roman-greco gods were more powerful than Yahweh.

The Babylonians and Assyrians thought their gods were more powerful as well. Does that somehow make their invasions something other than the judgment of God? Not at all. They were God's instrument of judgment, as were the Romans.

Instead of dealing with a bunch of red herrings, let's focus on your assertion: that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD was not God's judgment. I say your assertion is incorrect, because Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple and judgment upon Jerusalem.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Right, Dino246.

In many of my posts, I've pointed out the correlations between Matthew 22:7-8 with the SEQUENCE revealed elsewhere. Here's the fuller passage (in part):

Matthew 22 [blb] -

1 And answering, Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man, a king, who made a wedding feast for his son. 3 And he sent his servants to call those having been invited to the wedding feast—and they were not willing to come.

4 Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Say to those having been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner. My oxen and the fatlings have been killed, and all things are ready; come to the wedding feast.”’

5 And having paid no attention they went away, one to the own field, and one to his business. 6 And the rest, having laid hold of his servants, mistreated and killed them.

7 And the king was angry [/wroth - kjv], and having sent his armies, he destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 Then he says to his servants, […]


The part that says, "and the king was wroth," I believe corresponds with Luke 21:23's "and wrath upon this people," in the section of the Olivet Discourse covering the 70ad events (Luke 21:12-24a, with 24b following on from there [time-wise]; AND Matt22 verse 7; with verse 8 necessarily taking place AFTER the 70ad events, in the wording of "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" [which I believe correlates with the LATER 95ad Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 7:3 regarding "servants of our God" (the 144,000 of specific "nation [singular]" set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations [plural]" in chpt 7, there, who will be "coming out of THE GREAT tribulation" [future])]).

This also is consistent with the SEQUENCE that Daniel 9:25-27 reveals.

 

[Locutus]

The 144k of the tribes were already being "gathered" into Christ in the 1st century AD - both Peter (who calls them elect) and James wrote to them as brethren:

1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered (Greek - diaspora) throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered (Greek - diaspora) abroad, greeting.

To posit a future gathering of the 144,000 of the tribes is an anachronism.

The tribes were being gathered into one stick during the apostles preaching.

Ezek 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

Ezek 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Even your verse ^ says, "are scattered". Ezekiel 37 goes on to say, "27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is among them forever.’”

So Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10 speaks of Israel ("in the place where it WAS SAID UNTO THEM, YE ARE NOT My people, there SHALL THEY BE CALLED the children/sons of the living God"); whereas Romans 9:25/Hosea2:23b speaks of the Gentiles (and in the Romans 9-11 section, it speaks of "nations"... "Israel [singular nation]" and "the Gentiles [plural nations]"... With Rom11:15,25-29 speaking of Israel's "future," just as Hosea 5:15-6:3 speaks of Israel future, where it states, "I will go and return to My place, till they [Israel] acknowledge their offence, and seek My face: in their [Israel's] affliction, they [Israel] will seek Me early/earnestly."... consistent with Jesus' words in the gospels...)


Ezekiel 39:7-8 states "in this way" regarding Israel ("so shall *I* make my holy name known in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL"), speaking of a specific time frame...

 

[delirious]

Even your verse ^ says, "are scattered". Ezekiel 37 goes on to say, "27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is among them forever.’”

The issue that you are having, and all dispensationalists have, is that you think this "regathering" is in the physical land of Israel with a physical temple and began in 1948.

The scattering of the 10 northern tribes of Israel happened in 722 B.C. with the Assyrian captivity. God kept covenant with the southern kingdom of Judah at that point and disregarded Israel because of their idolatry and disobedience.

The "regathering" of Israel took place in the first century in Christ. Not in 1948. God gathered the scattered outcasts of Israel, along with the Gentiles, and the faithful elect remnant of Jews, into Christ. This is the two sticks becoming one in Ezekiel 37. God has gathered all in Christ which the New Testament makes abundantly clear.

The sanctuary in their midst forevermore in Ezekiel 37 is Christ. It is not a physical temple. Jesus declared several times in the New Testament that He is the temple. When the dispensationalists insists it is a physical temple that needs to be rebuilt he simply is in error.

 

[obedienttogod]

Um... where do you get this idea? It most certainly isn't from the Bible.

TWO of YOU I see did not get my gist of what I was stating here.

My point is that unless God has a purpose, has an intention, making a point, He typically let's "FREE WILL" do its thing.

To me, the BEST EXAMPLE of this is the PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDERS we have medically defined TODAY. Several times in scripture, we see where someone being healed was as simple as Yeshua stating your sins are forgiven, or, the sins of your parents are forgiven. These PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDERS (mental illness - Asperger's - Autism - many many more including Narcissism, psychopathic, deranged) are a result of genetics passed through inheritance. TWO healthy parents with a mentally deformed child.

The fact that 15% of the entire population (8 Billion people +) suffer from some sort of PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER, is PROOF that God allows "Free Will" to serve its purpose than for Him to intervene!!

The Babylonians and Assyrians thought their gods were more powerful as well. Does that somehow make their invasions something other than the judgment of God? Not at all. They were God's instrument of judgment, as were the Romans.

Instead of dealing with a bunch of red herrings, let's focus on your assertion: that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD was not God's judgment. I say your assertion is incorrect, because Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple and judgment upon Jerusalem.

For the most part, the enemies of the Hebrews were so because they were enemies of the Hebrew God. The Jews WERE NO THREAT to Rome. Nero was just an insane tyrant. I am not going to claim that God does not use what man's "Free Will" puts into place for His own purpose. But the Jews were easy targets 2,000 years ago. When Yeshua was here, we never read about the Jewish military, because THERE WAS NONE!! It's not like Rome did not know this since they GOVERNED the entire area. This war was a literal Bully picking on a tiny Chump!! Did God use it? The Apostles were killed (but John), the Temple was destroyed, the Jewish people became a scattered nation. 2,000 years later, 9 million Jews return, have renewed their old Mosaic traditions, and have in plans the rebuilding of the Temple. I see God made a point the Jews never forgot, NOT!! I do not see where the Jews 2,000 years ago/today have actually changed, with the exception of technology. In 2,000 years time, the Jews are back to their old ways. I don't see anyone who learned from the 70 A.D destruction, other than Gentiles who are now converts of Christ!!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ So, delirious, how do you (or did you) say that the following was fulfilled in 70ad (or whatever):

Lk22:30,16,18 -

16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. [comp. Matt26:29 "until THAT DAY when I drink it NEW WITH [G3326 - meta - accompanying] YOU in My Father's kingdom" ]

[…]

28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judgING the twelve tribes of Israel. [see also Matthew 19:28 (see also Matthew 25:31-34 for its TIMING)]

[also Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal (see G347 in Matt8:11 and parallel also)] and Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN" and His dealing out responsibilities, at that time, of "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise... thou over 5"]


...I cannot recall how you've stated these have been played out ([their] "judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" etc), at that first century time period (esp. AT [or after?] that 70ad time slot you are suggesting). Thanks.

 

[iamsoandso]

The MotB was probably a spiritual mark since it is contrasted with the seal on His servants foreheads in Revelation. Whatever it was, one of the basic rules of biblical hermeneutics is you don't take obscure passages and invalidate dozens and dozens of clear passages that all teach the same thing.

The first verse of Revelation tells you the book is encoded in signs and symbols so why would a person try to point to the MotB and say, "This means your system can't be right because you don't know what it is!" That is silly.

Even futurists don't know what it is even though they have their theories i.e. computer chips etc... No, their eschatology is false because the biblical framework will not allow for their view.

I had to leave the amillennial viewpoint because the Scriptures declare that Jesus came back in the first century. They declare this in many, many places. I realized that my amill position along with the postmillennialists and partial preterists all had the same problem that the dispensational dummies have (I say that affectionately). Scripture doesn't support any of those positions. I would have stayed amill if it hadn't been for that pesky problem of a future second coming and judgment that the Bible contradicts.

I think in the first century ad whether or not the mark is spiritual or literal for Revelation 13 to have been fulfilled then someone(a group of people) would need to have received the mark.

So some one fulfilled Revelation 13:14-18 in the first century who is it? In the first century ad in "wars 2,by Josephus" http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html it describes the reasons and cause leading up to the first Jewish revolt. In Wars 2 it describes the Jews as though they were impious to Rome and it's leaders unlike Revelation 13:14-18 where those who receive the mark and worship the image of the beast the first century Jews involved in the revolt do not. In Revelation 13:17 those who received the mark can buy and sell but in ad66 the Jews began minting their own coins to avoid money with pagan images on them, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish_Revolt_coinage ...

So the acts of the first century Jews involved in the revolt against Rome were (not like/similar) to Revelation 13:14-18 in fact Wars 2 describes the opposite. Rome it's self and it's citizens were not destroyed at the brightness of our Lords coming in the first century ad they continued as a government for hundreds of years afterward and won the 1st,2nd and 3rd revolts instead of loosing(again opposite of the Lords return)... In Romans 13:1-7 and 1Peter 2:13-14 the Apostles told the 1st century Christians to see the powers over them(Rome in the first cen.) as "ordained by God" and to use their money to pay tribute.

So who fulfilled this in the 1st century ad?

 

[Locutus]

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

The reason Paul quotes "Ye are not my people" etc. is because the Israelites were being brought under the one stick of Christ - and he states the remnant was being saved - when Paul states "all Israel will be saved" it means the "all" of the remnant who were still to be gathered through the preaching of the apostles:

Note Paul himself said that this work for Israel would be a "short work".

Even Jesus stated the same:

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Note Paul himself said that this work for Israel would be a "short work".

Even Jesus stated the same:

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I am continually pointing out Revelation 1:1's "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" (meaning, NOT things which will transpire over the course of some 2000 years, as the Historicist view interprets the Book of "Revelation"); corresponding ALSO with Luke 18:8[chpt-17-end] AND Rom16:20's "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (the latter of which connects with 1Cor6:3[14]'s [addressed to/for/about "the Church which is His body"] "we SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" (i.e. a distinct location from that of the previous context Lk18--though same "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time frame). The "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" means, once it starts (not before "SEAL #1 and all that IT connects to) it will conclude IN QUICKNESS and Rev19 (His "RETURN" to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, and the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isaiah 24:21-22 [separated by another very specific time period]) will take place. That hasn't happened yet!

[Matthew 24:29-31 connects with Isaiah 27:12-13, when, it says ISRAEL will be "gathered ONE by ONE" and TO JERUSALEM... (not "AS ONE" as His "ONE BODY" is [IN THE AIR])]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[keep getting logged-off even before I can finish my EDITING *within* the 5-min time limit! ]

 

[Locutus]

I am continually pointing out Revelation 1:1's "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" (meaning, NOT things which will transpire over the course of some 2000 years, as the Historicist view interprets the Book of "Revelation"); corresponding ALSO with Luke 18:8[chpt-17-end] AND Rom16:20's "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (the latter of which connects with 1Cor6:3[14]'s [addressed to/for/about "the Church which is His body"] "we SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" (i.e. a distinct location from that of the previous context Lk18--though same "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time frame). The "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" means, once it starts (not before "SEAL #1 and all that IT connects to) it will conclude IN QUICKNESS and Rev19 (His "RETURN" to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, and the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isaiah 24:21-22 [separated by another very specific time period]) will take place. That hasn't happened yet!

The problem with the above is that John states the time is at hand at the beginning and end of the revelation:

Rev 1:3 ....................which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Not only does John declare the time is at hand twice he emphasizes the book is not in any way sealed, therefore what he wrote was at hand in regards to fulfillment.

 

[delirious]

So, delirious, how do you (or did you) say that the following was fulfilled in 70ad (or whatever): Lk22:30,16,18

...I cannot recall how you've stated these have been played out ([their] "judgING the 12 tribes of Israel" etc), at that first century time period. Thanks.

Luke 21: 31-32, "So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till ALL THINGS take place.

Luke 21 is the Olivet Discourse. Jesus describes a list of things that will happen before His return in His generation. The dispensationalist/futurist will claim that "this generation" means the final generation on earth.

Jesus uses the Greek word for generation 22 times outside the Olivet Discourse. It always refers to His generation. The dispensationalist/futurist has to go against all the weight of evidence in the Scriptures to try and claim a final generation.

Jesus also says ALL THESE THINGS will happen to "this generation".

Luke 21: 12, "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake."

Luke 21: 20, "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near."

In the verses above, Jesus is speaking specifically to His disciples. Not us. They were delivered to synagogues and prisons just like the book of Acts records. We also know that Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman armies and destroyed.

If the futurist wants to claim that not all of these things happened in the first century, but only some of them, that means only SOME of them are left for the futurists "final generation". That means "ALL these things" wouldn't happen in their alleged "final generation" either.

But Jesus says the ALL would happen in "this generation". Since we know some of them happened to the Apostles then we know that they all did by simply using logic. Jesus said when you see these things the kingdom of God is near.

Jesus established the kingdom when He came back in judgment on Jerusalem. The martyred apostles did begin to reign with Him at that point. All saints rule and reign with Him forever.

 

[Locutus]

[keep getting logged-off even before I can finish my EDITING *within* the 5-min time limit! ]

Are you checking the little box that says "keep me logged in"?

 

[Dino246]

TWO of YOU I see did not get my gist of what I was stating here.
My point is that unless God has a purpose, has an intention, making a point, He typically let's "FREE WILL" do its thing.

That is not at all the same thing as "God also does not interfere with humanity unless humanity asks God to."

To me, the BEST EXAMPLE of this is the PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDERS we have medically defined TODAY. Several times in scripture, we see where someone being healed was as simple as Yeshua stating your sins are forgiven, or, the sins of your parents are forgiven. These PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDERS (mental illness - Asperger's - Autism - many many more including Narcissism, psychopathic, deranged) are a result of genetics passed through inheritance. TWO healthy parents with a mentally deformed child.

The fact that 15% of the entire population (8 Billion people +) suffer from some sort of PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER, is PROOF that God allows "Free Will" to serve its purpose than for Him to intervene!!

It's not proof at all. It might perhaps be considered evidence, but the two are not the same thing. In Scripture, physical healing was used in at least one case as confirmation that Jesus had authority to forgive sins, but they were concurrent, not conflated.

For the most part, the enemies of the Hebrews were so because they were enemies of the Hebrew God. The Jews WERE NO THREAT to Rome. Nero was just an insane tyrant. I am not going to claim that God does not use what man's "Free Will" puts into place for His own purpose. But the Jews were easy targets 2,000 years ago. When Yeshua was here, we never read about the Jewish military, because THERE WAS NONE!! It's not like Rome did not know this since they GOVERNED the entire area. This war was a literal Bully picking on a tiny Chump!! Did God use it? The Apostles were killed (but John), the Temple was destroyed, the Jewish people became a scattered nation. 2,000 years later, 9 million Jews return, have renewed their old Mosaic traditions, and have in plans the rebuilding of the Temple. I see God made a point the Jews never forgot, NOT!! I do not see where the Jews 2,000 years ago/today have actually changed, with the exception of technology. In 2,000 years time, the Jews are back to their old ways. I don't see anyone who learned from the 70 A.D destruction, other than Gentiles who are now converts of Christ!!

All of which proves nothing about your assertion regarding the destruction of Jerusalem.