Can people be a Christian and a Karaite Jew simultaneously?

[Grandpa]

What's sad Grandpa, is people only take from this verse, that which they want. Ignoring the first part.
Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

When one simply refuses to enter into the Government of the Kingdom? Or, gets turned around after trying?
It's like the clay saying to the Potter forming it? "I am formed well enough, for ME!" "But, but wait!" Says the Potter. "I'm not even near done with you yet!" "There's more "Word of God", I can instill in you." "Oh yes!" Comes the reply from the vessel. "You are!" "Alright." Says the potter reluctantly. "Come back when you are ready?" Asks the Potter. "Ubetcha!" Says the vessel.
And just like an illegal alien being released to return for his asylum hearing? Never seen again!
As the vessel runs hither and thither seeking out other "partly formed" vessels, of similar mindsets/attitudes.
Welcome to "traditions of man!"

That verse says the government shall be upon His Shoulder.

Not ours.

I think this might be where your misunderstanding begins.

 

[Grandpa]

I don't see how you can separate God into parts for God is one. God is love and law is love in action. Faith, God, love, acting in response to God are all of one piece. If you take out one you wreck the whole. You will just have to go ahead and shake your judging finger at me with a legalist label, but I fundamentally believe in learning all I can about the glorious God who created us and do my best to keep my life in harmony with that God. You call that legalistic law. I call it simply living, for God gave us life and is our all.

As it is explained in the first chapter of Isaiah, Christ does not work for our salvation and Lord when we use what Christ did for us improperly. Isaiah is speaking of the salvation we have in Christ. The proper use of Christ is explained in Isaiah 1:16 "Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil." It goes on to explain that we will then be washed clean as snow.

Christ is for forgiveness of all our sin, and through Him we are pure and righteous. We can't make ourselves pure and righteous. But without our "work"!!! to turn away from sin, (you call that legalistic law) there is no forgiveness. Isaiah 1: 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

The law is commanding you to love. The law is describing what the Holy Spirit does. When you try to work at the law in your own understanding you are not allowing the Holy Spirit to do His Work.

Our job is to abide in Christ by faith. It is not to work at the law. No matter how noble you might think it is.


Christ does not work for our salvation when we use what Christ did for us improperly?? You mean like working at the law and then when you can't do it ask for His Blood to cover your sin each time like the Jews did in the OT with sheep?

 

[kaylagrl]

If you think the sacrificial system is about animals, you simply can not speak of it for you are speaking of something that isn't there. It is the same with your "under the law". If you are speaking of not being under the law as not needing to live for Christ, it is so foreign a meaning that it is speaking of something that isn't there. If you are speaking of being "under the law" as using the law for salvation, then we can argue about it because we would be arguing about the same thing.

Ok, let's go back to the verses I posted,what do they mean to you. When you speak of the "law" what do you mean? The thread is about being a Jew and a Christian. The law to a Jew means something different than to a Christian. OT law is not the same in the NT. Can we get on the same page with the same definitions. Maybe that will help.

 

[Blik]

That verse says the government shall be upon His Shoulder.

Not ours.

I think this might be where your misunderstanding begins.

If it is true what God tells us about Himself then God is God of the Jew, first, and the 'stranger among you'. That would include all gentiles. 2 Tim. 3:16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, Timothy would not agree with your "not ours" statement.

Also, Isaiah the first chapter is not about the government being on the shoulders of Christ, it is speaking of salvation through Christ. The topic you speak of comes later in Isaiah.

 

[Blik]

Ok, let's go back to the verses I posted,what do they mean to you. When you speak of the "law" what do you mean? The thread is about being a Jew and a Christian. The law to a Jew means something different than to a Christian. OT law is not the same in the NT. Can we get on the same page with the same definitions. Maybe that will help.

This only points out had differently we understand. The only difference as far as what God says about law to Jew and gentile is that the Jew takes acting on the law with more seriousness than the gentile because he is saved through his prayers and living for the Lord to replace the sacrificial system that was in place before the destruction of the temple. We do this through Christ.

I cannot believe that God changes. Scripture tells us over and over that God doesn't. It tells us in Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true. It was Paul's teaching they were testing with OT scripture.

If law, or anything in scripture, changed by the division of scripture that man has made of OT and NT then it would not be true that God is eternal. We could not depend on a God who did not stay true to His word.

Some years ago I felt that God did not stay true to His word because of Paul's writing against law and OT writing of the wonders of law. It reduced me to tears, and thank goodness I was retired when this thought came to me. I spend months of many hours a day studying to resolve this to myself. I used any information I could get my hands on including college textbooks on ancient history. I found that God is true, my understanding was false.

 

[kaylagrl]

This only points out had differently we understand. The only difference as far as what God says about law to Jew and gentile is that the Jew takes acting on the law with more seriousness than the gentile because he is saved through his prayers and living for the Lord to replace the sacrificial system that was in place before the destruction of the temple. We do this through Christ.

I cannot believe that God changes. Scripture tells us over and over that God doesn't. It tells us in Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true. It was Paul's teaching they were testing with OT scripture.

If law, or anything in scripture, changed by the division of scripture that man has made of OT and NT then it would not be true that God is eternal. We could not depend on a God who did not stay true to His word.

Some years ago I felt that God did not stay true to His word because of Paul's writing against law and OT writing of the wonders of law. It reduced me to tears, and thank goodness I was retired when this thought came to me. I spend months of many hours a day studying to resolve this to myself. I used any information I could get my hands on including college textbooks on ancient history. I found that God is true, my understanding was false.

So would you consider yourself saved by grace or by works?

 

[Blik]

So would you consider yourself saved by grace or by works?

What a degrading question to ask anyone who tells you they believe in what scripture tells them. Like asking if I consider myself as holy as God.

If you feel free to ask me that, when scripture tells me it is only God who gives salvation, may I ask you if you can ask forgiveness for a sin you do not repent of?

 

[garee]

Rom 7- But now we have been are released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

I would offer as Christians we given the understanding that we have passed from death to newness of spirit life from when we first heard the living word and believed the Holy Spirit of faith . (The un-seen law of faith). Therefore free from the penalty that bind us but not the work of the law it is doubled edged. It works to kill and preserve. It hems us in like a mighty fortress keeping out the enemies .We are not leased fr0m its comfort.

Romans 3:26-28 King James Version (KJV)To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Two laws working together in perfect harmony to one another. (1) The written law scripture or prophecy and (2) the unseen spiritual law, the law of faith they came together as one perfect at the cross. The time of reformation had come

Again, two laws working together in perfect harmony to create one perfect law .I think it is what David was describing below. Not just the letter that kills acting as a moral guide but the spirit of the law that protects us from the accuser of the Christians accusing them falsely day and night day and night .

Psalm 19:6-8 King James Version (KJV) The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

 

[Blik]

I would offer as Christians we given the understanding that we have passed from death to newness of spirit life from when we first heard the living word and believed the Holy Spirit of faith . (The un-seen law of faith). Therefore free from the penalty that bind us but not the work of the law it is doubled edged. It works to kill and preserve. It hems us in like a mighty fortress keeping out the enemies .We are not leased fr0m its comfort.

Romans 3:26-28 King James Version (KJV)To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Two laws working together in perfect harmony to one another. (1) The written law scripture or prophecy and (2) the unseen spiritual law, the law of faith they came together as one perfect at the cross. The time of reformation had come

Again, two laws working together in perfect harmony to create one perfect law .I think it is what David was describing below. Not just the letter that kills acting as a moral guide but the spirit of the law that protects us from the accuser of the Christians accusing them falsely day and night day and night .

Psalm 19:6-8 King James Version (KJV) The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

If you obey law by asking forgiveness of s sin while you are thinking about what to have for dinner you are acting out something but not going by the spirit of what you ask. So could you say that it is wrong to ask for forgiveness because it can be done legalistically?

We are justified by God's grace, not by what we do. So can we take our clean and pure self that Christ has made pure and willfully put ourselves through the same sin? We haven't actually asked for forgiveness in the first place because we plan on keeping on with that sin. In that case God says He will not hear us.

I am not sure just what your post is saying. Am I understanding it correctly?

 

[Grandpa]

If it is true what God tells us about Himself then God is God of the Jew, first, and the 'stranger among you'. That would include all gentiles. 2 Tim. 3:16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, Timothy would not agree with your "not ours" statement.

Also, Isaiah the first chapter is not about the government being on the shoulders of Christ, it is speaking of salvation through Christ. The topic you speak of comes later in Isaiah.

I'm not sure what Timothy would agree to. But scripture absolutely agrees with what I said. And with 2 Timothy 3:16

1 Timothy 1:5-10
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

 

[Sipsey]

So would you consider yourself saved by grace or by works?

Hey there, I’ve been noticing your profile picture and hopefully you will pardon me, but I thought it was a picture of a possum, till I looked a little closer. I like possums so please don’t be offended.

 

[kaylagrl]

Hey there, I’ve been noticing your profile picture and hopefully you will pardon me, but I thought it was a picture of a possum, till I looked a little closer. I like possums so please don’t be offended.

Not offended, she can act like a possum sometimes when she gets mad. lol She is an American Eskimo. If you look them up you'll get a better picture of one.

 

[kaylagrl]

What a degrading question to ask anyone who tells you they believe in what scripture tells them. Like asking if I consider myself as holy as God.

If you feel free to ask me that, when scripture tells me it is only God who gives salvation, may I ask you if you can ask forgiveness for a sin you do not repent of?

What a degrading question to ask anyone who tells you they believe in what scripture tells them.

Boy you sure do like being a victim. I'm asking you to be clear about what you believe. You are using double speak. If you believed what Scripture tells you your answer would be yes,I believe I am saved by grace and you wouldn't have started this tread arguing about Jews and OT law.

If you feel free to ask me that, when scripture tells me it is only God who gives salvation....

Who said God doesn't give salvation? I didn't ask you if God gives salvation. I asked you if you believe you are saved by grace or by the law. You ought to be able to answer it. smh

may I ask you if you can ask forgiveness for a sin you do not repent of?

You may ask me any question that makes sense and has to do with the subject of the law. Your question neither makes sense nor has anything to do with the subject. Try again.

 

[NayborBear]

That verse says the government shall be upon His Shoulder.

Not ours.

I think this might be where your misunderstanding begins.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Corinthians 15
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Whose "shoulders", is the Government on now?

 

[kaylagrl]

What a degrading question to ask anyone who tells you they believe in what scripture tells them. Like asking if I consider myself as holy as God.

If you feel free to ask me that, when scripture tells me it is only God who gives salvation, may I ask you if you can ask forgiveness for a sin you do not repent of?

So I finally did myself a favor folks and looked up what a Karaite Jew believes. The following is what I found...

Karaism is the original faith of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). "Karaism" derives from the Hebrew Karaim meaning "Followers of Scripture"The Creator revealed His will to the Israelite nation in order to serve as a "Light unto the Nations".From its very inception Israel's role has been to teach mankind of the divine will, which endows those who live by it with eternal life, as it is written: "it is a tree of life to those who keep it"

The two large "monotheistic" religions, Christianity[5] and Islam[6], recognize the truth of the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet they compromise the purity of the divine message by adding to God's complete and perfect Word. At the same time, the form of Judaism commonly practiced today is not authentic Judaism but "Talmudism". The Talmudists corrupt the true message of the Hebrew Scriptures by adding the teachings of the Rabbis found in the "Talmud", which they claim were revealed by God.The authentic Hebrew religion is that which is taught by the Creator Himself in the Hebrew Scriptures without addition or subtraction...

Karaites regard the current era of human history as the period of the "Great Exile". The Hebrew Scriptures describe this era and foretell that in it the Nation of Israel will forsake the true way of the Creator for man-made religion.[8] The prophets teach us that this era will end with Israel returning to the Creator under the leadership of the anointed king of the House of David and the entire human race embracing the religion of the Hebrew Scriptures.

In this current era of the Great Exile, prophecy has ceased while the Almighty "hides His face" for the sins of Israel.[10] With no living prophets, the only path to knowledge of the divine is through the Hebrew Scriptures, which contain the complete and perfect instruction of the divine will revealed to the prophets of Israel...


By living in accordance with the divine instruction, men can be redeemed from sin, as it is written: "When the evildoer turns away from all his sins that he has done and shall keep all My statutes and do justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his iniquities that he has done shall no longer be remembered" Ezk.

Karaites maintain that every human being has an obligation to study the Hebrew Scriptures and determine for themselves the correct meaning of the Almighty's commandments based on their own reasoning and understanding.Karaites place no value in the interpretations of the majority or the customs of the forefathers. On the contrary, Scripture teaches us: "Do not go after the majority to do evil"

Karaism is not a "monolithic" faith in which every believer agrees on every detail of understanding of Scripture. Because the burden of interpretation rests on the individual and not a central authority it is inevitable that there will be differences of interpretation and understanding. However this diversity is a strength rather than a weakness and prevents Karaites from getting bogged down with a given interpretation despite the obviousness of its error. This diversity requires the individual Karaite to take personal responsibility for interpreting Scripture, basing his understanding on the merits and logic of a given interpretation. When this method is followed the correct interpretation will generally win out. What unites Karaites together is our common fellowship in the Hebrew Scriptures and desire to live by the pure unaltered instruction of the Creator of the universe.



So this is what this small sect of Jews believe. Now we understand the question of the OP and why they continue to argue everyone who answers them. I know it's a long read but if you wish to understand where the OP is coming from it's worth the moment to read it.

 

[NayborBear]

So would you consider yourself saved by grace or by works?

You 2? Are actually arguing apples and oranges!

One is arguing saved by mercy and grace through faith, IN CHRIST

The other is arguing being a Joint Heir, WITH CHRIST! (not in)

Romans 8
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs WITH Christ (through Christ. NOT IN); if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Apples=saved.
Oranges= Inheriting.

 

[kaylagrl]

You 2? Are actually arguing apples and oranges!

One is arguing saved by mercy and grace through faith, IN CHRIST

The other is arguing being a Joint Heir, WITH CHRIST! (not in)

Romans 8
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs WITH Christ (through Christ. NOT IN); if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Apples=saved.
Oranges= Inheriting.

No, we're on a whole different plane. If the OP believes what I posted Karaite Jews believe. Not even in the same ball park. It seems somehow the OP is trying to mix that cult with some form of Christianity,therefore the confusion. Now I know where he is coming from and why he is arguing as he does.

 

[garee]

If you obey law by asking forgiveness of s sin while you are thinking about what to have for dinner you are acting out something but not going by the spirit of what you ask. So could you say that it is wrong to ask for forgiveness because it can be done legalistically?

We are justified by God's grace, not by what we do. So can we take our clean and pure self that Christ has made pure and willfully put ourselves through the same sin? We haven't actually asked for forgiveness in the first place because we plan on keeping on with that sin. In that case God says He will not hear us.

I am not sure just what your post is saying. Am I understanding it correctly?

I was saying there are two kind of laws that are both necessary and neither are removed. They work together as one perfect law. Some same we are not under the law but under grace. and use that to divide the new testament from the old . The law is not subject to change, the penalty of the law violators is removed by the work of Christ's three day labor of love. The letter of the law the Bible will do its work to leading men to faith the, spirit of the law till the last day .

The penalty is excluded not the work of Christ's faith. Together the school master as one law as what the eyes see scripture the letter of the law. brings us to our unseen teaching master when we do mix faith in what we see or do. One is our teacher in heaven .In that way we call no man good master on earth.

One perfect law described in Psalm 19:7 using the temporal things seen in parables to give us the unseen eternal spiritual understanding hid in parables as the signified language of God .

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

[NayborBear]

No, we're on a whole different plane. If the OP believes what I posted Karaite Jews believe. Not even in the same ball park. It seems somehow the OP is trying to mix that cult with some form of Christianity,therefore the confusion. Now I know where he is coming from and why he is arguing as he does.

Right! Just because this is a Karite "thread." Doesn't negate a "phenomena", that happens quite regularly RIGHT HERE, in BDF! Some refer to it as "hi-jacking." Some can see it as "taking off on a tangent." I'd like to call it "thread drift."

From his replies? He "sounds" like a "Messianic."

And, then again? There are those who just like to argue!

Oh!....I'm sorry....did I say that out loud?

I meant.....debate.

 

[Blik]

I'm not sure what Timothy would agree to. But scripture absolutely agrees with what I said. And with 2 Timothy 3:16

1 Timothy 1:5-10
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

I think you are using these wonderful verses to try to judge me as one who teaches the law without understanding, and to say that it is foolish to read the law as God gives it to us. I can just feel you shaking a judging finger ate me. Despite your judging, I love the 119th Psalm. Despite your judging finger I thoroughly believe in living with Christ and repenting. What is it you call me? A legalist?

Your way of interpreting the Lord has resulted in churches whose members never even consider living a life for Christ, they believe only in accepting all sin. Because Christ forgives us of any sin, they say all sin is acceptable. So our churches are weak. They are not a leavening element as they should be. God says that if they won't take Christ seriously and turn from sin through Him, then God won't hear them.