Not By Works
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Bill,,,some on here do promote OSAS.
I'll post it again for those who don't know what it means:
OSAS:
Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).
This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.
ETERNAL SECURITY:
Eternal Security is a biblical theory; however, there are conditions involved and some refuse to accept those conditions and thus get it mixed up with OSAS.
The N.T. speaks about eternal security. We can be eternally secure in Jesus IF we ABIDE in Him, and CONTINUE to abide in HIM, and IF we follow His teachings which is why He came to us...to teach us how to get to heaven.
This is why the N.T. is full of conditional words such as: IF, CONTINUE, ABIDE, DWELL, BELIEVE in the present tense, do not FALL AWAY, PERSEVERE,,,,etc.
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS:
Perseverance of the saints is a calvinistic theology and is a bit more complicated.
This teaches that God will keep his elected secure and they cannot leave their faith.
This is because God has elected them to be saved and so He will keep them saved.
However, John Calvin did teach that in order to be sure that one is saved he must have the love and willingness to do works. Also, it's difficult for a calvinist to be sure of their salvation because, after all, how could one know for SURE that God chose them? What if they stop doing good works?
This means that only at the END of their life, can they truly know if they were really saved.
This is where the idea comes from that if one DOES LOSE their salvation, it's because they never had it to begin with.
Unless a person really does some studying on the above three doctrine...they will get them all mixed up with each other till their belief no longer makes any sense and they have, in effect, created a belief all their own.
For instance. some that believe in OSAS also believe that is one falls away it means they were never saved to begin with....this idea, instead, comes from Pers. of the Saints...and so all 3 get confused with each other.
I would hope that this would help those reading along to understand the differences and to know better what they believe.
I believe in Eternal Security.
I'll post it again for those who don't know what it means:
OSAS:
Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person "accepts" Jesus, whatever that may mean to him... he believe to be saved forever....NO MATTER what he does in his life, or what type of life he lives.
IOW, he could murder and still be saved...he could not ask forgiveness of sins, and still be saved (as a habit not forgetfulness).
This is an extreme view and is not supported by the N.T. teachings of Jesus, Paul, and the other writers.
ETERNAL SECURITY:
Eternal Security is a biblical theory; however, there are conditions involved and some refuse to accept those conditions and thus get it mixed up with OSAS.
The N.T. speaks about eternal security. We can be eternally secure in Jesus IF we ABIDE in Him, and CONTINUE to abide in HIM, and IF we follow His teachings which is why He came to us...to teach us how to get to heaven.
This is why the N.T. is full of conditional words such as: IF, CONTINUE, ABIDE, DWELL, BELIEVE in the present tense, do not FALL AWAY, PERSEVERE,,,,etc.
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS:
Perseverance of the saints is a calvinistic theology and is a bit more complicated.
This teaches that God will keep his elected secure and they cannot leave their faith.
This is because God has elected them to be saved and so He will keep them saved.
However, John Calvin did teach that in order to be sure that one is saved he must have the love and willingness to do works. Also, it's difficult for a calvinist to be sure of their salvation because, after all, how could one know for SURE that God chose them? What if they stop doing good works?
This means that only at the END of their life, can they truly know if they were really saved.
This is where the idea comes from that if one DOES LOSE their salvation, it's because they never had it to begin with.
Unless a person really does some studying on the above three doctrine...they will get them all mixed up with each other till their belief no longer makes any sense and they have, in effect, created a belief all their own.
For instance. some that believe in OSAS also believe that is one falls away it means they were never saved to begin with....this idea, instead, comes from Pers. of the Saints...and so all 3 get confused with each other.
I would hope that this would help those reading along to understand the differences and to know better what they believe.
I believe in Eternal Security.
Here we have a simple biblical problem.
When Jesus or Paul or the apostles talk about death it is mostly the 2nd death as in the lake of fire.
If one can interpret every mention mention of death as physical death, ofcourse the lost sheep can die physically.
But this is ludicrous. Paul talks about those sowing to the spirit reaping eternal life, while those sowing to the
flesh reaping death. As both groups physically die, he can only be refering to spiritual death or the lake of fire.
Taking for instance Pauls talk about building on the foundation of Christ with hay and stubble, is not abandoning
the faith but not doing good things. And it is certainly not continuing in sin. But then unbeleivers cannot let go
of their salvation ticket even though they deny its meaning or inheritence, walking like Jesus.
When Jesus or Paul or the apostles talk about death it is mostly the 2nd death as in the lake of fire.
If one can interpret every mention mention of death as physical death, ofcourse the lost sheep can die physically.
But this is ludicrous. Paul talks about those sowing to the spirit reaping eternal life, while those sowing to the
flesh reaping death. As both groups physically die, he can only be refering to spiritual death or the lake of fire.
Taking for instance Pauls talk about building on the foundation of Christ with hay and stubble, is not abandoning
the faith but not doing good things. And it is certainly not continuing in sin. But then unbeleivers cannot let go
of their salvation ticket even though they deny its meaning or inheritence, walking like Jesus.
Funny thing about JW's was when a couple came to our door.
I talked about the cross and the transforming experience of Jesus and His life in our hearts.
The guy was worried I was getting through to the lady, he closed down the conversation.
Now that is the power of truth and reality. To know what people stand for and how Jesus speaks to
our hearts, so we overcome. And people are very polite and nice in evangelistic mode, but you see
the truth when things get real.
Take this forum as an example. Share about being yoke to Christ and walking in His steps, suddenly
lots of other things get shared that are not part of the subject and imply a lack of knowing Jesus.
This is strange, as the message is listen to Jesus, follow Him and His word, let them dwell in your
heart night and day, and let the Holy Spirit rule all your decisions. This is His way, His truth and His
life, Praise His glorious name.
I talked about the cross and the transforming experience of Jesus and His life in our hearts.
The guy was worried I was getting through to the lady, he closed down the conversation.
Now that is the power of truth and reality. To know what people stand for and how Jesus speaks to
our hearts, so we overcome. And people are very polite and nice in evangelistic mode, but you see
the truth when things get real.
Take this forum as an example. Share about being yoke to Christ and walking in His steps, suddenly
lots of other things get shared that are not part of the subject and imply a lack of knowing Jesus.
This is strange, as the message is listen to Jesus, follow Him and His word, let them dwell in your
heart night and day, and let the Holy Spirit rule all your decisions. This is His way, His truth and His
life, Praise His glorious name.
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If that's the case Fran then said people need to be called out and be told to read Romans 5-6.
But those who like you (and not being nasty here towards you) who post the same as you do cannot and will not quote people who say
"we can accept Jesus, be saved for ever no matter what we do, no need to repent of it and still be saved"
Why is that?
You mention the one of the big ones.
Why is it all ways the big ones?
What about the little ones?
Gossip, gluttony.
Sin is sin, and all sin has the same consequences.
I was actually accused on this thread a few days back by someone with exactly the same thing you talk about above.
When I said no it's not an excuse to sin they totally ignored my response.
Then tried to push their agenda.
I used to use the term OSAS, but over the last couple of years, being on this site I have now changed my mind.
The reason being is that I'm sick of people who accuse me of teaching that it's ok to sin, there is a fancy word for it, tried to look it up but can't find it.
But I do believe that a person who confesses Jesus as lord, believes he rose from the dead will be saved by their faith and not by their works.
They will persevere, even during their darkest moments, even in their deepest sin.
I find it very sad that because I believe this then I promote it is ok to sin, along with those say that bapism saves or speaking in tongues means that you are saved.
Accusations accusations and conditions and conditions.
But those who like you (and not being nasty here towards you) who post the same as you do cannot and will not quote people who say
"we can accept Jesus, be saved for ever no matter what we do, no need to repent of it and still be saved"
Why is that?
You mention the one of the big ones.
Why is it all ways the big ones?
What about the little ones?
Gossip, gluttony.
Sin is sin, and all sin has the same consequences.
I was actually accused on this thread a few days back by someone with exactly the same thing you talk about above.
When I said no it's not an excuse to sin they totally ignored my response.
Then tried to push their agenda.
I used to use the term OSAS, but over the last couple of years, being on this site I have now changed my mind.
The reason being is that I'm sick of people who accuse me of teaching that it's ok to sin, there is a fancy word for it, tried to look it up but can't find it.
But I do believe that a person who confesses Jesus as lord, believes he rose from the dead will be saved by their faith and not by their works.
They will persevere, even during their darkest moments, even in their deepest sin.
I find it very sad that because I believe this then I promote it is ok to sin, along with those say that bapism saves or speaking in tongues means that you are saved.
Accusations accusations and conditions and conditions.
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I was the same for many years Hev. And I started praying for deliverance after viewing Sheepfold on tv. It was a deliverance ministry. I knew if I could get there, I would be delivered. I started attending a coffeehouse in the city where I worked. And the Lord sent a young man to there who did teachings on the authority and power of Jesus.
I had a spirit of grief from certain life experiences. Now depression can't touch me no matter what happens.
I had a spirit of grief from certain life experiences. Now depression can't touch me no matter what happens.
Glad for you!-
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I am rejoicing and praising God for opposition.
It is through declarations of foundations that things change, because the truth can be stated.
God is never stopped, or undermined. We do not need to help the Lord but serve His will to
see His fruit and work come about. As Esther was told, if we do not submit God will use another
way.
In a society where the innocent become guilty, it is not the innocent who need to worry most,
but everyone, because if the innocent suffer, almost everyone is in a worst state and nothing works.
Compromise with evil kills all. But listening to some, we are doomed to compromise and only the
deceivers actually talk about victory while failing like everybody in sin and hypocrisy.
But once you say any evil is ok, you let every evil prosper. It is the problem of compromise and
blackmail. If they knew you did ...... you must do ........
But God according to some has not changed this with His people, who have no standards or strength
or victory, and walk in sexual immorality, lying, cheating, murdering, stealing, dishonouring parents,
envious, greedy, self indulgent and everything else, just a belief of transformation and heaven when
we die, when we will become like heaven.
This is not my knowledge of people brought out of addictions, prostitution, murder, theft, fraud etc
but actually real victory and transformation and life changing direction into the ways of Jesus and
His teaching. So it is very odd that ex-church goers should claim with such authority hypocrisy is Gods
way, when it is just their way and their unbelief in the cross.
It is through declarations of foundations that things change, because the truth can be stated.
God is never stopped, or undermined. We do not need to help the Lord but serve His will to
see His fruit and work come about. As Esther was told, if we do not submit God will use another
way.
In a society where the innocent become guilty, it is not the innocent who need to worry most,
but everyone, because if the innocent suffer, almost everyone is in a worst state and nothing works.
Compromise with evil kills all. But listening to some, we are doomed to compromise and only the
deceivers actually talk about victory while failing like everybody in sin and hypocrisy.
But once you say any evil is ok, you let every evil prosper. It is the problem of compromise and
blackmail. If they knew you did ...... you must do ........
But God according to some has not changed this with His people, who have no standards or strength
or victory, and walk in sexual immorality, lying, cheating, murdering, stealing, dishonouring parents,
envious, greedy, self indulgent and everything else, just a belief of transformation and heaven when
we die, when we will become like heaven.
This is not my knowledge of people brought out of addictions, prostitution, murder, theft, fraud etc
but actually real victory and transformation and life changing direction into the ways of Jesus and
His teaching. So it is very odd that ex-church goers should claim with such authority hypocrisy is Gods
way, when it is just their way and their unbelief in the cross.
My Jesus finished His work on earth, and empowered His disciples with His Spirit to do the works He did, and to teach what He taught.
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. John 14:12
Did Jesus preach the gospel to you?
JPT
The version you listed as OSAS i dont believe that either. The bible says that someone who hates his brother is a mudrerer and no eternal life is in him!
You say you believe in eternal security i still dont understand how you can say that since you said salvation can be lost, then how was it eternal security? Im not the smartest guy in the world, so maybe im just misunderstanding
Anyhow. All those conditions you said like IF,CONTINUE, abide, dwell, believe present tense, fall away, etc.
It does say fall away yes like in that parable they fell away when temptation came. But it doesnt say where they fell away from, so we can only assume.
If you can show us a verse that says they fell from faith or salvation, then we would all agree with you i think.
You say you believe in eternal security i still dont understand how you can say that since you said salvation can be lost, then how was it eternal security? Im not the smartest guy in the world, so maybe im just misunderstanding
Anyhow. All those conditions you said like IF,CONTINUE, abide, dwell, believe present tense, fall away, etc.
It does say fall away yes like in that parable they fell away when temptation came. But it doesnt say where they fell away from, so we can only assume.
If you can show us a verse that says they fell from faith or salvation, then we would all agree with you i think.
It's called antonianism.
And it's not biblical,,,just like OSAS is not biblical. It can't be. One cannot say they're Christian and in the same breath say it's upsetting when I say we MUST or it's NECESSARY to obey God....because it's true that we have to obey Him
So saying that the word MUST is offensive and/or the word NECESSARY is offensive, is, by default, agreeing with OSAS.
The persons who do this may not even be aware that they're doing it...but maybe they should BECOME aware???
Maybe we could start to declare that salvation is NOT BY WORKS,,,but is by faith and faith is a gift from God.
Maybe we could then go on to talk about our WALK with God....
Is it necessary to obey Him?
Could we pay no attention to our life,,,sin all we want to,,,not even feel like we have to confess our sins....and still be saved???
I don't think so.
I could mention names right here and now....but unlike some I don't think it's nice to speak about persons personally....I'm here to discuss doctrine and the bible and theology...not someone's personal relationship with God.
BTW,,, Relationship requires TWO persons....TWO that make an effort. That's why it's a two-way street....a RELATIONSHIP. Try telling your wife she did it all and so YOU don't have to do anything to contribute toward the relationship....I doubt the relationship would last long.
I don't know what you mean by the big ones....sin is sin, just as you've stated.
And no wonder that person didn't pay attention to your response....
Those that believe in OSAS believe a lie and are deceived about what God wants from us.
They believe in an incorrect doctrine that could cause one to lose their salvation.
You think I'm here because I don't have any shirts to iron??
I agree with you that you cannot add anything to salvation.
Like baptism...or speaking in tongues.
But obeying God is different....this is not ADDING something...this is doing what God wants us to do.
And I'm happy that you stopped using the term OSAS. Maybe one day we'll all speak the same language and understand each other better.
I'm not calling anyone out...
I post for those reading along that are trying to learn about their faith and HOW TO STAY SAVED.
Yes...the bible teaches that we can become lost after salvation...
but, as you know how I believe...it's not from sin. (it could be from a life of sin...God will not be mocked).
won't get into that again...
And it's not biblical,,,just like OSAS is not biblical. It can't be. One cannot say they're Christian and in the same breath say it's upsetting when I say we MUST or it's NECESSARY to obey God....because it's true that we have to obey Him
So saying that the word MUST is offensive and/or the word NECESSARY is offensive, is, by default, agreeing with OSAS.
The persons who do this may not even be aware that they're doing it...but maybe they should BECOME aware???
Maybe we could start to declare that salvation is NOT BY WORKS,,,but is by faith and faith is a gift from God.
Maybe we could then go on to talk about our WALK with God....
Is it necessary to obey Him?
Could we pay no attention to our life,,,sin all we want to,,,not even feel like we have to confess our sins....and still be saved???
I don't think so.
I could mention names right here and now....but unlike some I don't think it's nice to speak about persons personally....I'm here to discuss doctrine and the bible and theology...not someone's personal relationship with God.
BTW,,, Relationship requires TWO persons....TWO that make an effort. That's why it's a two-way street....a RELATIONSHIP. Try telling your wife she did it all and so YOU don't have to do anything to contribute toward the relationship....I doubt the relationship would last long.
I don't know what you mean by the big ones....sin is sin, just as you've stated.
And no wonder that person didn't pay attention to your response....
Those that believe in OSAS believe a lie and are deceived about what God wants from us.
They believe in an incorrect doctrine that could cause one to lose their salvation.
You think I'm here because I don't have any shirts to iron??
I agree with you that you cannot add anything to salvation.
Like baptism...or speaking in tongues.
But obeying God is different....this is not ADDING something...this is doing what God wants us to do.
And I'm happy that you stopped using the term OSAS. Maybe one day we'll all speak the same language and understand each other better.
I'm not calling anyone out...
I post for those reading along that are trying to learn about their faith and HOW TO STAY SAVED.
Yes...the bible teaches that we can become lost after salvation...
but, as you know how I believe...it's not from sin. (it could be from a life of sin...God will not be mocked).
won't get into that again...
First of all I don’t use the phrase “lose salvation”, but rather say the person will become lost.
Secondly, of course we are to obey our Lord.
His Gospel
His commandments
His doctrine
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4
JPT
Secondly, of course we are to obey our Lord.
His Gospel
His commandments
His doctrine
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4
JPT
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Hi PH,
I'm just going to say that everything is done by the power of the Holy Spirit...
When I first became born again, a really long time ago, I believed so much in Jesus alone that I thought He came to show us a new way to live (which He did) and that's all.
As I studied more and came to understand more...I did realize that He also came to set up His church. With a small c.
Why? Because without a church we would have become like lost sheep....just each one going their own way and it would all soon end. Humans need some organization...they need leadership ... In Mathew 28 Jesus told the Apostles to go into all the world and preach and teach and baptize. THIS is how His church spread .... again little c---the organization.
I know what @justpassinthrough means.
Jesus is no longer here. He said He had to leave so that the Holy Spirit could come....
but the N.T. also tells us that if we see a lost brother, we should go to him and bring him back to the fold.
Galatians 6:1 And it says to pray for those not committing a sin leading to death,
1 John 5:16
I think this is what the other poster means.
I'm just going to say that everything is done by the power of the Holy Spirit...
When I first became born again, a really long time ago, I believed so much in Jesus alone that I thought He came to show us a new way to live (which He did) and that's all.
As I studied more and came to understand more...I did realize that He also came to set up His church. With a small c.
Why? Because without a church we would have become like lost sheep....just each one going their own way and it would all soon end. Humans need some organization...they need leadership ... In Mathew 28 Jesus told the Apostles to go into all the world and preach and teach and baptize. THIS is how His church spread .... again little c---the organization.
I know what @justpassinthrough means.
Jesus is no longer here. He said He had to leave so that the Holy Spirit could come....
but the N.T. also tells us that if we see a lost brother, we should go to him and bring him back to the fold.
Galatians 6:1 And it says to pray for those not committing a sin leading to death,
1 John 5:16
I think this is what the other poster means.