Not By Works
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Hi 50C1AL0N3, please speak to your friend about his child, the child's sin is forgivable and both of you need to minister God's word to him and search for answers to help this 25yr old young adult.
I know I do not understand his circumstance very much but with God there is always a way praise God. Joni Eareckson Tada is a Christian woman who may be able to help everybody move forward and help this young person.
I'm going off line right now but I will pray that we can talk more tomorrow.
JONI EARECKSON TADA: In my situation, being a quadriplegic, I never had time to think about cancer, it always happened to other women. ... An athletic teenager, Tada broke her neck in a diving accident when she was 17.
Her spinal chord was severed, and she became paralyzed from the shoulders down.Jun 7, 2013
I know I do not understand his circumstance very much but with God there is always a way praise God. Joni Eareckson Tada is a Christian woman who may be able to help everybody move forward and help this young person.
I'm going off line right now but I will pray that we can talk more tomorrow.
JONI EARECKSON TADA: In my situation, being a quadriplegic, I never had time to think about cancer, it always happened to other women. ... An athletic teenager, Tada broke her neck in a diving accident when she was 17.
Her spinal chord was severed, and she became paralyzed from the shoulders down.Jun 7, 2013
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So then are fruits save us?. . .
NO ! IT is the Evidence that WE WERE SAVED the very moment the Holy Spirit came in, and in fact we were predestined that we would receive JESUS as LORD, before TIME BEGAN. I am not YELLING at you, that is CRITIC EMPHASIS, because it it TOO important for you to MISS.
2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
ONLY Born Again believers have that AGAPE LOVE, that the HOLY SPIRIT POURED INTO OUR HEARTS, see Rom 5:5.
1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,
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My question was:
"Ok then you are among those who believe we can continue in sin and still be servants to sin and still be saved?"
Your answer:
"Nope."
But previously I asked:
"My question was(referring to Abraham):
"And if he had failed to offer his son and continued to fail when tried subsequently then what would his status/condition be?" "
Your response:
"Still saved."
Has your position changed?
"Ok then you are among those who believe we can continue in sin and still be servants to sin and still be saved?"
Your answer:
"Nope."
But previously I asked:
"My question was(referring to Abraham):
"And if he had failed to offer his son and continued to fail when tried subsequently then what would his status/condition be?" "
Your response:
"Still saved."
Has your position changed?
It's you who remains in error. *In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works to validate his claim. (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
The Amplified Classic Bible reads - 14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]? The answer is NO because it is not real faith, but an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
In CONTRAST to Abraham’s faith, which was real faith that was evidenced by works. Now the work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, (Romans 4:2-3) but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous. (James 2:21,24)
Why do you continue to insist on fighting against the truth?
The Amplified Classic Bible reads - 14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]? The answer is NO because it is not real faith, but an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
In CONTRAST to Abraham’s faith, which was real faith that was evidenced by works. Now the work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, (Romans 4:2-3) but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous. (James 2:21,24)
Why do you continue to insist on fighting against the truth?
"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons."(James 2:1)
It is the type of faith possessed by brethren which is being discussed.These persons are believers.
It continues,referring to brethren and their actions(works):
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?"(James 2:14-16)
It is all about the brethren and the outworking of their faith.James goes on to give a hypothetical case of one having faith but not having any works in relation to what was said before and hence says:
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"(James 2:17-20)
He seals the case(or so he thought)by using the father of faith,Abraham,as the example for all that was said so far.All had faith but the difference with Abraham was:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."(James 2:21-24)
His faith was live,not because he had more than others but because he did what God commanded him to d
thers,have a faith that is dead,not because it was any less than Abraham's but because they failed to do what was required of them by God.The way you and others try to claim,the faith of those who say they have faith,was not genuine, make faith into the work and a source of boasting which you despise so much.Those who have "mere" faith will not be saved neither will those who only have,"professing" faith.But what would you say is the amount of faith out of 100% that will get us saved?Is 50% the pass mark or maybe 60% or do I need 100%. What is the standard and who determines this?
I am with you on this dcon, scripture tells us Satan was cast into the earth. Rev. 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Eph. 3:10 "To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,"
We have a heavenly realm right here on earth where holy angels and demons reside.
Yes stones, you are right about Satan having already lost the war. He now is used like a tool for us to overcome, just like he will during the little season after the millennium.
Eph. 3:10 "To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,"
We have a heavenly realm right here on earth where holy angels and demons reside.
Yes stones, you are right about Satan having already lost the war. He now is used like a tool for us to overcome, just like he will during the little season after the millennium.
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Paul said that we have to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice, HOLY and ACCEPTABLE to God which is our SPIRITUAL ACT OF WORSHIP. (1 Corinthians 12:1) and then goes on to teach about the BODY OF CHRIST and spiritual gifts.
...Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. (1 john 3:16)
That is why Paul said;
...For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE ON HIM, BUT ALSO TO SUFFER FOR HIM, Philippians 1:29
So we see here that just as Jesus suffered when He sacrificed Himself in obedience to GOD, His apostles and the prophets before them also suffered and were killed. Did they suffer and died for doing good because of their obedience to the faith?
...It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 1 Peter 3:17-18
...Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I FILL UP IN MY FLESH WHAT IS STILL LACKING IN REGARD TO CHRIST'S AFFLICTIONS, for the sake of his body, which is the church. Colossians 1:24
They suffered and laboured for our sake and not for their own salvation but for ours, we reap the benefits of their labour and that's what those in the body of Christ do, they work for the salvation of the unbelievers for they also were once unbelievers who benefited from the Labour of those before them. IOW "paying it forward."
...“My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE, so that the sower and the reaper may be GLAD TOGETHER. Thus the saying ‘ONE SOWS AND ANOTHER REAPS’ is true. I sent you TO REAP WHAT YOU HAVE NOT WORKED FOR. Others have done the hard work, and YOU HAVE REAPED THE BENEFITS OF THEIR LABOR.” John 4:34-38
I would therefore say and believe that;
...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead. James 2:26
And regarding eternal security, I still can't find it in the bible but eternal salvation IN CHRIST JESUS is our LIVING HOPE.
...Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as WE WAIT EAGERLY FOR OUR ADOPTION AS SONS, the redemption of our bodies. FOR IN THIS HOPE WE WERE SAVED. BUT HOPE THAT IS SEEN IS NO HOPE AT ALL. WHO HOPES FOR WHAT HE ALREADY HAS? But if we hope for what WE DO NOT YET HAVE, we wait for it patiently. Romans 8:23-25[/QUOTE]
ArguelessActive member 6 minutes ago New #88,882 mailmandan said: Amen! Christ’s finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28) ...During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. Hebrews 5:7-10 Why? Ask Paul not me. ...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID. 1 John 2:3-6 Why?...ask John, not me. ...in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 8:4-14 ...Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Galatians 6:7-10 Why again?...ask Paul, not me. ... Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” Matthew 19:16-17 Still asking why...ask Jesus whom you CLAIM as your LORD or MASTER but you treat Him as your SERVANT. ...“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? Luke 6:46 ...“You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not. Malachi 3:13-18 Now if you're still asking why, take Paul's brotherly advise to you. ...All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Philippians 3:15-16 And King Solomon's WISDOM concludes: ...Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
What is man's purpose of existence?
....For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10
Do you glorify God by doing evil or by just claiming to BELIEVE?
....so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name.” Romans 15:6-9
Jesus glrified GOD, why won't you?
...Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. 1 Peter 2:12
Is it not the whole duty of man to OBEY God? (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)
Aren't you the righteousness of God IN CHRIST JESUS?
... God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that IN HIM we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21
Would you rather be an instrument of righteousness that leads to HOLINESS and resulting to ETERNAL LIFE? (Romans 6:16-22)
...Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. (1 john 3:16)
That is why Paul said;
...For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE ON HIM, BUT ALSO TO SUFFER FOR HIM, Philippians 1:29
So we see here that just as Jesus suffered when He sacrificed Himself in obedience to GOD, His apostles and the prophets before them also suffered and were killed. Did they suffer and died for doing good because of their obedience to the faith?
...It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 1 Peter 3:17-18
...Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I FILL UP IN MY FLESH WHAT IS STILL LACKING IN REGARD TO CHRIST'S AFFLICTIONS, for the sake of his body, which is the church. Colossians 1:24
They suffered and laboured for our sake and not for their own salvation but for ours, we reap the benefits of their labour and that's what those in the body of Christ do, they work for the salvation of the unbelievers for they also were once unbelievers who benefited from the Labour of those before them. IOW "paying it forward."
...“My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE, so that the sower and the reaper may be GLAD TOGETHER. Thus the saying ‘ONE SOWS AND ANOTHER REAPS’ is true. I sent you TO REAP WHAT YOU HAVE NOT WORKED FOR. Others have done the hard work, and YOU HAVE REAPED THE BENEFITS OF THEIR LABOR.” John 4:34-38
I would therefore say and believe that;
...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead. James 2:26
And regarding eternal security, I still can't find it in the bible but eternal salvation IN CHRIST JESUS is our LIVING HOPE.
...Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as WE WAIT EAGERLY FOR OUR ADOPTION AS SONS, the redemption of our bodies. FOR IN THIS HOPE WE WERE SAVED. BUT HOPE THAT IS SEEN IS NO HOPE AT ALL. WHO HOPES FOR WHAT HE ALREADY HAS? But if we hope for what WE DO NOT YET HAVE, we wait for it patiently. Romans 8:23-25[/QUOTE]
ArguelessActive member 6 minutes ago New #88,882 mailmandan said: Amen! Christ’s finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28) ...During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. Hebrews 5:7-10 Why? Ask Paul not me. ...We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is A LIAR, and THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID. 1 John 2:3-6 Why?...ask John, not me. ...in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. Romans 8:4-14 ...Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Galatians 6:7-10 Why again?...ask Paul, not me. ... Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” Matthew 19:16-17 Still asking why...ask Jesus whom you CLAIM as your LORD or MASTER but you treat Him as your SERVANT. ...“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? Luke 6:46 ...“You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not. Malachi 3:13-18 Now if you're still asking why, take Paul's brotherly advise to you. ...All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Philippians 3:15-16 And King Solomon's WISDOM concludes: ...Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
What is man's purpose of existence?
....For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10
Do you glorify God by doing evil or by just claiming to BELIEVE?
....so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name.” Romans 15:6-9
Jesus glrified GOD, why won't you?
...Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. 1 Peter 2:12
Is it not the whole duty of man to OBEY God? (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)
Aren't you the righteousness of God IN CHRIST JESUS?
... God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that IN HIM we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21
Would you rather be an instrument of righteousness that leads to HOLINESS and resulting to ETERNAL LIFE? (Romans 6:16-22)
Heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.
<https://www.biblehub.com/romans/8-17.htm>
<https://www.biblehub.com/romans/8-17.htm>
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Physical death? Sure. Spiritual death? NEVER.
God will chastise a wandering believer, even, as a last resort, to the point of taking them home, (1 Corinthians 11:30) but they can never be lost.
A good example would be the believer who was involved in gross sin and Paul said, " Hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. " (1 Corinthians 5:5)
Jesus Himself said of the Christian; "He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has (present tense) everlasting life, and shall not (future tense) come into judgment; but is passed (past tense) from death unto life." (John 5:24)
Even the believer who has no good works to offer will remain saved: "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:14-15)
The "reward" being crowns and exalted positions in Christ's Kingdom. "Loss" being the loss of rewards given at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The "fire" being God's earthly chastisement.
God will chastise a wandering believer, even, as a last resort, to the point of taking them home, (1 Corinthians 11:30) but they can never be lost.
A good example would be the believer who was involved in gross sin and Paul said, " Hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. " (1 Corinthians 5:5)
Jesus Himself said of the Christian; "He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has (present tense) everlasting life, and shall not (future tense) come into judgment; but is passed (past tense) from death unto life." (John 5:24)
Even the believer who has no good works to offer will remain saved: "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:14-15)
The "reward" being crowns and exalted positions in Christ's Kingdom. "Loss" being the loss of rewards given at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The "fire" being God's earthly chastisement.
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