Why I now have issues about "once saved, always saved"

[Grandpa]

I am OK if you want to prove eternal security 100% irrefutable - but please prove it before you make the statement . . .

From the passage in John 10 you give we have this:

These sheep are hearing Jesus' voice and He is knowing them and they are following him. Now if you take that statement of verse 27 you have a situation where that sheep can know he is saved and has eternal life - call it "eternal security" if you like.

The sheep of which verse 27 is true will never perish and no man will pluck it out of the Father's hand - yes and amen!


I have no idea how you get that because Jesus "knows them" that this means "sheep will always be sheep". The fact of the matter is that in real life sheep might not always be sheep. If the sheep dies, its body rots, and then the nutrients are absorbed into the nearby grass, and then if a goat may eat the "sheep" -- and now your sheep is a goat!

Those verses do not say that a sheep is always a sheep. They simply say what these sheep are doing and thus what their eternal security is.

So what if you have a person who is not hearing Jesus' voice, is not known by Jesus, and is not following Jesus? Is he/she a sheep that has eternal life. This verse surely does not say so. You will have to go elsewhere to prove that idea. (and I don't think you will find that idea in the Bible).

Sorry: Go to entry #35 to see the person I was answering

My sheep hear my voice and I give them eternal life.

But if they stop being my sheep I take my gift of eternal life back?

Nope. There is no suggestion of how a person stops being a sheep or of the Lord taking back His Gift. That suggestion comes from anti-faith philosophy which is not true.

 

[Chester]

My sheep hear my voice and I give them eternal life.

But if they stop being my sheep I take my gift of eternal life back?

Nope. There is no suggestion of how a person stops being a sheep or of the Lord taking back His Gift. That suggestion comes from anti-faith philosophy which is not true.

Interesting, interesting indeed. You are right - In those verses in John 10:37-40 there is no suggestion of how a person stops being a sheep or of the Lord taking back His gift.

But I might also add this - There is also no suggestion that once a sheep always a sheep. There is also no statement that once the Lord has given the gift that He will not take it back. That suggestion comes from those who believe in OSAS.

This text - John 10:37-39 gives some wonderful deep truth for the sheep who is hearing the voice of the Shepherd and is following Him. I suggest we do not take away fromt he sacredness of the text by adding to what it says.

 

[Grandpa]

Interesting, interesting indeed. You are right - In those verses in John 10:37-40 there is no suggestion of how a person stops being a sheep or of the Lord taking back His gift.

But I might also add this - There is also no suggestion that once a sheep always a sheep. There is also no statement that once the Lord has given the gift that He will not take it back. That suggestion comes from those who believe in OSAS.

This text - John 10:37-39 gives some wonderful deep truth for the sheep who is hearing the voice of the Shepherd and is following Him. I suggest we do not take away fromt he sacredness of the text by adding to what it says.

There absolutely IS a suggestion that once Christ gives His Gift He will not take it back.

How long does Eternal Life last? If Christ were to give a temporary gift based on performance He would have said so.

But He said He gives Eternal Life.

 

[Grandpa]

Interesting, interesting indeed. You are right - In those verses in John 10:37-40 there is no suggestion of how a person stops being a sheep or of the Lord taking back His gift.

But I might also add this - There is also no suggestion that once a sheep always a sheep. There is also no statement that once the Lord has given the gift that He will not take it back. That suggestion comes from those who believe in OSAS.

This text - John 10:37-39 gives some wonderful deep truth for the sheep who is hearing the voice of the Shepherd and is following Him. I suggest we do not take away fromt he sacredness of the text by adding to what it says.

But the more important issue is this...

You are right

Yessss, finally!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There absolutely IS a suggestion that once Christ gives His Gift He will not take it back.

How long does Eternal Life last? If Christ were to give a temporary gift based on performance He would have said so.

But He said He gives Eternal Life.

That would not be a gift though, that would be a wage, or more precisely, a payment in advance for work not yet done, do the work you keep it, dont do the work you have to pay it back.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Cool! Let's beat this horse again!
Anyone wanna jump in about King Jimmy version? Or speaking in tongues?
It's like peeling an onion around here. The more layers you peel away the more the same it stays and you begin to cry.
It don't matter how much scripture you post, or in how many languages you post it. People grab hold of the ones that support their claim and run with it; at the disposal of the rest of the Bible. If I started taking scissors to live debates so I can cut out the pages people ignor to support their position. They'd end up with three or four verses in their hands and the rest of the Bible in the trash.
Anyway don't kick dead horses you will get rotted horse guts on your Tony Llamas.

 

[Lanolin]

I think its a church thing probably introduced by some church denomination to ensure their memberships count to their church boards. Like statistics. Oh you came to church once, got saved, so you must always be saved.

Its not biblical phrase though so I wouldnt take any notice of it.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Rotting flesh, hurt lives, broken futures, lost joy and aspirations, depression, moaning, emptiness.
This is the result of sin, death. And this sin, one drop contaminates the whole.

So why do people want to compromise with poison and death?
Because they do not know how to obtain victory and freedom.

Romans 7 describes this dilemma.

But Paul declares the victory,

"the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:4

The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; Rom 8:6

Many recognise the failure in their lives and their desire to live differently, yet fail continually.
Recognising their faith in Jesus and their struggle, the promise of victory at the end, is often the light in the tunnel that keeps them going.

But Jesus offers more, if we are prepared to listen and walk in His ways.
And it is this tension which defines our lives and who we actually are.

So OSAS rather than a heresy is the fruit of failed realisation of the promise in peoples hearts.

Until they come to real faith and seeing Jesus, a quick belief fix is the best they can hope for.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

My sheep hear my voice and I give them eternal life.

But if they stop being my sheep I take my gift of eternal life back?

Nope. There is no suggestion of how a person stops being a sheep or of the Lord taking back His Gift. That suggestion comes from anti-faith philosophy which is not true.

I find these words very odd. Eternal life is no a prize, given from one to another, and if you hold it
when the music stops you have won.

It is about an eternal connection with mortal man, where His people connect and commune with Him.
It is a sharing at the deepest level we can share, and knowing the essence of creation itself.

Like all living things it can die, but why would the eternal once connected with the mortal die, unless
the mortal denied its reality.

But this language is too deep for most, and it is just a parcel they hope they carry.

So who is right. Both. But not for the same reasons. Not surprisingly then the answer we seek, clear clean
definitions does not work, but rather we need to walk on His ways. Do we trust our Lord and what He tells us?

 

[Adstar]

If our salvation is not permanent why bother with Christianity? There are plenty of other Religions and Philosophies where our
eternal security depends on our works and moral performance.

It does not depend on our works and moral performance..

It depends on our Belief and Faith..

 

[Grandpa]

I find these words very odd. Eternal life is no a prize, given from one to another, and if you hold it
when the music stops you have won.

It is about an eternal connection with mortal man, where His people connect and commune with Him.
It is a sharing at the deepest level we can share, and knowing the essence of creation itself.

Like all living things it can die, but why would the eternal once connected with the mortal die, unless
the mortal denied its reality.

But this language is too deep for most, and it is just a parcel they hope they carry.

So who is right. Both. But not for the same reasons. Not surprisingly then the answer we seek, clear clean
definitions does not work, but rather we need to walk on His ways. Do we trust our Lord and what He tells us?

Since you CAN'T attain it on your own but it has to be GIVEN to you by Christ, that makes Eternal Life a gift.

And it really is very simple.

If you think you can lose it you are correct, you can. Because you didn't have faith in the Lord to begin with, you had faith in yourself that you could attain and do everything "required". And then if you stop, poof, its gone.

If you think you can't lose it you are correct, you can't. Because it is God who keeps you, through thick and thin, when YOU fail He does not.

So it just depends on what you believe and how you got there. If you believe in God you get OSAS. If you believe in men then you can't have OSAS. You get religion instead.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Since you CAN'T attain it on your own but it has to be GIVEN to you by Christ, that makes Eternal Life a gift.

And it really is very simple.

If you think you can lose it you are correct, you can. Because you didn't have faith in the Lord to begin with, you had faith in yourself that you could attain and do everything "required". And then if you stop, poof, its gone.

If you think you can't lose it you are correct, you can't. Because it is God who keeps you, through thick and thin, when YOU fail He does not.

So it just depends on what you believe and how you got there. If you believe in God you get OSAS. If you believe in men then you can't have OSAS. You get religion instead.

What strikes me is some claim they are saved to eternity, yet live like they are of the world.
When you talk to them, what comes out is just worldly views and ideas.

If you ask do you know Gods presence in your walk, or are you yoked to Christ and learning from Him,
they glaze over. If you ask about their understanding of meeting God, odd experiences get retold which
are not relevant. If you read about how we should live, they complain it is a burden that cannot be carried.

But mention OSAS, of course they are saved to eternity. So I wonder if these theology packages help at all
or just provide false security to people who need a real encounter with the living God.

 

[Chester]

If you think you can lose it you are correct, you can. Because you didn't have faith in the Lord to begin with, you had faith in yourself that you could attain and do everything "required". And then if you stop, poof, its gone.

So I see you are saying that I am going to hell . . . (since you say I didn't have faith in the Lord to begin with)?

Or am I not understanding what you mean here?

 

[Sketch]

Since you CAN'T attain it on your own but it has to be GIVEN to you by Christ, that makes Eternal Life a gift.

And it really is very simple.

If you think you can lose it you are correct, you can. Because you didn't have faith in the Lord to begin with, you had faith in yourself that you could attain and do everything "required". And then if you stop, poof, its gone.

If you think you can't lose it you are correct, you can't. Because it is God who keeps you, through thick and thin, when YOU fail He does not.

So it just depends on what you believe and how you got there. If you believe in God you get OSAS. If you believe in men then you can't have OSAS. You get religion instead.

That's good.
Those who don't believe in OSAS are lost. By virtue of their own cohosen bad doctrine.
Like A. W. Tozer said, Idolatry is as simple as a wrong concept of God.

 

[Grandpa]

What strikes me is some claim they are saved to eternity, yet live like they are of the world.
When you talk to them, what comes out is just worldly views and ideas.

If you ask do you know Gods presence in your walk, or are you yoked to Christ and learning from Him,
they glaze over. If you ask about their understanding of meeting God, odd experiences get retold which
are not relevant. If you read about how we should live, they complain it is a burden that cannot be carried.

But mention OSAS, of course they are saved to eternity. So I wonder if these theology packages help at all
or just provide false security to people who need a real encounter with the living God.

For sure a theology can give false security.

If someone tells you that you are saved and consequently tells you that you are OSAS that can give a false sense of security. Such as, say a religion that believes water baptism saves and after doing so tells people they are OSAS. They could go through life thinking they are saved when they really aren't and that they have no worries they are OSAS.

But this doesn't detract from the Truth that when someone comes to Christ and receives Rest from their work and Salvation that this Rest and Salvation is never revoked by Christ. Once God saves a person He doesn't wish that He didn't do it. The person who is saved may wonder why they were saved or that maybe God made a mistake, but God isn't like men in that regard.

 

[Grandpa]

So I see you are saying that I am going to hell . . . (since you say I didn't have faith in the Lord to begin with)?

Or am I not understanding what you mean here?

You don't think you can lose salvation.

You just THEORETICALLY think it may be possible. To someone else.

You think if a person does something, which you would never do, they would lose their salvation.

Theoretically you could do the same thing as they could which would cause a loss of salvation. But the odds are forever in your favor.


See, the thing is if you believe in God and His Sovereignty then it is Gods Power that keeps someone saved. There is no power that can overcome that and cause someone to not be saved. This would cause someone to always come back to Christ to lean on Him for strength and salvation.

But the actual coming against of this faith is what can put the seeds of doubt into a persons mind and cause them to think MAYBE they aren't saved anymore. Maybe they displeased God so immensely that He tossed them from the Kingdom back into the abyss.

But God already knew what you would do and what you wouldn't do and what His Influence would be in your life. God is not surprised.

 

[Grandpa]

That's good.
Those who don't believe in OSAS are lost. By virtue of their own cohosen bad doctrine.
Like A. W. Tozer said, Idolatry is as simple as a wrong concept of God.

I didn't mean to put it exactly like that but it is Faith in God that saves us.

When our Faith is truly tried will we doubt and fall away or will we know it is just a tribulation in a long line of tribulations that lead to Glory.

How well do you know the Lord Jesus Christ? Well enough to assume that He will never leave you nor forsake you?

Or not quite that well?

 

[Chester]

See, the thing is if you believe in God and His Sovereignty then it is Gods Power that keeps someone saved. There is no power that can overcome that and cause someone to not be saved. This would cause someone to always come back to Christ to lean on Him for strength and salvation.

But the actual coming against of this faith is what can put the seeds of doubt into a persons mind and cause them to think MAYBE they aren't saved anymore. Maybe they displeased God so immensely that He tossed them from the Kingdom back into the abyss.

But God already knew what you would do and what you wouldn't do and what His Influence would be in your life. God is not surprised.

I like your grit and your humor and your drastic skill of backtracking to get around to the other side of the bush.

Now I am finding out more things I believe that I never knew before: (Quote below of what you said about me)
You don't think you can lose salvation.
You just THEORETICALLY think it may be possible. To someone else.
You think if a person does something, which you would never do, they would lose their salvation.
Theoretically you could do the same thing as they could which would cause a loss of salvation. But the odds are forever in your favor.

All I can say is you are a great guy, and I like you even if we disagree. And though you don't even nearly get what I believe, you have gotten closer to understanding what I believe (and what the Bible really says! ) than most anyone else on CC!

 

[Absolutely]

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

How does a branch in Christ NOT bear fruit?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

I suppose it is not a branch that is in Christ but a branch that has decided it is up to him to keep himself saved and produce fruit of himself.

So if you don't believe in OSAS you are probably right. The only way you are OSAS is if you Trust in Christ.

A lot of christians are living in sin.
They are the ones that need OSAS to be true.
Those walking with Jesus that are overcomers,never worry about those incidentals.They know for a fact they are saved.
So much time wasted on trying to see if our sinful carnal nominal powerless christianity can be salvaged into slipping by ,into barely making heaven.
Which is the real OSAS argument.
Why would a solid believer worry about OSAS?

 

[Absolutely]

Now if only we had free will to begin with!

If you believe in foreknowledge, you belive in predestination.

WHY would God bother saving people who He knows would go APOSTATE? In the arminian VIEW?

Arminianism is RIDICILOUS.

Here is some good comedy:

Then paul was confused because he said "....and many suffer shipwreck"