Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
@GodsGrace101 you said that since Jesus put conditions on salvation its not a gift but a prize in the end.

Well, WHY does the bible say free gift in Romans 6:23?
And Romans 5:15-18, Ephesians 2:8-9 make the point too!
You're going to have to do some of the work yourself H.

Study the difference between Justification and Sanctification.

You could start here. It'll help you to understand everything...


vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv


Justification
Simply put, justification is God’s act of pardoning the sinner and declares the sinner as righteous in His sight. This is possible through the sinner’s faith in Jesus Christ,(3)(4) who was punished for the sins of everyone so that anyone who believes in him will no longer suffer the consequences of sin.(5) In other words, Christ became the sinner in your place so that you will become righteous in the sight of God,(6) which makes you justified by God’s standards.

So to answer the question, “Can you be saved?” Yes, through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did.(7) Your justification or being made right with God is through the obedience of Christ(8), and not through your good works(9). Because of Christ’s obedience and death on the cross, your past, present, and future sins are forgiven, and you are no longer subject to the punishment that was once due.(10)

Sanctification
Sanctification means “to be set apart.” Morally, to be sanctified means to be pure or holy while spiritually, to be sanctified means to be set apart for God. God set you apart from wrongdoings to be more like Him and Jesus Christ. Although a sinner is forgiven and made righteous by justification through faith in Christ, sin continues to remain but it is one thing for sin to remain in you and quite another for you to remain in sin. This is where sanctification comes in.

Sanctification begins with justification. But, while justification is God’s act of forgiving your sins and counting you righteous through faith in Jesus Christ, sanctification is the continual work of the Holy Spirit in the believer in order for you to conform to the image of Christ, who is God’s son. And, while justification is a one-time act of God, sanctification is a continual process until you are taken to be with the Lord.

Once the sinner is justified through faith in Jesus Christ, the faith must produce outward results, which is good works.(11) Actions or good works that come from having faith in Christ is what sets real faith apart from a mere profession of faith.(12) While your good works will not justify or make you right with God, good works are the evidence of your faith in Christ as well as in God.

So, how can you produce good works? The Holy Spirit is the believer’s helper as He works within you to conquer sinful desires and inclinations as well as produce fruits of right actions or righteousness.(13) This is the process of sanctification.

Summary of differences:
  • Justification is a one-time act of God, which makes it complete and finished.(14) Sanctification is a continual process since a believer is not completely freed from sin until the day of resurrection.
  • Justification addresses the sinner’s guilt for committing sins. Sanctification addresses sin’s power and corruption over a believer’s life.
  • Justification is God’s declaration that a sinner is righteous through the work of Jesus Christ. Sanctification is God’s transformation of a believer’s whole being, that is the mind, will, behaviors, and affections through the work of the Holy Spirit.
  • To be justified, your good works are immaterial. To be sanctified, your good works are a necessary evidence of your faith in Christ, which the Holy Spirit enables you to do as you continually die everyday in your sin.
  • Justification gives you the privilege as well as the boldness to enter heaven. Sanctification gives you the meekness for heaven, and allows you to fully take joy in abiding there.
Understanding the differences between justification and sanctification may seem like an academic study of religion that could intimidate believers of the Christian faith, whether new or old. However, learning the distinction between the two terms could help you strengthen your faith and grow in your Christian walk.



Read more: Difference between Justification and Sanctification | Difference Between | Difference between Justification vs Sanctificationhttp://www.differencebetween.net/mi...stification-and-sanctification/#ixzz5ftCeeazh



Read more: Difference between Justification and Sanctification | Difference Between | Difference between Justification vs Sanctificationhttp://www.differencebetween.net/mi...stification-and-sanctification/#ixzz5ftCPTqnk
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
The early church did.

The roman catholic church didnt even exist for centuries after Jesus' death burial and resurrection

When you read "catholic" in church history, its nothing remotely close to what we have today as "roman catholic"
Who made up the early church?
Where did those people come from?

What does catholic mean in early history?

BTW, there's no such term as Roman Catholic.
The right way to say it is: Catholic of the Latin Rite.

But...looks like history doesn't even matter.

When was the N.T. put together....
and WHO put it together.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,633
113
@CS1 Come and ban these trolls! They are some catholic trolls with PENANCE in their names and DISLIKING everything for no reason whatsoever.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Salvation has conditions - you need to hear it, you need to respond, you need to confess, you need to act, you need to
repent, you need to believe, you need to trust, you need to obey, you need to follow, you need to love, you need to abide

Think of each denomination and the statements of faith which qualify one as a member of that church.
Start a conversation with a believer, and cross one, just one of their lines. Suddenly one is not "saved" or part of their
group or fellowship, but an outsider.

Maybe people have gone to church so long, the long list is obvious, so ofcourse everyone follows it, and so salvation has
no conditions.

It is like saying life goes on without effort - except, breathing, eating, drinking, moving, having support, shelter, relationships,
sleep etc. The words actually mean something else. Life goes on without us having to know all the mechanisms other than
doing the basics.

In this light, salvation cannot be earnt, ie. balancing out good deeds to outweigh our sinful deeds.
But how does a worldly sinful person become a mature brother or sister in Christ?
And what is a mature man or woman in the Lord? A minister in large conferences with their personal jet?
So we have to earn salvation?

What makes you think you can do even one work which will allow you to earn eternal life?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,458
13,397
113
58
Tell us! What does believe in our heart mean?
Those who teach salvation by works tend to ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" in Romans 6:16 and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on the merits of their works.

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.
 

Goodnewsman

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2016
710
102
43
You make serious accusations.
Can you back them up?

WHERE was my behavior deplorable?
Could you post it please?

And...

What IS the proof that you're saved?
Callling people names?
Feeling hate toward your brother Christians?
Feeling you could sin all you want to and still be saved?

What?
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15 KJV

I guess though if you are a brother hating murdering "Christian" you still have eternal life. According to the OSAS
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,633
113
What do YOU think it means?
I dont think........ I know!

It means a SIMPLE belief,faith,trust,reliance upon Jesus. Like a dog would trust its owner! Like I would trust my mom to pick me up way back then! ........... BUT MORE since this is Jesus we're talking about!
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
@CS1 Come and ban these trolls! They are some catholic trolls with PENANCE in their names and DISLIKING everything for no reason whatsoever.
LOL
They dislike because they don't agree.
Not everyone likes to post....
This is what I've been saying all along.

There are MANY who agree but do not post.
Nothing wrong with that H.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sin is a heart issue. What do you mean?
I am suprised you do not understand

If at any moment, my heart does not desire to serve or love because i am tired, or think I Am to busy, or i am in a hurry and not patient, or anything to put self over any other person, it is sin,

We can do righteous acts according to the law. Yet those acts still be sin, because of our heart and why we do this acts.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I dont think I know

It means a SIMPLE belief,faith,trust,reliance upon Jesus. Like a dog would trust its owner! Like I would trust my mom to pick me up way back then! ........... BUT MORE since this is Jesus we're talking about!
It's the same.
Good response.

Now tell us what you think it means to BELIEVE in Jesus....
What happens when you BELIEVE in someone?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
You judged motive FRAN.....you cannot see the heart of any man and to judge motive = wrong...and no...our doctrine is good......your's on the other hand........not so much because your root is corrupt......faith plus anything = false
I am convinced some want to believe there is value is labelling others.
Look at Gods list of genealogy of Jesus.
Many were not good people, who lived lives that made sense.
But they were people who came to faith, who took actions that demonstrated their faith
and God blessed and called them His own.

What matters is peoples faith in God and their actions that came from this.
Without faith, they would have done nothing, and without the actions, their faith would be meaningless.

Who is our judge? Jesus. To whom do we answer? Jesus.
Yet it would appear some desire otherwise.

Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
James 4:11

Strangely the above verse implies we are called to keep the law and not to judge it.
This is odd to many who claim they are free to sin and are forgiven, yet in being slaves to righteousness we are not free to sin.

But then how are rebellious sinners able to discern the word of God or know His will?
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15 KJV

I guess though if you are a brother hating murdering "Christian" you still have eternal life. According to the OSAS
That's exactly right.

I do think it's really important to know the difference between OSAS, Eternal Security and Perseverance of the Saints.

There's no way OSAS is biblical and we've all proved it many times over.
Those who want to hear will hear.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,572
9,091
113
Second question???? You did not address it at all, just pretended you got asked a different question, you did not answer the first question either. Always the same sadly, big noises made then a refusal to answer

The second question was BTW
Will a person stand condemned on the day of judgement for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth?

Your response:
On the 2nd question, I may be wrong, but I do NOT believe that those who do NOT confess Jesus as Lord (God) will be saved.

Better tov just say yes or no, which was impossible for you, I understand
First question was
If a person agreed with you as the essence of Christ, what title must they give him to be in a saved state according to what is written all over the NT

As you refuse to answer, I am placing you on ignore
Might as well ignore away. You live in an echo chamber anyway.

Those that are not born again will be condemned. It's not standing on Jesus Words that saves you. It's JESUS that saves you!

After you have been saved, THEN you can stand on Jesus's Words.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,633
113
It's the same.
Good response.

Now tell us what you think it means to BELIEVE in Jesus....
What happens when you BELIEVE in someone?
It depends. If someone tells you the sky is blue and you cant see it, to BELIEVE is to think it truly is the case that the sky is blue.
If someone tells you to put your right shoe on first every morning, if you believe him, you will do it.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,458
13,397
113
58
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15 KJV

I guess though if you are a brother hating murdering "Christian" you still have eternal life. According to the OSAS
Oxymoron and straw man argument. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
 

GodsGrace101

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2018
2,225
517
113
I am suprised you do not understand

If at any moment, my heart does not desire to serve or love because i am tired, or think I Am to busy, or i am in a hurry and not patient, or anything to put self over any other person, it is sin,

We can do righteous acts according to the law. Yet those acts still be sin, because of our heart and why we do this acts.
You could say such silly things EG.
Like when you ask how many sins it takes to become lost.

What does any of the above have to do with salvation?
Didn't you know that salvation is a heart issue?

Jeremiah 31:33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
113
I am suprised you do not understand

If at any moment, my heart does not desire to serve or love because i am tired, or think I Am to busy, or i am in a hurry and not patient, or anything to put self over any other person, it is sin,

We can do righteous acts according to the law. Yet those acts still be sin, because of our heart and why we do this acts.
This is a very hard morality. It is sinful to be tired, or to sleep or to submit to human needs.
And equally I am bound to the desires of others and what they require over my obligations.

This sounds like slavery, and condemnation for being human.

In this world, even in heaven there would be no righteousness or acknowledgement of limitations.
If you link guilt to such a world view, it would be described as a self persecution complex.

I have never found in the law of God is such an ethic laid out. I would be happy if you could find one
and show me. If not, I think you need some help.