Not By Works

[Hevosmies]

My view from day one has always been consistent..........I personally believe this is the 4 ways the word of God is applicable unto a lost man when it is proclaimed....

a. The first guy which is the MANY and broad road are LOST <---Most go this route

b. The second guy receives the word with joy, is saved but has no spiritual growth and because of no growth will eventually due to circumstance fall away to the world.....

c. The third guy receives the word, is saved, but allows the weeds of the world to choke out his production and the fruit he bears is choked down by the weeds of worldliness

d. The fourth guy receives the word, is saved, grows and matures and produces an abundance......

Within the saved today we can find ALL three

a. Saved with no spiritual growth,remains immature and easily offended
b. Saved yet worldly with choked out growth and crappy fruit
c. Saved, faithful and bearing lots of fruit

I will remind every ONE that ALL three above by faith into the son have done the WORK of the HEAVENLY FATHER in belief.

That is my view..........I cannot side step the words received with joy and the fact that the seed SPROUTED

Paul and Apollos

ONE planted, one watered <----WHO causes the SEED to sprout-->NO ROOT equals NO GROWTH, yet the SEED did indeed sprout

Thanks for answering. You answered what i wanted which was: fall away to/from what and you said fall away to the world

THAT ANSWERED my question. No argument there.

HOWEVER: can you also explain the "believe..... FOR A WHILE" part? that makes it sound like they stopped believing (cause no root) and only believers have eternal security!

Im not nitpicking, just want to hear your view on that, then i'll just agree or agree to disagree. Dont think you'd be upset with me believing 2 of the soils are saved!

 

[dcontroversal]

yes, the Word begins to bear fruit inside someone when they hear and understand it,

but, that does not mean that the fruit will manifest itself outwardly right away.

for example, someone can be a drunk for 20 years, hear and receive the Gospel one day, and never drink again. another can be the same, and hear and believe the Gospel, and struggle for years to beak the addiction. is one more saved than the other? we do not know.

so, you see, if you did not have the judgemental additude you would not be continuing obsessing over how long it takes for the internal Holy Sprit to begin to show outward signs.

AMEN...................you know....an oak tree is an oak tree from the moment it sprouts from an acorn.....it takes about 20 to 25 years before it bears 1 acorn...............Passion fruit vines propagated by either method take two to three years to reach maturity, flower and begin to bear fruit. In general, yellow passion fruit vines grow faster, fruit more quickly and produce larger crops. The fruit of both yellow and purple varieties takes two to three months to ripen.

But hey.....we live in the era of fast food and the I want it now generation......and the funny thing......I do not recall using the words, every believer or all believers...............anyway......whatevzzz

 

[posthuman]

He saved us from all eternity at the point of us receiving our glorified body. God is outside of time.

if God is truly outside of time why would i imagine His salvation is confined within time?

 

[posthuman]

Many will say in that day.....

I will be face down..

To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
(Romans 14:4) ​

my hope is completely in Him ♥

 

[dcontroversal]

Thanks for answering. You answered what i wanted which was: fall away to/from what and you said fall away to the world

THAT ANSWERED my question. No argument there.

HOWEVER: can you also explain the "believe..... FOR A WHILE" part? that makes it sound like they stopped believing (cause no root) and only believers have eternal security!

Im not nitpicking, just want to hear your view on that, then i'll just agree or agree to disagree. Dont think you'd be upset with me believing 2 of the soils are saved!

I cannot get around the simple fact that the seed SPROUTED which shows LIFE and the fact that when we are talking spiritual life it is BORN from above by incorruptible SEED and the irrevocable GIFT of faith and life.

JESUS is the source of the faith<--men have it given in measure by GOD and the bible states that JESUS begins it, finishes it, and completes it......

NO ONE will ever convince me in view of the above truths that a man can have the seed of FAITH sprout to life and then lose salvation by unbelief or falling away from belief......WHY do I say this....because of the following truth which was written unto saved, immersed church members by an apostle that INCLUDES himself....

IF WE believe NOT, he ABIDES FAITHFUL because HE cannot deny HIMSELF

The righteousness, faith and blood of CHRIST has been applied by faith.....CHRIST cannot deny this truth and he will HONOR his agreement with US....the GIFT is IRREVOCABLE and the SEED is INCORRUPTIBLE

and in three of the four listed in the parable the SEED has been brought to life

 

[posthuman]

if God is truly outside of time why would i imagine His salvation is confined within time?

what i mean is, the revealing of Him to us is within our time-like experiential existence, but our Salvation is in Him, before the creation of the world, and He is eternal, from everlasting to everlasting -- if scripture says ((and it certainly does)) that i 'have been saved' that i 'am saved' and that i 'will be saved' and this magnificent gift is to be found in Him who was, who is and who is to come, what in the world am i thinking if i confine so great a salvation to a future?

before Him all things are bare and transparent, and seeing that ((from my finite time-like experiential perspective)) He will redeem my flesh, does He not already see me perfected, in the time of His choosing? and forevermore afterwards! for with one sacrifice He has perfected forever those who are being made holy. He speaks of that which is not as though it is, even me, and you, knowing all things, the end from the beginning. having been chosen to be conformed to His image, shall i not also be conformed to see as He sees? as He sees, we have been chosen in Him from before the beginning, to be blameless before Him to the praise of His glory.

 

[gb9]

AMEN...................you know....an oak tree is an oak tree from the moment it sprouts from an acorn.....it takes about 20 to 25 years before it bears 1 acorn...............Passion fruit vines propagated by either method take two to three years to reach maturity, flower and begin to bear fruit. In general, yellow passion fruit vines grow faster, fruit more quickly and produce larger crops. The fruit of both yellow and purple varieties takes two to three months to ripen.

But hey.....we live in the era of fast food and the I want it now generation......and the funny thing......I do not recall using the words, every believer or all believers...............anyway......whatevzzz

I already told the master fruit inspector this- my pecan tree did not make good pecans this year due to 20+ inches of rain above average.

but, as he himself was forced to admit, the pecan tree is still a pecan tree because it is rooted in the life-giving soil.

as a country boy from Georgia , I understand how things grow, and bear fruit.

 

[unclesilas]

Moses is with the Father as he appeared with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration.

A small point, and not one really for this thread, however:

No one(no one) has ever enterted Heaven, except the one who came from Heaven, the Son of man John3:13

Though some mention Elijah, it is best not to build a doctrine on one verse of scripture(scripture does not say Enoch went to Heaven) especially as it would contradict Christ's words and much other scripture. And of course, there is more than one heaven according to the bible

 

[Macabeus]

yes, the Word begins to bear fruit inside someone when they hear and understand it,

but, that does not mean that the fruit will manifest itself outwardly right away.

for example, someone can be a drunk for 20 years, hear and receive the Gospel one day, and never drink again. another can be the same, and hear and believe the Gospel, and struggle for years to beak the addiction. is one more saved than the other? we do not know.

so, you see, if you did not have the judgemental additude you would not be continuing obsessing over how long it takes for the internal Holy Sprit to begin to show outward signs.

So if a person struggles with one sin, they are utterly barren?

No

 

[Macabeus]

I already told the master fruit inspector this- my pecan tree did not make good pecans this year due to 20+ inches of rain above average.

but, as he himself was forced to admit, the pecan tree is still a pecan tree because it is rooted in the life-giving soil.

as a country boy from Georgia , I understand how things grow, and bear fruit.

We are not pecan trees. This is called making an analovy walk on all fours

 

[dcontroversal]

I already told the master fruit inspector this- my pecan tree did not make good pecans this year due to 20+ inches of rain above average.

but, as he himself was forced to admit, the pecan tree is still a pecan tree because it is rooted in the life-giving soil.

as a country boy from Georgia , I understand how things grow, and bear fruit.

He has had a personal vendetta against me because I rightfully said that it takes years of growth and maturity for one to bear fruit....I did not say ALL and or qualify it in any way.....and he has incessantly mouthed about it.........I have no time for idiocy

 

[unclesilas]

yes, the Word begins to bear fruit inside someone when they hear and understand it,

but, that does not mean that the fruit will manifest itself outwardly right away.

for example, someone can be a drunk for 20 years, hear and receive the Gospel one day, and never drink again. another can be the same, and hear and believe the Gospel, and struggle for years to beak the addiction. is one more saved than the other? we do not know.

so, you see, if you did not have the judgemental additude you would not be continuing obsessing over how long it takes for the internal Holy Sprit to begin to show outward signs.

Scripture tells us we are made alive with Christ even when wee are dead in transgression/sinEph2:5, and our righteousness is faith in Christ. And I take the point, an alcoholic could be instantly delivered , or for another it may take time. In saying that though, I would not feel comfortable myself with the idea a person could remain an alcoholic for years. Sometimes they get drunk and sometimes they do not(is that what you mean, or as they are an alcoholic they always get drunk, not sure exactly what you mean?)
In my view, God starts with the things he considers most important that need changing once you get saved, I would think drunkenness would be very high on the list

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes I understand.

My point is that it is not "doctrine" that saves, however of course doctrine is absolutely important I agree, for sake of bringing others into a personal relationship with Jesus, we have to have the right message so that others can trust and believe and false doctrine in the end is lies.

It is Jesus that saves, He is Truth, we come to Him and lay down our self-righteousness thinking we can save ourselves.

Is that doctrine?

Some people know the story, but they have not made it personal to them.

That is an act of trust, of faith

Now, I will admit I find it rather interesting you responded, considering your defense of Catholicism

You know there was a time when the majority of those who claimed to believe in Christ, believed like us.

Now I have seen a dramatic change to the opposite. And now I think we are seeing these verses being fulfilled:


2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
3 First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
4 saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (HCSB)
3 For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new.
4 They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (HCSB)
3 If anyone teaches other doctrine and does not agree with the sound teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the teaching that promotes godliness,
4 he is conceited, understanding nothing, but has a sick interest in disputes and arguments over words. From these come envy, quarreling, slander, evil suspicions,
5 and constant disagreement among people whose minds are depraved and deprived of the truth, who imagine that godliness is a way to material gain.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 (NRSV)
1 You must understand this, that in the last days distressing times will come.
2 For people will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, brutes, haters of good,
4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power. Avoid them!

Colossians 2:4 (HCSB)
4 I am saying this so that no one will deceive you with persuasive arguments.


WE ARE THERE. EVEN SO COME LORD JESUS!

 

[Hevosmies]

Guys i want to ask this from all of you reading this:

Do you LIKE doing righteousness? Do you like loving your enemies? Do you like turning the other cheek?

I heard in a sermon that if not, you've never been born again!

Well unfortunately for someone like me, the answer to all those questions is an honest NO. I absolutely hate turning the other cheek when someone offends me. i'd like to tell them how it is, and if they slap me literally, i'd like to KO them.

Over all, listening through that sermon, just made me feel like an unsaved devil, really. Its like, all the qualities that a born again Christian SHOULD HAVE, i do by the skin of my teeth (if thats what the saying was, i forgot the english proverb).

I'll create a fake situation: someone offends me, I wont say anything back to them, and i'll ask God to bless them in prayer, BUT in the mean while im in my mind cussing them out constantly. Then I ask God to forgive me for that, then the SECOND i've said amen, i think about the same things again. IT IS FRUSTRATING TO SAY THE LEAST. I do believe in Jesus and that He shed His blood on the cross for my sins and that its the only payment for my sins......

I dont know if its the STREEEETS that i come from, where i've learned all the wrong things and molded my thinking wrongly, but shouldnt God take care of that for saved people? Make it a JOY to be do righteousness? Instead of a pain!??

Can someone answer my questions honestly. Tell me how it is. PS: i dont believe this is derailing thread, SINCE its related to being born again.

Mark 7:6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

IS MY HEART FAR FROM THE LORD??

Matthew 23:27-28
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Am i full of hypocrisy and wickedness on the inside???

 

[UnderGrace]

Scripture tells us we are made alive with Christ even when wee are dead in transgression/sinEph2:5, and our righteousness is faith in Christ. And I take the point, an alcoholic could be instantly delivered , or for another it may take time. In saying that though, I would not feel comfortable myself with the idea a person could remain an alcoholic for years. Sometimes they get drunk and sometimes they do not(is that what you mean, or as they are an alcoholic they always get drunk, not sure exactly what you mean?)
In my view, God starts with the things he considers most important that need changing once you get saved, I would think drunkenness would be very high on the list

You ever worked on skid row?

 

[UnderGrace]

A small point, and not one really for this thread, however:

No one(no one) has ever enterted Heaven, except the one who came from Heaven, the Son of man John3:13

Though some mention Elijah, it is best not to build a doctrine on one verse of scripture(scripture does not say Enoch went to Heaven) especially as it would contradict Christ's words and much other scripture. And of course, there is more than one heaven according to the bible

I do agree.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Our relationship with the Father is not guaranteed or simple.
Consistency and knowing how dangerous the Lord is for us, is the first step of wisdom.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Yes, but your using this to attack OSAS, so how else would i think

Either moses lost his salvation

Or his missed out on blessing which God wanted to give him on earth, because of his sins, but is in heaven

Thanks for proving it was he second option.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He has had a personal vendetta against me because I rightfully said that it takes years of growth and maturity for one to bear fruit....I did not say ALL and or qualify it in any way.....and he has incessantly mouthed about it.........I have no time for idiocy

Is he still here? After he said he was leaving? Him and Fran are two peas in a pod.

 

[unclesilas]

You ever worked on skid row?

No, but I have a cousin who is an alcoholic. In the natural sense, I completely understand what it would take for an alcoholic to be delivered. But the cross of Christ is not weak, and who would feel comfortable with Christians constantly getting drunk?

 

[posthuman]

Our relationship with the Father is not guaranteed or simple.
Consistency and knowing how dangerous the Lord is for us, is the first step of wisdom.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

not guaranteed?
can we not trust the Lord?