Not By Works

Macabeus · Feb 13, 2019

I agree. Works do not save period. God's grace alone saves, Sola gratis, through faith alone, Sola fidei. And works are evidence of salvation and also a blessing and a gift

The reason I responded to you the way I did is because there are folks here that believe that saying works are evidence of salvation, it is mixing faith and works.

Now someone is going to call me a liar, and I'm going to have to post another link again. Three, two, one...

Historyanswers · Feb 13, 2019

if its now irrevocable , who is trying to steel you out of his hands, making you an outcast, or scaring you about death and condemn nation, and think there prayers are being heard. only words rite.

Macabeus · Feb 13, 2019

UnderGrace said:

You're one of the very few who can disagree with someone without calling names and launching personal attacks

I did not start negative responses until I was called names numerous times.

I have been called a liar and deceiver numerous times, but they can only pin one thing on me. A mistake in reading, that was not only misunderstood by me but also by another poster, (mailmandan understood the question, we both thought it said " give scriptures for faith as a gift". Which leads me to believe the post was editted

But even if not, you can go back and see by my posts that I thought I was responding to faith as a gift question, and DC knew this

On top of that, I apologized for the error. Then he brought it up again. I apologized again for the mistake, and he brought it up multiple times afterward, saying I was a liar. A misunderstanding is not a lie

People have misread my posts numerous times, and I did not call them liars

All the other supposed lies I supposedly told do not stick, because I have provided quotes and post numbers for every claim.

If anyone wants to deny this, name a lie that I told, and I will provide the post to prove my claim on it

Plus, they cannot agree to disagree, they have to call you a scripture twister, deceiver, etc for saying things like good works are a gift of grace, a view that is held by men like Calvin, Spurgeon, Wesley, Matthew Henry, etc. Not that their view makes it so, but it's not like my view falls outside of orthodoxy.

So if anyone thinks I am being a jerk, I am only answering false accusations and personal attacks
,

Macabeus · Feb 13, 2019

This will be my last post on this website. Arguing about God's word is unproductive and sinful, and yes I know that I too am as guilty as anyone God bless to all

UnderGrace · Feb 13, 2019

@GodsGrace101

Macabeus said:

Yes all belief in the work of Jesus apart from personal works is saving belief.

Those that argue "they were never really believers" are once again putting in preconceived ideas not in the text.

One can fall away from the faith, as in the "dead" faith James writes about, also written in the letters to the Hebrews, a type of faith that is inoperative, however this does not mean it is non existent.

Interesting to note that

G868
ἀφίστημι
aphistēmi

Which simply means to withdraw oneself

Those represented by the rocky soil believe and are thus saved according to Jesus’ explicit statement a verse earlier that believing brings salvation.

Scripture is clear that when the word "saved" is used with regards to eternal life, it is the irrevocable contract of the new convenant by God's sovereign decree.

UnderGrace · Feb 13, 2019

Well I think that is more of a guy thing, is that sexist

.....oops there goes my political correctness.

Macabeus said:

You're one of the very few who can disagree with someone without calling names and launching personal attacks

I did not start negative responses until I was called names numerous times.

I have been called a liar and deceiver numerous times, but they can only pin one thing on me. A mistake in reading, that was not only misunderstood by me but also by another poster, (mailmandan understood the question, we both thought it said " give scriptures for faith as a gift". Which leads me to believe the post was editted

But even if not, you can go back and see by my posts that I thought I was responding to faith as a gift question, and DC knew this

On top of that, I apologized for the error. Then he brought it up again. I apologized again for the mistake, and he brought it up multiple times afterward, saying I was a liar. A misunderstanding is not a lie

People have misread my posts numerous times, and I did not call them liars

All the other supposed lies I supposedly told do not stick, because I have provided quotes and post numbers for every claim.

If anyone wants to deny this, name a lie that I told, and I will provide the post to prove my claim on it

Plus, they cannot agree to disagree, they have to call you a scripture twister, deceiver, etc for saying things like good works are a gift of grace, a view that is held by men like Calvin, Spurgeon, Wesley, Matthew Henry, etc. Not that their view makes it so, but it's not like my view falls outside of orthodoxy.

So if anyone thinks I am being a jerk, I am only answering false accusations and personal attacks
,

UnderGrace · Feb 13, 2019

Macabeus said:

You know you just need to give this place a break from time to time, you can go the news section we argue there too but mostly about politics so it is more fun.

UnderGrace · Feb 13, 2019

Well, funny when this happened to me initially coming here I was shocked, now I do not even care at all.

But I do disagree that works are a gift, I only believe salvation is a the gift, however God does give faith to use His gifts like prophecy which the scripture does also talk about..

Macabeus said:

You're one of the very few who can disagree with someone without calling names and launching personal attacks

I did not start negative responses until I was called names numerous times.

I have been called a liar and deceiver numerous times, but they can only pin one thing on me. A mistake in reading, that was not only misunderstood by me but also by another poster, (mailmandan understood the question, we both thought it said " give scriptures for faith as a gift". Which leads me to believe the post was editted

But even if not, you can go back and see by my posts that I thought I was responding to faith as a gift question, and DC knew this

On top of that, I apologized for the error. Then he brought it up again. I apologized again for the mistake, and he brought it up multiple times afterward, saying I was a liar. A misunderstanding is not a lie

People have misread my posts numerous times, and I did not call them liars

All the other supposed lies I supposedly told do not stick, because I have provided quotes and post numbers for every claim.

If anyone wants to deny this, name a lie that I told, and I will provide the post to prove my claim on it

Plus, they cannot agree to disagree, they have to call you a scripture twister, deceiver, etc for saying things like good works are a gift of grace, a view that is held by men like Calvin, Spurgeon, Wesley, Matthew Henry, etc. Not that their view makes it so, but it's not like my view falls outside of orthodoxy.

So if anyone thinks I am being a jerk, I am only answering false accusations and personal attacks
,

Macabeus · Feb 13, 2019

UnderGrace said:

I am breaking my word again, but only for you.

Thank you for your answer...and I will be reading your posts if you want to reply to the Hebrews/Galatians answer

God bless. you're a breath of fresh air.

PennEd · Feb 13, 2019

Hevosmies said:

They fell away because THEY HAD NO ROOT! JESUS is the root. HE is where we get ALL our sustenance from. These people NEVER had Jesus. Just a false confession of faith. These people were NEVER saved. If you don't have Jesus, our ROOT, you don't have Salvation.

Macabeus · Feb 13, 2019

UnderGrace said:

OK, we agree to disagree on that (faith is/is not a gift).

While I do not agree with all that you said, I think that we agree on essentials, so we're in the same family. And I will keep your answers in consideration as I continue to learn

stillness · Feb 13, 2019

Updated version of the thieves on the cross, or of the world on the cross:
The night of the Spirit

Second stanza of The Dark Night of the Soul:
2: In darkness and secure, by the secret ladder disguised:
Oh happy chance! In darkness concealed, My house being now at rest.

Going on to maturity is carried by the Holy Spirit and could be years after the night of following Christ in our understanding:
"Strive to enter in at the straight gate, for many I say to you will seek to enter in and shall not be able."
We come as we are to wait on the Lord empowered by His Spirit; powerless otherwise to put away our divided spirit and go on to perfection. The two thieves on the cross both suffered with Him and represent the whole world. With free will taken away all that is left is a believer willing to suffer with Him and find mercy, and a would be believer needing proof: to be delivered from suffering and given His life back. Taking our life back we still suffer but our work is in vain: not putting off our old life we are offended in suffering, and not having learned to Love, have no reward for our work, "But a fearful looking for judgment. "The thief on the cross who believed Jesus is the first to experience "Fellowship in the sufferings of Christ, being made conformed to his death." He was not offended in suffering with Him, In this night of the Spirit with Jesus, our free will overtaken in the will of God. The dim Light we have, sufficient influence of Grace to lose our life in following Him. "I have the Power to lay down My Life and I have the Power to take it up again." "In a race all compete but there is only One winner." As we seek first the Kingdom of God, we have a glimpse of sharing in His victory. "This is the rest were You will cause the weary to rest, nor by might not by power but by My Spirit sais the Lord." His yoke is easy as He already finished the work by Himself, but requires our agreement, "As laborers together with Him." The work is adjusted for the stronger to bear more of the load and He lets us bear what we can handle to develop in "Faith that works by Love." Left to follow Him in bearing the Cross, as Simon did for Jesus. "Fulfilling what is left behind of the sufferings of Christ for the Church." "A new commandment I give to You, that you Love one another; as I have Loved You, that you also Love one another." This Love is the Power of the Holy Spirit to turn an enemy into a friend. Loving His enemies who struggle in pride of achievement under the law to prove themselves to God, insisting others struggle as they do without seeing Unconditional Love of God. "Those who compare themselves among themselves are not wise." The Holy Spirit giving us rest, we cease from our own work as God did from His. "Now we are laborers in agreement with God, encouraging you to be reconciled to God." We are delivered from causing divisions as we walk in the Spirit, "Perfect Love delivers us from all fear. "Those who obtain rest from dualistic thinking of I'm right and your wrong in knowledge of good and evil, are no longer dominated by ego: the fruit of the sin nature is a selfish existence. "Let no one turn you away from the simplicity of Christ," who satisfies our heart so that we no longer thirst after the world. As long as we continue to Live in the sight of God and don't take things in our hands again we remain in the will of God and drink from the source of Living Water, and if we fall "We have an advocate in Jesus Chris, with the Father."

Argueless · Feb 14, 2019

Paul said that we have to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice, HOLY and ACCEPTABLE to God which is our SPIRITUAL ACT OF WORSHIP. (1 Corinthians 12:1) and then goes on to teach about the BODY OF CHRIST and spiritual gifts.

...Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. (1 john 3:16)

That is why Paul said;

...For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ NOT ONLY TO BELIEVE ON HIM, BUT ALSO TO SUFFER FOR HIM, Philippians 1:29

So we see here that just as Jesus suffered when He sacrificed Himself in obedience to GOD, His apostles and the prophets before them also suffered and were killed. Did they suffer and died for doing good because of their obedience to the faith?

...It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 1 Peter 3:17-18

...Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I FILL UP IN MY FLESH WHAT IS STILL LACKING IN REGARD TO CHRIST'S AFFLICTIONS, for the sake of his body, which is the church. Colossians 1:24

They suffered and laboured for our sake and not for their own salvation but for ours, we reap the benefits of their labour and that's what those in the body of Christ do, they work for the salvation of the unbelievers for they also were once unbelievers who benefited from the Labour of those before them. IOW "paying it forward."

...“My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE, so that the sower and the reaper may be GLAD TOGETHER. Thus the saying ‘ONE SOWS AND ANOTHER REAPS’ is true. I sent you TO REAP WHAT YOU HAVE NOT WORKED FOR. Others have done the hard work, and YOU HAVE REAPED THE BENEFITS OF THEIR LABOR.” John 4:34-38

I would therefore say and believe that;

...As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead. James 2:26

And regarding this "eternal security", I still can't find it in the bible but eternal salvation IN CHRIST JESUS is our LIVING HOPE.

...Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as WE WAIT EAGERLY FOR OUR ADOPTION AS SONS, the redemption of our bodies. FOR IN THIS HOPE WE WERE SAVED. BUT HOPE THAT IS SEEN IS NO HOPE AT ALL. WHO HOPES FOR WHAT HE ALREADY HAS? But if we hope for what WE DO NOT YET HAVE, we wait for it patiently. Romans 8:23-25

unclesilas · Feb 14, 2019

VCO said:

What I certainly know is, it is far from mature christianity to only accept half a bible and search for ways to explain away what is written in the other half

Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop. Luke8:13-15

So you do not believe in instant justification I take it by faith in Christ. The verse relates to people who received the word with joy, set out on the path, and only fell away when the time of testing came. What did they fall away from vco? According to you the answer must be nothing.
Lets take the next example. I imagine from what you wrote you don't believe they got saved either. People accept the good news, go on their way, but keep getting distracted from the path/choked by worldly things. Doesn't sound like anyone you know I guess. Jesus said they did not mature, he did not say they walked away, you mature by practicing right from wrong. I take you believe you belong to the final group. You have heard the word, understood it and produced a bountiful crop, thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown. Where did you produce such a crop vco? On the internet explaining away/doing cartwheels with the plain words of the bible?
Still, as you believe you managed(somehow) to explain away people partaking of the Holy Spirit falling away, Im sure it shouldn't be a problem for you to continue on here.

unclesilas · Feb 14, 2019

Macabeus said:

I agree. It is about different responses to the Gospel. Some are no response, some are temporary faith, some are faith with no fruit to perfection, and some are good soil faith.

How many of the four were genuine conversions, (actually three, because there was no profession in one)

Is all belief saving belief?

Amen, well put

unclesilas · Feb 14, 2019

VCO said:

I GOT NEWS FOR YOU:

Hebrews 6:4-5 (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Modern ENGLISH TRANSLATION, below:

Hebrews 6:4-5 (CSBBible)
4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, who shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who tasted God's good word and the powers of the coming age,

THAT IS NOT BORN AGAIN, because WE HAVE DONE A LOT MORE THAN JUST TASTED, we have CONSUMED THE MESSAGE, and HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT IN US. WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING a Non-Born Again Church-goer, who experimented with Christianity, just tasting it, and the came to the conclusion that IT DOES NOT WORK. BORN AGAIN is a TOTAL SURRENDER TO HIM AS MASTER our of LOVE FOR HIM, FOREVER. Any then less, is a total farce, and IS CLAIMING THE NAME IN VAIN.

Here is an example:

1 John 2:4 (CSBBible)
4 The one who says, "I have come to know him," and yet doesn't keep his commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE FALSELY CLAIMING TO KNOW CHRIST, ARE THE KIND OF LIAR THAT WILL END UP IN HELL.

Revelation 21:8 (HCSB)
8 But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars—their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

ANOTHER Example are THESE PEOPLE WHO TASTED THE GOODNESS OF GOD, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, YET THEY WERE NOT SAVED, BECAUSE THEY LACKED THAT PERSONAL, LOVING, RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.

Matthew 7:21-23 (HCSB)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

IF YOU HAVE No Inner, Personal, Loving, Relationship, With JESUS CHRIST as LORD, therefore you have NO SALVATION.

ALL THE HEAD KNOWLEDGE about Christ, WILL NOT SAVE YOU.
You Have to have that VERY DEEP RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.

BTW
You would not get one iota of, one dot of, one speck of the Holy Spirit unless you were in a saved state. The fact you appear not to understand that does not speak well of your understanding. If you have shared in, or partaken of the Holy Spirit you most certainly have been in a saved state.
BTW
DCON says you can show no fruit for three years after you got saved, eternally grateful believes it may take you years to truly love God, doesn't fit well with your post here does it

eternally-gratefull · Feb 14, 2019

Historyanswers said:

1. Your new here (supposedly) so i will forgive your ignorance of what has been going on the past few years with a particular member and what she has done and continues to do.
2. God never told us, nor does he enable sin
3. God also told us what to do when people continue in Sin

So take you “pal” comment and put it where it belongs.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 14, 2019

dcontroversal said:

She is trying to egg you on bro, don’t bite. She has proved her dihonesty, you do not need to expose her, she has exposed herself.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 14, 2019

Hey DC, question, instead of doing like some here who assume things, i will ask you flat out, do you believe God can use a new believer? In any form or fashion? Or does god have to wait for a few years? Like said member claims you believe?

I know your answer but certain prideful members can’t handle that because they feel it is their duty to prove you in error, so I will ask for them, so it can be put in writting what you believe.

mailmandan · Feb 14, 2019

PennEd said:

Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved?" I will explain why:

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel (emotional response) without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

Unlike saving belief in Christ, temporary shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe "pisteuo" on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31)

John has portrayed people who "believe" but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in.

Rosemaryx · Feb 14, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Luke 8:13...
These are people who had a non saving faith , they liked the idea of the news at first , but as soon as trouble comes to their life , they abandon Jesus , they did not percefere...
Matthew 13:20...
He has no firm root in himself ( Jesus is the root ) , his faith is only temporary , and because persecution comes because of the word , he falls away , why do they fall away , because they do not have Jesus in them ( The root )...xox...

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