The Male and Disrespect
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Your earlier post stated, "men and women are equal in personhood, importance and value, but distinct in role and authority. " You used Ephesians 5 as your supporting text, which speaks to wives and husbands specifically, not "men and women" generally, and it begins with "submit to one another". The passage simply doesn't say "women, submit to men". A women has no particular obligation to "submit" to a man simply because of gender. Within marriage, each should submit to the other depending on their particular strengths and weaknesses. Otherwise, in the church, there is no gender-based difference in role or authority.
Patriarchy, the idea that men are inherently leaders/rulers/authority figures merely because of gender, and should protect that exalted status, is unbiblical codswollop.
Patriarchy, the idea that men are inherently leaders/rulers/authority figures merely because of gender, and should protect that exalted status, is unbiblical codswollop.
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Concerning distinction in authority my proof text is 1 Timothy 2:9-14
1 Timothy 2:9-14
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Concerning distinction in role my first proof text is 1 Timothy 3:1–7
1 Timothy 3:1–7
Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
My second proof text is Titus 1:6-9
Titus 1:6-9
An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
What YOU are preaching is unbiblical codswollop. In fact, what you are preaching is the same thing that contributed to the fall in the garden of Eden. Adam, who had authority in his marriage to make decisions, failed his wife by abdicating that authority to her. Through her emotions she was deceived, and Adam failed to protect her.
If you want to remove yourself from your God given role as man, and abdicate your God given authority as man, go right ahead. But I will not be joining you. I will stand firm as a protective covering over the women in my life and empower them to also walk in their God ordained role and authority.
1 Timothy 2:9-14
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Concerning distinction in role my first proof text is 1 Timothy 3:1–7
1 Timothy 3:1–7
Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
My second proof text is Titus 1:6-9
Titus 1:6-9
An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
What YOU are preaching is unbiblical codswollop. In fact, what you are preaching is the same thing that contributed to the fall in the garden of Eden. Adam, who had authority in his marriage to make decisions, failed his wife by abdicating that authority to her. Through her emotions she was deceived, and Adam failed to protect her.
If you want to remove yourself from your God given role as man, and abdicate your God given authority as man, go right ahead. But I will not be joining you. I will stand firm as a protective covering over the women in my life and empower them to also walk in their God ordained role and authority.
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Your wife is obviously not interested in family worship, and that's her business. Let her do as she please, you can't force her. But as for the kids, that's another matter.
Talk with her privately. Remind her that you are the father of those kids, and you don't appreciate her undermining your efforts. Tell her to go chat on her phone or whatever else she wants to do, but the kids are going to participate in the worship session. She needs to go someplace else during worship and not sit there and distract the kids.
you don't need the pastor at your church to say all this to your wife. You tell her yourself.
Talk with her privately. Remind her that you are the father of those kids, and you don't appreciate her undermining your efforts. Tell her to go chat on her phone or whatever else she wants to do, but the kids are going to participate in the worship session. She needs to go someplace else during worship and not sit there and distract the kids.
you don't need the pastor at your church to say all this to your wife. You tell her yourself.
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Do some research on context; you're badly misinterpreting this passage.
I suggest you check the Greek and the context on this passage. "He" doesn't appear here.
See my earlier comment. You don't understand the concept of "proof". What you have is "evidence".
Hogwash. Genesis says nothing of the sort. This is eisegesis of the worst sort.
I'm laughing out loud. Your personal attack only reflects poorly on you. I know my "God-given role" as a man, and I fulfill it appropriately.
You have no God-given authority to be a "protective covering" over anyone but your own wife and children.
I would give you a more extensive response, but I would be quoting one that Angela53510 gave to a similar argument. Perhaps she'll address your position.
I suggest you check the Greek and the context on this passage. "He" doesn't appear here.
See my earlier comment. You don't understand the concept of "proof". What you have is "evidence".
Hogwash. Genesis says nothing of the sort. This is eisegesis of the worst sort.
I'm laughing out loud. Your personal attack only reflects poorly on you. I know my "God-given role" as a man, and I fulfill it appropriately.
You have no God-given authority to be a "protective covering" over anyone but your own wife and children.
I would give you a more extensive response, but I would be quoting one that Angela53510 gave to a similar argument. Perhaps she'll address your position.
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As a single woman, I'm quite scared of the prospect of getting married and submitting to my husband. That's a very scary thought. I'm shaking in my sandals.
I heard a rumour that the wife does not have control over her body, neither the man have control over his. The husband and wife have control over each others body. That's a rumour, right? Either way, I'm scared. I certainty don't want control over my husband's body.
The marriage bed is undefiled? Spooky. I feel that these are rumours meant to scare people off from marrying.
I heard a rumour that the wife does not have control over her body, neither the man have control over his. The husband and wife have control over each others body. That's a rumour, right? Either way, I'm scared. I certainty don't want control over my husband's body.
The marriage bed is undefiled? Spooky. I feel that these are rumours meant to scare people off from marrying.
You need not fear as long as your husband is a godly man. The "rumours" to which you refer are actually misunderstandings of Scripture...
The "control" issue comes from 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 (NIV): "The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."
This is fairly self-explanatory: if you're married, don't deny your spouse sexual relations.
"The marriage bed is undefiled" is from Hebrews 13:4 (KJV) which says, "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." It means that sexual relations between husband and wife are honourable and right in God's sight.
It's not at all to scare people off from marrying, but to give them right understanding of God's design for sexuality in a culture that had completely corrupted it... much like ours has today.
The "control" issue comes from 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 (NIV): "The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."
This is fairly self-explanatory: if you're married, don't deny your spouse sexual relations.
"The marriage bed is undefiled" is from Hebrews 13:4 (KJV) which says, "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." It means that sexual relations between husband and wife are honourable and right in God's sight.
It's not at all to scare people off from marrying, but to give them right understanding of God's design for sexuality in a culture that had completely corrupted it... much like ours has today.
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Except Paul appeals to a universal principle in referencing the Fall. It's really easy to say that it's a bunch of elsegesis, except for the fact that Paul himself mentions it.
1 Timothy 3:2 in the Greek contains the phrase εἶναι μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα which being translated is "the husband of one wife". Do you agree that it says this in the Greek?
1 Timothy 3:2 in the Greek contains the phrase εἶναι μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα which being translated is "the husband of one wife". Do you agree that it says this in the Greek?
Greek can be a slippery language. You might want to study it before you go making all these rules and laws based on what could be a bad translation.
I have several years of Master's degree Greek. I got outstanding student in all my classes. I read the Bible in Greek daily. No, I am not a master scholar. But, I have studied under them, and I continue to learn and grow.
εἶναι μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα
To be one a woman man. (Note that the word εἶναι is an infinitive, you should use "to" with it, to show it is indefinite.)
γυναικὸς can mean wife, but also woman.
ἄνδρα can mean husband, and also man.
Since this is addressed to men, it is important to look at context. Because the point of this passage is for men not to be polygamous, which was very common among the patriarchs and other societies. This came about likely because of constant wars and the men dying, and not enough men for the women. Since women could not work, they basically needed a man to marry them, or they would end up prostitutes. Very sad indictment on that society, and keeping women from following careers and having jobs. And certainly not applicable to today!
So the context is about men not having more than one wife. No "he," and probably not wife/husband, according to most scholars. (Although it could be "to be a one wife husband"?)
So, try to not use Greek to prove your point, since you don't appear to know Greek at all, and missing the small nuances which you don't get using Strong's or other concordances. And then, you might want to consider how many other mistakes you have made trying to make Scripture say what you want, instead of the context and intention of the original, inspired writers.
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The reason why any marriage, including their children, and finances, ect., is in chaos, is because the Believer Faith is misplaced. Their Faith is not placed and maintained exclusively in Christ and the Cross - It may be placed in Christ - but not the Cross (a lukewarm Christian). The result will be the works of the flesh and spiritual death (the sin nature comes alive) Gal. 5:19-21. This is called Spiritual Adultery - another Jesus. You have forsaking the Cross for other ways and methods to bring victory and blessings (grace).
Never allow any problem nor any circumstance to misplace your Faith from Christ and the Cross of Calvary where the victory was purchased and won. Unless the Believer submit to God's plan of victory, over sin, the world, the flesh, and the Devil, the result will always be defeat. The Life of Christ must be manifested through the power of the Holy Spirit in the Believer life to have victory (John 14:21; John 15:5; Romans 8:2).
Never allow any problem nor any circumstance to misplace your Faith from Christ and the Cross of Calvary where the victory was purchased and won. Unless the Believer submit to God's plan of victory, over sin, the world, the flesh, and the Devil, the result will always be defeat. The Life of Christ must be manifested through the power of the Holy Spirit in the Believer life to have victory (John 14:21; John 15:5; Romans 8:2).