Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
U
Thank you for the article.
Yes, I believe that Luther stated the book of James was "made of straw" he could not reconcile James and Paul, and therefore had strong disdain for the letters of James.
Luther just missed the Hebrew mindset and expressive verbal elements of James, also that the audience of James' letters were so different than Paul's.
Unfortunately, I think if Luther had come to understand James and had written on it clearly at the time, perhaps the Catholic church would have had to deal with its very faulty doctrine of justification by faith and works.
So this evil faulty doctrine continues to this day as evidenced here on this thread daily.
Yes, I believe that Luther stated the book of James was "made of straw" he could not reconcile James and Paul, and therefore had strong disdain for the letters of James.
Luther just missed the Hebrew mindset and expressive verbal elements of James, also that the audience of James' letters were so different than Paul's.
Unfortunately, I think if Luther had come to understand James and had written on it clearly at the time, perhaps the Catholic church would have had to deal with its very faulty doctrine of justification by faith and works.
So this evil faulty doctrine continues to this day as evidenced here on this thread daily.
-
3
- Show all
U
Yes I think "metanoia" or that "change of mind" is in the final analysis from an unbelief in Jesus and His completed work to a belief in Jesus and His completed work.
However, part and parcel of that "metanoia" is two parts...... turning away from self effort and dead works towards Jesus completely for personal salvation
I just think the whole concept and deep meaning of the word "metanoia" is just so amazing!!
However, part and parcel of that "metanoia" is two parts...... turning away from self effort and dead works towards Jesus completely for personal salvation
I just think the whole concept and deep meaning of the word "metanoia" is just so amazing!!
-
3
- Show all
U
Do you question the very words of Christ Jesus as He was dying on the cross
Are you telling us in post after post that your "works" are above and more necessary than the Death and resurrection of Christ Jesus....that your "works" are the second and the more important part of a Two Act Play?
What shall we call this play......"Jesus Fails, My Obedience Wins"
Seriously, do you ever stop and consider how your "works" and your attempt to emulate the historical and Divine Jesus in the energy of the flesh is not authentic Christian living?
Infusing your personal obedience into the salvation plan is at its very core repugnant in light of the suffering of Jesus and when He very clearly stated He did it all, Finished, Paid in Full, only His perfect obedience could ever meet God's standard.
Are you telling us in post after post that your "works" are above and more necessary than the Death and resurrection of Christ Jesus....that your "works" are the second and the more important part of a Two Act Play?
What shall we call this play......"Jesus Fails, My Obedience Wins"
Seriously, do you ever stop and consider how your "works" and your attempt to emulate the historical and Divine Jesus in the energy of the flesh is not authentic Christian living?
Infusing your personal obedience into the salvation plan is at its very core repugnant in light of the suffering of Jesus and when He very clearly stated He did it all, Finished, Paid in Full, only His perfect obedience could ever meet God's standard.
-
4
- Show all
Brother. The phrase is:
Inheriting the kingdom of God.
Read what Paul and Jesus taught.
- those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21
I think the key to understanding James perspective in his book of James is found in Acts 21
17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 [d]What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided [e]that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from [f]sexual immorality.”
Thus, the book of James was written to the 12 tribes of Israel. From the above perspective, its quite clear that James's standard for the Jews is different from the Gentiles. He is perfectly fine with Gentiles being saved without works, but for the Jews, he has a different standard, they must still follow the Law of Moses.
Once you understand this perspective, it can be quite amusing how we, as Gentiles, seek to understand church doctrine, thru the book of James. Paul is the apostle we should understand church doctrine from. We can learn from James of course, but it is not written to us.
17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 [d]What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided [e]that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from [f]sexual immorality.”
Thus, the book of James was written to the 12 tribes of Israel. From the above perspective, its quite clear that James's standard for the Jews is different from the Gentiles. He is perfectly fine with Gentiles being saved without works, but for the Jews, he has a different standard, they must still follow the Law of Moses.
Once you understand this perspective, it can be quite amusing how we, as Gentiles, seek to understand church doctrine, thru the book of James. Paul is the apostle we should understand church doctrine from. We can learn from James of course, but it is not written to us.
-
1
- Show all
Just because you don’t like the words of Christ, doesn’t mean they are going to change.
- those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:29-21
Why would you teach people they can practice murder, sorcery, idolatry, sexual immorality and still inherit the kingdom of God?
those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Read it!
JLB
U
Jesus is the only Way......... He is the Way the Truth and the Light.
They followed the Law until the temple was destroyed and then the Law ceased and neither Jew nor Gentile is under the law we are under grace, now our life is Hid in Him and He in Us.
The law is passed away, all things are made new in Him.
They followed the Law until the temple was destroyed and then the Law ceased and neither Jew nor Gentile is under the law we are under grace, now our life is Hid in Him and He in Us.
The law is passed away, all things are made new in Him.
-
1
- Show all
I tend to agree.
And I was reading from a Catholic priest by the name of Peter H. Davids website. He's written extensively on the book of James. And he said that James was speaking of good works not the works of the law. Then Paul was writing about the works of the law.
Sounds right to me.
And I was reading from a Catholic priest by the name of Peter H. Davids website. He's written extensively on the book of James. And he said that James was speaking of good works not the works of the law. Then Paul was writing about the works of the law.
Sounds right to me.
-
1
- Show all
Yes, I understand you can rattle all these so fluently, probably even in your sleep, like a fish in water.
Ever since you became a Christian, you grew up with Paul's revelation of the mystery gospel of grace, but you must put yourself in the shoes of James and not "anticipate revelation".
James did not have the revelation of the mystery, that Jews and Gentiles would be equal in the church, like Paul did. The book of James was written before the first Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. The Jews were still thinking about Gentiles as unclean and dogs then. When you read James and saw that he was writing to the 12 tribes of Israel, always bear this in mind.
Likewise Paul also had no idea the dispensation of grace would last as long as it did.
That was why he wrote "We shall not all fall asleep" in 1 Cor 15:51", he really believe the rapture would happen during his lifetime, but now we know better.
Ever since you became a Christian, you grew up with Paul's revelation of the mystery gospel of grace, but you must put yourself in the shoes of James and not "anticipate revelation".
James did not have the revelation of the mystery, that Jews and Gentiles would be equal in the church, like Paul did. The book of James was written before the first Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. The Jews were still thinking about Gentiles as unclean and dogs then. When you read James and saw that he was writing to the 12 tribes of Israel, always bear this in mind.
Likewise Paul also had no idea the dispensation of grace would last as long as it did.
That was why he wrote "We shall not all fall asleep" in 1 Cor 15:51", he really believe the rapture would happen during his lifetime, but now we know better.
I tend to agree.
And I was reading from a Catholic priest by the name of Peter H. Davids website. He's written extensively on the book of James. And he said that James was speaking of good works not the works of the law. Then Paul was writing about the works of the law.
Sounds right to me.
And I was reading from a Catholic priest by the name of Peter H. Davids website. He's written extensively on the book of James. And he said that James was speaking of good works not the works of the law. Then Paul was writing about the works of the law.
Sounds right to me.
As a Gentile, the choice is clear, church doctrine should first be taken from the Apostle Paul, who is writing to the Gentiles. If the letters of Peter, James and John seems to contradict, follow what Paul said.
This was also what Peter and James would approve of, as said in Galatians 2
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
and 2 Peter 3
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
-
1
- Show all
I agree that we got to Love that we may learn:
Was impressed to look at the thief more closely since I believe that he represents us. You know "One shall be taken, one shall be left." He followed Jesus in His suffering without being offended and the first to do so, such humble beginning and with free will taken away, the man is to be envied. While the other though that if Jesus is God He should get saved without having to suffer. For some in china and Russia imprisoned for their faith is hard work in a labour camp "Some were tortured not accepting deliverance that they may obtain a better Resurrection." One out of 2 Christians who are tortured for their faith give in to the government to be released. Some offered their job back in a government approved church and not permitted to evangelise. I can hear you already, this has noting to do with salvation and your right, Jesus is the author of salvation we are just Acts of, "Faith that Works by Love," and we are not even for real until we suffer with Him. "He that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin." "If we suffer with Him we shall rule with Him" The other thief had to suffer just the same. We wont call suffering work otherwise he would get saved to lol and that would be mest up. Suffering is necessary then, I have the impression the believer did not sin while he was on the cross. And we know the other one did as "Whatsoever in not of Faith is sin." A while back the Lord told me: Stay on the cross. Its where we are identified with Jesus in His death and where we should be, to cease from sin. A women who asked to see Jesus in a dream, was told by Jesus in the dream: Stay on the Rock. I understand that women and children don't have to suffer, they just need to stay on the Love, with God. Her dream is on you tube: Dream of Jesus (Amazing). I would like a response.
Was impressed to look at the thief more closely since I believe that he represents us. You know "One shall be taken, one shall be left." He followed Jesus in His suffering without being offended and the first to do so, such humble beginning and with free will taken away, the man is to be envied. While the other though that if Jesus is God He should get saved without having to suffer. For some in china and Russia imprisoned for their faith is hard work in a labour camp "Some were tortured not accepting deliverance that they may obtain a better Resurrection." One out of 2 Christians who are tortured for their faith give in to the government to be released. Some offered their job back in a government approved church and not permitted to evangelise. I can hear you already, this has noting to do with salvation and your right, Jesus is the author of salvation we are just Acts of, "Faith that Works by Love," and we are not even for real until we suffer with Him. "He that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin." "If we suffer with Him we shall rule with Him" The other thief had to suffer just the same. We wont call suffering work otherwise he would get saved to lol and that would be mest up. Suffering is necessary then, I have the impression the believer did not sin while he was on the cross. And we know the other one did as "Whatsoever in not of Faith is sin." A while back the Lord told me: Stay on the cross. Its where we are identified with Jesus in His death and where we should be, to cease from sin. A women who asked to see Jesus in a dream, was told by Jesus in the dream: Stay on the Rock. I understand that women and children don't have to suffer, they just need to stay on the Love, with God. Her dream is on you tube: Dream of Jesus (Amazing). I would like a response.
But people try to sneak in works thru the backdoor by saying, "But if you don't show works after you are saved, then that faith is dead, and you are not REALLY saved.
This is about Those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom" or have no inheritance in the Kingdom.
These do not obtain a crown of life, as it's written, "Some will be saved but as through fire but lose their reward," these would remain among the nations of the saved, and since only those with a crown of live have part in the first Resurrection and restoration of all things, "The rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand years are fulfilled." "The sea will give up the dead that are in them, and death and hell will give up the dead that are in them and everyone will be judged according to their works." The trouble is seeing the meaning of saved as escape from hell, released from hell to be judged and to think the same meaning of salvation applies to a saint. There are babes in Christ: these are sinners, then Little children who are forgiven, then fathers: friends of the Father, and "Young men because you are strong and know the word of God dwells in you and have overcome the evil one." these are saints You need to be full of the Holy Spirit to overcome the enemy.
These do not obtain a crown of life, as it's written, "Some will be saved but as through fire but lose their reward," these would remain among the nations of the saved, and since only those with a crown of live have part in the first Resurrection and restoration of all things, "The rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand years are fulfilled." "The sea will give up the dead that are in them, and death and hell will give up the dead that are in them and everyone will be judged according to their works." The trouble is seeing the meaning of saved as escape from hell, released from hell to be judged and to think the same meaning of salvation applies to a saint. There are babes in Christ: these are sinners, then Little children who are forgiven, then fathers: friends of the Father, and "Young men because you are strong and know the word of God dwells in you and have overcome the evil one." these are saints You need to be full of the Holy Spirit to overcome the enemy.
Well what do you know.
It's true that those who are born of God do not practice sin and the idea of "practice" is to perform habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. This describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life with no goal or effort to stop. No regret, no repentance, just bring it on!
Yes and in regards to Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).
It's true that those who are born of God do not practice sin and the idea of "practice" is to perform habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. This describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life with no goal or effort to stop. No regret, no repentance, just bring it on!
Yes and in regards to Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).
-
2
-
1
- Show all
Some here may believe we're quarreling or arguing...
I think we're just discussing our difference of opinion.
I find it interesting how we could read the exact same words and come up with such a different idea.
Even those who read the bible in the original Koine Greek have the same outcome....They disagree.
Some believe we walk down an isle and are saved forever.
Some believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to leave God once we've known His love.
Some believe God will not even ALLOW us to leave Him because it's HIM that keeps us saved.
I also find it interesting how some take one of the concepts of Calvinism, the "P", Perseverance of the Saints and cling to it...but do NOT accept anything else of Calvinism.
The O.P. sometimes says that those who are with the plentious will go to the undesired place...
This is incorrect ....
Why?
Because we are not saved by our doctrine,
We are saved by Jesus and our desire to be saved.
If our doctrine saved us,,,it means half of those on this thread would go to hell just because they believed the wrong doctrine. God is a just God and will not condemn us for a mistake....
I think we're just discussing our difference of opinion.
I find it interesting how we could read the exact same words and come up with such a different idea.
Even those who read the bible in the original Koine Greek have the same outcome....They disagree.
Some believe we walk down an isle and are saved forever.
Some believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to leave God once we've known His love.
Some believe God will not even ALLOW us to leave Him because it's HIM that keeps us saved.
I also find it interesting how some take one of the concepts of Calvinism, the "P", Perseverance of the Saints and cling to it...but do NOT accept anything else of Calvinism.
The O.P. sometimes says that those who are with the plentious will go to the undesired place...
This is incorrect ....
Why?
Because we are not saved by our doctrine,
We are saved by Jesus and our desire to be saved.
If our doctrine saved us,,,it means half of those on this thread would go to hell just because they believed the wrong doctrine. God is a just God and will not condemn us for a mistake....
-
1
- Show all
False......he condemns all that rely or put trust into a false gospel......and make no mistake...those in the many group...will be cast from his presence into the lake of fire because they have not placed trust into Christ, but rather a false gospel of faith plus works to gain entrance into the KINGDOM....
DEPART fro ME for I NEVER KNEW YOU.............end of story....start accepting the facts Fran..........it is as plain as the words written..
DEPART fro ME for I NEVER KNEW YOU.............end of story....start accepting the facts Fran..........it is as plain as the words written..
-
1
- Show all
I tend to agree.
And I was reading from a Catholic priest by the name of Peter H. Davids website. He's written extensively on the book of James. And he said that James was speaking of good works not the works of the law. Then Paul was writing about the works of the law.
Sounds right to me.
And I was reading from a Catholic priest by the name of Peter H. Davids website. He's written extensively on the book of James. And he said that James was speaking of good works not the works of the law. Then Paul was writing about the works of the law.
Sounds right to me.
-
1
- Show all