God LIED!

[Budman]

If a believer goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, that person has wandered away from the truth. He is no longer taking up his cross daily and is no longer producing the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, if a person remains in the that state and dies in that state, they will die in their sins.

Then salvation is not a gift at all, but a wage to be earned, and eternal life isn't actually eternal, but probationary life.

Sorry, but Jesus isn't sharing the credit for our salvation with anyone.

And believers cannot "die in their sins" because we don't have any sins credited to us. Jesus paid for all of them - past, present, and future.

 

[Sketch]

I like the way you reason.

We are saved by grace, which is Gods mercy on us who through our faith (believing in Christs Way of love, truth, justice, humility) are ultimately saved, overcoming the world and its passions.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

There it is. Redefining "faith" to mean works. (while quoting Eph.2:8)

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

 

[louis]

Yes Sketch, God's grace, His mercy towards us is the gift of God toward us who believe in Christ.
To believe in Christ is to believe in Christs Way of love, truth, justice, humility, and more.
If you believe in Christ and His Way, you will then love Christ, and naturally do His commands.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, I hope God opened John the apostle's eyes before it was too late, for it was he who said "if we say that we know Him and do not keep His commandments, we lie and the truth is not in us.

Why would he have to open johns eyes for? He was correct, people of true faith work, Obedience to Gods commands (another way of saying living righteous lives, not of the world) is a by product of having saving faith and being born of God.

John never said they were required to be saved or maintain salvation, he spoke of the characteristics of gods people, ot the requirements.

OF COURSE. But if you ARE BEING SANCTIFIED IN HIM, it will MANIFEST in your life. If it is not, then you need to take inventory. What did Paul mean when he said EXAMINE YOURSELVES? How do we examine ourselves if there is nothing to examine except a one time momentary decision, as Budman once described it?

The jews examined themselves and declaired they were following gods commands so they were ok, many religious people do the same,

Again, true faith works, if we still live like the world, then yes, we should question our fath, as james said, but it takes more than that, many will come proclaiming their works they did in gods name and jesus will say depart i never knew you.

I think some of us are being accused of arguing for a "works salvation" when in fact what we are arguing against is mere decisional regeneration and easy believism. I do not believe we are saved by a momentary decision we make or an intellectual assent to the gospel. We are saved by a mighty work of God called the New Birth, which makes us new creatures in Christ. Decisions and intellectual assent may only make us nominal christians.

And what did John mean when he said "by this we know?" several times? Know what?

1 John 2:3-And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 3:14- We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not hisbrother abideth in death.

1 John 3:19- And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

I am not arguing against saved by grace through faith, I am not arguing against justified through faith alone, and I am not arguing for or against OSAS. I am arguing against MERE DECISIONAL SALVATION and EASY BELIEVISM.

Paul and James did not contradict each other on the relationship of faith and works. Paul was refuting LEGALISTS. James was refuting the opposite extreme. And John was refuting the same basic error (but of a different strain) that James was in his epistles.

Again, i preach obedience, and true discipleship, and if people ate living like the world i will confront them as the bible says to. Bu that is not at issue here

What is at issue is those proclaiming salvation is through, or maintaine by works. That is legalism. And no different that what paul fought hard against with the jews. It all has the sam background, my works are what in the end make me right with god, be it works of the law, works of the churcu, or just moral works. It is all from satan

 

[Jimbone]

This was the sentence from your original post that put me off in the wrong direction.
"I agree and it's (salvation) not a matter of grabbing a list of commandments and forcing yourself in fear to uphold them."

I had just challenged someone about the scripture they had quoted being a reference to the Ten Commandments, which it is not. You seemed to be in agreement with that. (seemed) And I handled it poorly as well. I can apologize for that part. I was quoting scriptures and not answering questions. (which you found infuriating, because it was) I think I was trying to avoid a lengthy argument about the law. Anyway... not to justify myself... bad is bad. Period.

Awesome man, and thank you. I was just foolish in how I handled it yesterday, I could have made every point in a way that would have been so much more not only uniting, but also effective(<- the bigger point), but no I get a little offended myself and resort to the whole tired "tough guy" crap. It's honestly a little embarrassing today, but I do appreciate this comment. I know I need to slow it down and think a little more before I "leap". One last thanks, and I hope you have a great day.

 

[dcontroversal]

Fair enough, and yesterday I was coming wording everything very harshly, and I just wanted you to know that I hope I wasn't overly aggressive with you, because I already love you brother, and I understand what your talking about here. It's just I truly think that both sides of this have a false picture of what the other believes, but honestly I don't think many believe that strait up "works save", just like I don't believe anyone is rely saying "I got my Jesus "get out of hell free" ticket punched, lets go sin till the end", you know what I mean. We start talking past each other and to a small degree I feel I did that to you yesterday too. I just wanted to tell you, I'm sorry about that man. From what you can learn about someone in a chat site, you're a solid guy, a brother, and I'm honestly glad I had/have a chance to get to know you a little bit. Have a good day man.

Brother, you and I have had any chats and you did not offend me.....I just know what I have read and I still say that if one teaches a salvation that can be lost or maintained that by default they teach a works based salvation......You and I agree on many things and I have always considered you a brother and would go to the wire for you if it ever came to that.......Keep swinging migo....always appreciate your insight and demeanor...........

 

[star]

Yes Sketch, God's grace, His mercy towards us is the gift of God toward us who believe in Christ.
To believe in Christ is to believe in Christs Way of love, truth, justice, humility, and more.
If you believe in Christ and His Way, you will then love Christ, and naturally do His commands.

We first have believing faith to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior. Then the HS comes to reside in us. I must disagree that one automatically becomes Naturally doing God's commandments.

Becoming the born again person Christ desires us to be is not automatic like our salvation. It's called growing in the HS and that is a lifetime thing.

 

[louis]

We first have believing faith to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior. Then the HS comes to reside in us. I must disagree that one automatically becomes Naturally doing God's commandments.

Becoming the born again person Christ desires us to be is not automatic like our salvation. It's called growing in the HS and that is a lifetime thing.

Hello star,
I agree with you that one does not automatically become naturally doing God's commadments, upon accepting Christ as our Savior.
I today do not come naturally doing all of God's commandments.
The reason for this I recognize being my little faith in Christs Way.
If I fully believed in Christ and His Way of love, truth, justice, and humility, I would then love Christ and His Way, and thus willfully of my own new reborn nature do all of Gods commandments. This is what I recognize being true faith in Christ.
I have a ways to go, as probably all of us do, before attaining a greater level of faith in Christ and His Way.

Luke 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

 

[Macabeus]

Why would he have to open johns eyes for? He was correct, people of true faith work, Obedience to Gods commands (another way of saying living righteous lives, not of the world) is a by product of having saving faith and being born of God.

John never said they were required to be saved or maintain salvation, he spoke of the characteristics of gods people, ot the requirements.

The same thing I and others always say and get accused of "works salvation"

What is at issue is those proclaiming salvation is through, or maintaine by works. That is legalism. And no different that what paul fought hard against with the jews. It all has the sam background, my works are what in the end make me right with god, be it works of the law, works of the churcu, or just moral works. It is all from satan

I agree that we are not saved or kept by works. I believe we are kept by the power of God through faith. But some even argue against that.

 

[Macabeus]

I like the way you reason.

We are saved by grace, which is Gods mercy on us who through our faith (believing in Christs Way of love, truth, justice, humility) are ultimately saved, overcoming the world and its passions.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Yes, we are saved by Grace. Grace that not only forgives, it also sets free, if we do not resist it.

 

[Macabeus]

The ones that state the transformation is based upon the study and application of the word.....the ones which state a believer can fail to go on to perfection (maturity) .....the ones which state believers are to move beyond the milk of the word that they may grow and mature.....the ones which state our lives can be weighed down with surfeiting...the ones which state some have works of wood, hay and stubble burnt to a crisp with nothing to show, yet saved so as by fire.....and on and on and on

None of those equal salvation without transformation. Even the believers that fail to grow to maturity experience transformation. If not, the entire book of First John is thrown out the window

If we say we know him and do not keep his commandments, we lie.

If we say we know Him and do not abide in love, we lie.

Some Christians stay immature, but that does not mean they don't love God or their brother or neighbor, and it doesnt mean they don't keep God's commands, and it doesnt mean they don't bear fruit. All Christians love, keep God's commands, and bear fruit, albeit imperfectly THAT IS MY POINT.

BALANCE. Christians can be carnal, immature, babies, selfish, etc. But they are different than the world and they are different than they were before grace found them.

 

[Macabeus]

Edit- Christians can be carnal, immature, babies, selfish, etc. But they are CALLED TO BE different than the world and they are different than they were before grace found them. A person who bears no fruit, keeps not the commandments, and loves not, there is no reason for them to think they have experienced grace. If they have experienced grace, they will bear fruit, love, and keep God's commandments, albeit not perfectly. Not perfectly, but there will be fruit, love, and obedience nontheless. Otherwise, we are ripping out half of the New Testament.

 

[dcontroversal]

None of those equal salvation without transformation. Even the believers that fail to grow to maturity experience transformation. If not, the entire book of First John is thrown out the window

If we say we know him and do not keep his commandments, we lie.

If we say we know Him and do not abide in love, we lie.

Some Christians stay immature, but that does not mean they don't love God or their brother or neighbor, and it doesnt mean they don't keep God's commands, and it doesnt mean they don't bear fruit. All Christians love, keep God's commands, and bear fruit, albeit imperfectly THAT IS MY POINT.

BALANCE. Christians can be carnal, immature, babies, selfish, etc. But they are different than the world and they are different than they were before grace found them.

Sorry...you don't know what you are talking about......every cited example is proof of salvation with stunted growth/transformation and or a lack of transformation.......and no one disagrees with your last line........

 

[Macabeus]

Sorry...you don't know what you are talking about......every cited example is proof of salvation with stunted growth/transformation and or a lack of transformation.......and no one disagrees with your last line........

If a person bears no fruit, keeps not the commandments, and loves not, there is no reason for them to think they have experienced grace. If they have experienced grace, they will bear fruit, love, and keep God's commandments, albeit not perfectly. Not perfectly, but there will be fruit, love, and obedience nontheless. If you don't agree with this, your doctrine is out of sorts with much of the New Testament, especially the words of Jesus and the writings of John, particularly his first epistle.

 

[dcontroversal]

Edit- Christians can be carnal, immature, babies, selfish, etc. But they are CALLED TO BE different than the world and they are different than they were before grace found them. A person who bears no fruit, keeps not the commandments, and loves not, there is no reason for them to think they have experienced grace. If they have experienced grace, they will bear fruit, love, and keep God's commandments, albeit not perfectly. Not perfectly, but there will be fruit, love, and obedience nontheless. Otherwise, we are ripping out half of the New Testament.

Saved so as by fire.......works burnt to a crisp

Cut loose for the destruction of the flesh

Burn inheritance through riotous living <--Prodigal

All three exceptions to your hard, fast rules....

What fruit, commandment or obedience did the thief on the cross exemplify?

Did he do any good?
Did he keep any commandment?
What obedience was found in his last moments as he suffocated with broken legs while being put to death as a criminal?

 

[dcontroversal]

If a person bears no fruit, keeps not the commandments, and loves not, there is no reason for them to think they have experienced grace. If they have experienced grace, they will bear fruit, love, and keep God's commandments, albeit not perfectly. Not perfectly, but there will be fruit, love, and obedience nontheless. If you don't agree with this, your doctrine is out of sorts with much of the New Testament, especially the words of Jesus and the writings of John, particularly his first epistle.

Yeah, I seen you EDIT and your simply not correct......to bear fruit, learn to be obedient, or love correctly takes years of growth and maturity....

When does an apple tree become an apple tree......?

a. From the MOMENT it sprouts
b. While it is growing for years before it bears one apple
c. After years of growth and it begins to bear

 

[Macabeus]

Saved so as by fire.......works burnt to a crisp

Cut loose for the destruction of the flesh

Burn inheritance through riotous living <--Prodigal

All three exceptions to your hard, fast rules....

What fruit, commandment or obedience did the thief on the cross exemplify?

Did he do any good?
Did he keep any commandment?
What obedience was found in his last moments as he suffocated with broken legs while being put to death as a criminal?

Yes, the thief on the cross did keep a commandment. He believed on the Son of God.

He that says he knows God and does not keep God's commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with scripture. Can't help you in that case.

 

[Macabeus]

Yeah, I seen you EDIT and your simply not correct......to bear fruit, learn to be obedient, or love correctly takes years of growth and maturity....

When does an apple tree become an apple tree......?

a. From the MOMENT it sprouts
b. While it is growing for years before it bears one apple
c. After years of growth and it begins to bear

Yes, but the point is it grows and bears fruit. This does not jibe with the idea that has been promoted that as long as you believe for even just a moment, you're saved no matter what. That is not the kind of faith that the Holy Spirit produces. Does God not finish the work He started

Yes, it will take a while to grow, but grow we will

 

[dcontroversal]

Then salvation is not a gift at all, but a wage to be earned, and eternal life isn't actually eternal, but probationary life.

Sorry, but Jesus isn't sharing the credit for our salvation with anyone.

And believers cannot "die in their sins" because we don't have any sins credited to us. Jesus paid for all of them - past, present, and future.

AMEN.....another one that helps JESUS finish what he already promised to finish and complete..........I remember something about a number identified as MANY that call JESUS LORD and fully expect to enter based upon all the good they have done in his name.........

ALL JESUS or fraudulent.....

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, but the point is it grows and bears fruit. This does not jibe with the idea that has been promoted that as long as you believe for even just a moment, you're saved no matter what. That is not the kind of faith that the Holy Spirit produces. Does God not finish the work He started

Yes, it will take a while to grow, but grow we will

What if it grows for three years and then gets burnt in a forest fire before it bears one apple? DID it ever stop being an apple tree?