Not By Works
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Yes , we are saved already by Gods Amazing grace , then we follow our Shepard because we now hear His voice...xox...
God said " We are saved , not by works , works follow but do not save us , I can confidently post this now because I know it is the truth
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God said " We are saved , not by works , works follow but do not save us , I can confidently post this now because I know it is the truth
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This is where in think the crux of the matter is.
You say believers must do good works to maintain salvation.
So surely then works save us or keep us saved?
So what is the difference between non believers who do much better or more works than a genuine faith filled believer?
Which one is saved and why?
So you say a believer can lose salvation because they stop doing good works.
But how does one measure that, qualify and quantify that?
How does the above tie in with your objection to OSAS?
Then on the reverse we have that no works means that a person never had genuine belief in the first place. Therefore never saved to begin with.
The difficulty here is determining whether this is a barren period or whether the person has no interest in genuinely following Jesus and wanting to be like him.
A person can have a barren period but still have faith, never lost faith in Jesus.
Yet a person without genuine faith can show great works but is dead on the inside, but externally appears to be in the vine.
Yes Jesus called us to obedience, to do good works, seek to kill the flesh
No one here can say anything different.
If they do then they equate to the people Paul addressed, that being I don't care I have a feel meal ticket.
Would you agree that there is a reason for good works?
I would say you do.
That is to maintain salvation.
But Jesus said "If you love me you will do"
We do it because we love Jesus, we do it to those we love, we do it to those who hate us and persecute us. The standard is not to those who love us but to those who hate us.
I'm not saying that the works you do are not out of love for Jesus.
I've known you for years now along with AW.
You gave me reassurance that during my dark days when I had a gambling problem, left church wasn't doing good works but never lost my faith in Jesus.
I asked you "during that period was I saved? (I doubted I was) but you reassure me I was because I never lost my faith in Jesus, just in myself and those in their misguided wisdom who tried to help me. You even said that if I died during that period I was still saved.
So what kept me saved?
You did me good, I can't deny that.
But the thing I will deny and reject is that works will keep our initial salvation through genuine faith.
But hey you know that.
Even though we disagree I still love you as a sister.
Your crap works will be burned up and so will mine.
But what will never be burned up is our genuine faith in Jesus.
It's that faith that keeps us saved.
You say believers must do good works to maintain salvation.
So surely then works save us or keep us saved?
So what is the difference between non believers who do much better or more works than a genuine faith filled believer?
Which one is saved and why?
So you say a believer can lose salvation because they stop doing good works.
But how does one measure that, qualify and quantify that?
How does the above tie in with your objection to OSAS?
Then on the reverse we have that no works means that a person never had genuine belief in the first place. Therefore never saved to begin with.
The difficulty here is determining whether this is a barren period or whether the person has no interest in genuinely following Jesus and wanting to be like him.
A person can have a barren period but still have faith, never lost faith in Jesus.
Yet a person without genuine faith can show great works but is dead on the inside, but externally appears to be in the vine.
Yes Jesus called us to obedience, to do good works, seek to kill the flesh
No one here can say anything different.
If they do then they equate to the people Paul addressed, that being I don't care I have a feel meal ticket.
Would you agree that there is a reason for good works?
I would say you do.
That is to maintain salvation.
But Jesus said "If you love me you will do"
We do it because we love Jesus, we do it to those we love, we do it to those who hate us and persecute us. The standard is not to those who love us but to those who hate us.
I'm not saying that the works you do are not out of love for Jesus.
I've known you for years now along with AW.
You gave me reassurance that during my dark days when I had a gambling problem, left church wasn't doing good works but never lost my faith in Jesus.
I asked you "during that period was I saved? (I doubted I was) but you reassure me I was because I never lost my faith in Jesus, just in myself and those in their misguided wisdom who tried to help me. You even said that if I died during that period I was still saved.
So what kept me saved?
You did me good, I can't deny that.
But the thing I will deny and reject is that works will keep our initial salvation through genuine faith.
But hey you know that.
Even though we disagree I still love you as a sister.
Your crap works will be burned up and so will mine.
But what will never be burned up is our genuine faith in Jesus.
It's that faith that keeps us saved.
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I'm leaving.
You think PETER believed in predestination and election??
1 peter 1:2
2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
3 &4
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5
5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
7
, 7so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14-16
14As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FORI AM HOLY.”
You should keep on reading 1 Peter and find out for yourself what Jesus expects from you.
You think PETER believed in predestination and election??
1 peter 1:2
2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
3 &4
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5
5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
7
, 7so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14-16
14As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FORI AM HOLY.”
You should keep on reading 1 Peter and find out for yourself what Jesus expects from you.
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Adam was walking in the Garden with God.
Was he not saved?
Did he disobey God?
Does disobeying God mean you stop believing in Him?
If you BELIEVE in God, don't you obey Him?
Many theologians believe Judas was saved at the beginning of Jesus' ministry.
However, he was destined to be the one to betray Jesus.
God does pick some for very special roles...like Mary, for instance and Abraham.
Must go.
Was he not saved?
Did he disobey God?
Does disobeying God mean you stop believing in Him?
If you BELIEVE in God, don't you obey Him?
Many theologians believe Judas was saved at the beginning of Jesus' ministry.
However, he was destined to be the one to betray Jesus.
God does pick some for very special roles...like Mary, for instance and Abraham.
Must go.
NO, it says:
1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
John 10:27-30 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”
1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
John 10:27-30 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”
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Interesting thing to say.
I can't recall many theologians saying that.
The only people I have heard saying that is the Mormon people I know.
Send me a link to the others.
I do have to say though that I find it difficult concerning Judas.
After all someone had to do it.
In a sense (although may be misplaced) God hardened Pharos heart (although I don't get that either)
But I have to trust that God knows what he is doing to accomplish his purpose.
I can't recall many theologians saying that.
The only people I have heard saying that is the Mormon people I know.
Send me a link to the others.
I do have to say though that I find it difficult concerning Judas.
After all someone had to do it.
In a sense (although may be misplaced) God hardened Pharos heart (although I don't get that either)
But I have to trust that God knows what he is doing to accomplish his purpose.
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