Not By Works
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[QUOTE="eternally-gratefull, post: 3825303, member: 82611"]I cant do that because then i would be teaching we earn our salvation by our works not grace, and in doing so, reject grace. And reject salvation.
But you refuse to see that, because your trying to earn your salvation with your works, good luck with that. I will preach we obey out of love, we love because he first loved us, not in order to gain his love, something you have no understanding of.
Why wouod this be any different than saying i MUST obey in order to EARN my salvation.
You can twist words to fool yourself, but your not fooling me.[/QUOTE]
Then don't call me a liar anymore.
I'm sorry for you if you think that by obeying God you can lose your salvation...
which is basically what you're saying.
Sorry. I can't explain the difference again.
But I repeat:
WE ARE SAVED ONLY BY FAITH.
WE MAINTAIN OUR SALVATION BY OBEYING GOD.
OBEYING GOD MEANS DOING WHAT HE SAYS.
Seems easy enough to me.
Maybe it's not....
But you refuse to see that, because your trying to earn your salvation with your works, good luck with that. I will preach we obey out of love, we love because he first loved us, not in order to gain his love, something you have no understanding of.
Why wouod this be any different than saying i MUST obey in order to EARN my salvation.
You can twist words to fool yourself, but your not fooling me.[/QUOTE]
Then don't call me a liar anymore.
I'm sorry for you if you think that by obeying God you can lose your salvation...
which is basically what you're saying.
Sorry. I can't explain the difference again.
But I repeat:
WE ARE SAVED ONLY BY FAITH.
WE MAINTAIN OUR SALVATION BY OBEYING GOD.
OBEYING GOD MEANS DOING WHAT HE SAYS.
Seems easy enough to me.
Maybe it's not....
Hi E-g, and that is the deception she uses to push her counterfeit gospel. It is nothing more that the pride of Cain, and his offering to God which was unacceptable.
Our eternal salvation cannot be maintain through good works, we are saved unto good works; our eternal salvation is not maintained by our good works.
And when we are finish with our life on earth it is God who will present us blameless before Him not our wonderful works.
I know you understand this I am just pointing out the false gospel of Fran....
Our eternal salvation cannot be maintain through good works, we are saved unto good works; our eternal salvation is not maintained by our good works.
And when we are finish with our life on earth it is God who will present us blameless before Him not our wonderful works.
I know you understand this I am just pointing out the false gospel of Fran....
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I'm not talking about salvation or even sanctification as the definition of it anyway. Right now I can't even remember why I posted this because I'm too much involved in the gifts threads.
But I do know I was referencing these scriptures:
Php 3:8 What is more, I continue to consider all these things to be a loss for the sake of what is far more valuable, knowing the Messiah Jesus, my Lord. It is because of him that I have experienced the loss of all those things. Indeed, I consider them rubbish in order to gain the Messiah
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the Law, but one that comes through the faithfulness of the Messiah, the righteousness that comes from God and that depends on faith.
Php 3:10 I want to know the Messiah—what his resurrection power is like and what it means to share in his sufferings by becoming like him in his death,
Php 3:11 though I hope to experience the resurrection from the dead.
Straining Toward the Goal
Php 3:12 It's not that I have already reached this goal or have already become perfect. But I keep pursuing it, hoping somehow to embrace it just as I have been embraced by the Messiah Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider myself to have embraced it yet. But this one thing I do: Forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I keep pursuing the goal to win the prize of God's heavenly call in the Messiah Jesus.
Nothing that we receive as the inheritance that Jesus is and had, is given any other way except through faith.
Believing what He said is the truth is power in the spiritual realm. Opens many "doors".
Now I know you are going to say that Jesus is the door, and that's right. But, in the kingdom there are realms. And they have doorways to go through. Always His name is the admittance.
I dont know why but I like you.
But lets take a step back here and look at it:
We are saved only by faith, but to REMAIN saved, we have to do A,B,C..
The problem I have with this is that, how do you explain all the verses that speak of ETERNAL LIFE in the present tense? Meaning, you HAVE eternal life, right now.
If you have eternal life right now, this second, but it ends tomorrow, was it eternal?
How do you get around that? Or are you suggesting that the eternal life begins only in the resurrection? Thats fine by me, but what shall we do with the present tense then?
But lets take a step back here and look at it:
We are saved only by faith, but to REMAIN saved, we have to do A,B,C..
The problem I have with this is that, how do you explain all the verses that speak of ETERNAL LIFE in the present tense? Meaning, you HAVE eternal life, right now.
If you have eternal life right now, this second, but it ends tomorrow, was it eternal?
How do you get around that? Or are you suggesting that the eternal life begins only in the resurrection? Thats fine by me, but what shall we do with the present tense then?
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Sounds Like FUTILITY TO ME!
You Ever NOTICE HOW LONG AND LOUD they go one, when they want to puff themselves up with PRIDE, and QUOTE:
James 2:18 (NIV)
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
Bragging How GOOD they are about KEEPING THE LAW.
YET NEVER EVEN MENTIONING THAT JAMES SAID IN THE SAME CONTEXT ONLY 8 VERSES EARLIER SAID:
James 2:10 (NIV)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
And here is their STUMBLING BLOCK:
1 Peter 2:13-15 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
And Speed Limits are City, County, and State ORDINANCES!
GUILTY OF ALL OF THE LAW INCLUDING MURDER !
How come they NEVER MENTION Verse 10 when they READ verse 18 with their twisted Interpretation.
You Ever NOTICE HOW LONG AND LOUD they go one, when they want to puff themselves up with PRIDE, and QUOTE:
James 2:18 (NIV)
18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
Bragging How GOOD they are about KEEPING THE LAW.
YET NEVER EVEN MENTIONING THAT JAMES SAID IN THE SAME CONTEXT ONLY 8 VERSES EARLIER SAID:
James 2:10 (NIV)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
And here is their STUMBLING BLOCK:
1 Peter 2:13-15 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
And Speed Limits are City, County, and State ORDINANCES!
GUILTY OF ALL OF THE LAW INCLUDING MURDER !
How come they NEVER MENTION Verse 10 when they READ verse 18 with their twisted Interpretation.
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It's nice that somebody here likes me...I feel very unliked just because I try to follow Jesus.
Man has always been saved by faith...even in the O.T. I'm sure you agree with this.
The Law was not able to save. God gave the commandments and the Israelites said they would obey, but they did not and they all died and never made it to the Promised Land. (very few, but not the first generation).
Paul was trying to teach his Jewish brethren that the Law did not work...they were so used to following laws and being subject to the Romans that they no longer understood well about faith.
The Sanhedrin cared only about power and the Pharisees thought they were serving God by following every law (moral, civil and ceremonial) but they had forgotten that love for God starts in the heart.
This is why he concentrated so much on faith...but if we read carefully all his epistles, we would find that he also believed in the law....the law....but he attested to the fact that we are no longer UNDER the law because following the law does not work...only loving God works.
But if we love God, we should not be afraid to say that we must obey Him...yes, must. It's not a choice.
I'm going to use the NLT just so as not to get involved with words (I usually use the nasb)
John 8:31
Jesus said to the people who believed in him, "You are truly my disciples if you remain faithful to my teachings.
John 8:51
I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!"
And now we get into the present tense which you brought up.
Notice that in John 8:31 Jesus said we are His disciples IF WE REMAIN FAITHFUL to His teachings.
And in John 8:51 He says that those that OBEY His techings will never die.
In both instances Jesus uses the present tense.
John 3:16 is in the present tense.
IOW, He NEVER says that because we believed AT ONE TIME we will always be saved. He always used the present tense. This is because we have eternal life if we continue in our faith, continue to believe, and continue to obey.
If we stop with faith, belief or obedience, it becomes possible to lose our eternal life.
God can give it,
God can take it away.
We speak of His sovereignty, but then WE want to set the rules for salvation...
GOD sets the rules, not us.
As you see, I do not believe in OSAS. I believe we can lose our salvation if we abandon Jesus.
If the life is in HIM, then if we do not have Him, we become lost again.
Eternal security is only eternal in the Lord.
I can quote many verses to prove this...
Maybe this is the thorn. Some want to believe they're saved forever no matter what.
OK.
But is it also necessary to insist that we do not have to obey God?
This talk of obeying Him because we love Him is a cop out.
We obey Him because we have to...
Love makes it easier.
The Holy Spirit helps us.
THIS is the difference between the Mosaic and the New Covenants.
Man has always been saved by faith...even in the O.T. I'm sure you agree with this.
The Law was not able to save. God gave the commandments and the Israelites said they would obey, but they did not and they all died and never made it to the Promised Land. (very few, but not the first generation).
Paul was trying to teach his Jewish brethren that the Law did not work...they were so used to following laws and being subject to the Romans that they no longer understood well about faith.
The Sanhedrin cared only about power and the Pharisees thought they were serving God by following every law (moral, civil and ceremonial) but they had forgotten that love for God starts in the heart.
This is why he concentrated so much on faith...but if we read carefully all his epistles, we would find that he also believed in the law....the law....but he attested to the fact that we are no longer UNDER the law because following the law does not work...only loving God works.
But if we love God, we should not be afraid to say that we must obey Him...yes, must. It's not a choice.
I'm going to use the NLT just so as not to get involved with words (I usually use the nasb)
John 8:31
Jesus said to the people who believed in him, "You are truly my disciples if you remain faithful to my teachings.
John 8:51
I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys my teaching will never die!"
And now we get into the present tense which you brought up.
Notice that in John 8:31 Jesus said we are His disciples IF WE REMAIN FAITHFUL to His teachings.
And in John 8:51 He says that those that OBEY His techings will never die.
In both instances Jesus uses the present tense.
John 3:16 is in the present tense.
IOW, He NEVER says that because we believed AT ONE TIME we will always be saved. He always used the present tense. This is because we have eternal life if we continue in our faith, continue to believe, and continue to obey.
If we stop with faith, belief or obedience, it becomes possible to lose our eternal life.
God can give it,
God can take it away.
We speak of His sovereignty, but then WE want to set the rules for salvation...
GOD sets the rules, not us.
As you see, I do not believe in OSAS. I believe we can lose our salvation if we abandon Jesus.
If the life is in HIM, then if we do not have Him, we become lost again.
Eternal security is only eternal in the Lord.
I can quote many verses to prove this...
Maybe this is the thorn. Some want to believe they're saved forever no matter what.
OK.
But is it also necessary to insist that we do not have to obey God?
This talk of obeying Him because we love Him is a cop out.
We obey Him because we have to...
Love makes it easier.
The Holy Spirit helps us.
THIS is the difference between the Mosaic and the New Covenants.
I'm not talking about salvation or even sanctification as the definition of it anyway. Right now I can't even remember why I posted this because I'm too much involved in the gifts threads.
But I do know I was referencing these scriptures:
Php 3:8 What is more, I continue to consider all these things to be a loss for the sake of what is far more valuable, knowing the Messiah Jesus, my Lord. It is because of him that I have experienced the loss of all those things. Indeed, I consider them rubbish in order to gain the Messiah
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the Law, but one that comes through the faithfulness of the Messiah, the righteousness that comes from God and that depends on faith.
Php 3:10 I want to know the Messiah—what his resurrection power is like and what it means to share in his sufferings by becoming like him in his death,
Php 3:11 though I hope to experience the resurrection from the dead.
Php 3:12 It's not that I have already reached this goal or have already become perfect. But I keep pursuing it, hoping somehow to embrace it just as I have been embraced by the Messiah Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider myself to have embraced it yet. But this one thing I do: Forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I keep pursuing the goal to win the prize of God's heavenly call in the Messiah Jesus.
Nothing that we receive as the inheritance that Jesus is and had, is given any other way except through faith.
Believing what He said is the truth is power in the spiritual realm. Opens many "doors".
Now I know you are going to say that Jesus is the door, and that's right. But, in the kingdom there are realms. And they have doorways to go through. Always His name is the admittance.
But I do know I was referencing these scriptures:
Php 3:8 What is more, I continue to consider all these things to be a loss for the sake of what is far more valuable, knowing the Messiah Jesus, my Lord. It is because of him that I have experienced the loss of all those things. Indeed, I consider them rubbish in order to gain the Messiah
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the Law, but one that comes through the faithfulness of the Messiah, the righteousness that comes from God and that depends on faith.
Php 3:10 I want to know the Messiah—what his resurrection power is like and what it means to share in his sufferings by becoming like him in his death,
Php 3:11 though I hope to experience the resurrection from the dead.
Straining Toward the Goal
Php 3:12 It's not that I have already reached this goal or have already become perfect. But I keep pursuing it, hoping somehow to embrace it just as I have been embraced by the Messiah Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brothers, I do not consider myself to have embraced it yet. But this one thing I do: Forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I keep pursuing the goal to win the prize of God's heavenly call in the Messiah Jesus.
Nothing that we receive as the inheritance that Jesus is and had, is given any other way except through faith.
Believing what He said is the truth is power in the spiritual realm. Opens many "doors".
Now I know you are going to say that Jesus is the door, and that's right. But, in the kingdom there are realms. And they have doorways to go through. Always His name is the admittance.
most people I know in real life (i roam around the pentecostal crowd) agree with you. Thats why im not so surprised by what you are saying as some may be. I know in America that OSAS is the baptist standard, so maybe its more unusual if you are also American to be against it.
I dont believe its a cop-out to say that we love, therefore we obey.
Why did you obey your mom growing up? Because you loved your mother, or because you had to?
I dont believe its a cop-out to say that we love, therefore we obey.
Why did you obey your mom growing up? Because you loved your mother, or because you had to?
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R,
That is NOT what I'm saying.
My granddaughter is autistic. All she could do is love God. I doubt she can do any works for Him.
She's as saved as saved can be. She loves Jesus with all her heart.
Some people will never do works, for many reasons.
What I'm saying is that we must OBEY God. Obedience includes works.
What do YOU do for God?
Think about it.
Don't you do anything for Him?
Are you married?
Do you work?
Read this:
Colossiand 3:23-24
23Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,
24knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
If you do lots of works but do not love God, THAT is working under the law. This type of work has no meaning to God because He is not in your heart.
If you love God and obey Him and do what He tells you to do, then He DOES appreciate what you do for Him and He dwells with you.
That is NOT what I'm saying.
My granddaughter is autistic. All she could do is love God. I doubt she can do any works for Him.
She's as saved as saved can be. She loves Jesus with all her heart.
Some people will never do works, for many reasons.
What I'm saying is that we must OBEY God. Obedience includes works.
What do YOU do for God?
Think about it.
Don't you do anything for Him?
Are you married?
Do you work?
Read this:
Colossiand 3:23-24
23Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,
24knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
If you do lots of works but do not love God, THAT is working under the law. This type of work has no meaning to God because He is not in your heart.
If you love God and obey Him and do what He tells you to do, then He DOES appreciate what you do for Him and He dwells with you.
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