Not By Works

[GodsGrace101]

I have already explained this to JPT numerous times in the past and also just yesterday in post #81,127 but he JUST DOESN'T GET IT and continues to peddle salvation by faith + works. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-4057

Did you ever consider that maybe it's YOU that doesn't get it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see you got a thumbs down.
Posters here say that we SHOULD obey....
but when we get right down to it,,,it's not what they believe.

You do realise lying is a sin do you not? Bearing false witness is one of the commandments, which you keep breaking, then again, your hear is sin, because you have been banned, so it is easy to understand why you think you can sin all you want while judging others. Its the legalistic mindset.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

YOUR salvation depends on YOU doing what JESUS said to do.
If forgiving others is one of those deeds, then you are required to do it.
God does not make requests.

Mathew 6:14-15
14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions. "

Jesus said it's necessary to forgive...
You seem to be happy that YOU are saved.
Does your salvation require you to follow the teachings of Christ?

James 1:22
22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

There she goes again teaching works based salvation. Why do people keep enabling her?

 

[GodsGrace101]

You do realise lying is a sin do you not? Bearing false witness is one of the commandments, which you keep breaking, then again, your hear is sin, because you have been banned, so it is easy to understand why you think you can sin all you want while judging others. Its the legalistic mindset.

I'm lying??
OK.

Then clearly say that it is necessary for us to OBEY GOD in order to maintain our salvation....
Or if you can't go that far.
confirm that it's necessary and required of us to OBEY GOD.

(something you have not been able to do till now).

 

[GodsGrace101]

So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's and Campbellites.

*Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith and "keep" Greek word "tereo" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments and practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

*Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and "without faith its impossible to please God" (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on their works. *So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

Hebrews 5:9
Hebrews was written for Jews that had converted to Christianity and also to show that Jesus was better...a better priest, a better prophet, a better King, a better sacrifice.

5:9 states that whoever believes in Jesus and obeys Him, will have eternal life...HE is the source of eternal life.

First of all, I don't believe in salvation by works...so please stop addressing me as such.
Second of all, I don't understand how this verse could even be used in that sense.

Unbelievers DO NOT NEED to obey God...they are ALREADY lost. You can't get more lost than lost.
Then you say we practice righteousness and not sin.
YOU don't sin? Strange comment coming from you because I know you don't mean what it sounds like.

 

[TruthTalk]

Defeniveness? Haha hardly. But, glad I could help you keep track who agrees with you or not. Must keep the people neatly divided into their respective groups..... gotcha

Not looking for an argument, good bye.

 

[TruthTalk]

There she goes again teaching works based salvation. Why do people keep enabling her?

Hi E-g, I agree and I believe her days are coming to an end. Hopefully the Moderators' will see and do what is appropriate.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Get to it.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (neither obtained or maintained by works) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.

Believers produce works BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved or maintain their salvation status, which is through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

We could never do enough work to maintain our salvation. That is type 2 works salvation. We could choose not to work at times, but never work at all demonstrates a lack of faith. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.

Now you sound like a lawyer.

They have meaning in regards to rightly dividing the word of truth.

God did not use the man made word "Trinity" in the Bible, yet the word "Trinity" accurately describes the Godhead. There is one God in essence/nature that eternally exist in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

How do deeds cause us to "keep" our salvation? Does Christ need to "add" our deeds to His finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us? NO. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28) From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS. If someone claims to have faith, yet produces NO works at all, then they demonstrate that they have a dead faith and not authentic faith, so there was nothing to keep or maintain. You are really hung up on type 2 works salvation.

In John 5:28-29, the good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis of their salvation but the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as I already explained to you in Romans 2:6-10. *Now notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

In John 5:24, we read - "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." This is Jesus speaking...NOT ME.

Works are absolutely necessary to keep our salvation because this is obedience to God.
It's not our decision as to whether or not we should obey. We MUST obey.
God has always demanded obedience.

Exodus 20:6 God said to Moses:
6but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

1 John 5:3
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments;

If we love God, we are willing to keep His commandments...
If we cannot even state that we are to keep His commandments...do we love Him?
If we cannot even SAY IT...can we do it?


What is the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant?
Does God no longer require obedience?
Did He not write the LAW IN OUR HEART??
Jeremiah 31:33
God did not abolish His law...He just wrote it on our heart.
Jesus made the same statement:
Mathew 5:17
And then Jesus brought the law to the heart level:
Mathew 5:21-28

Jesus went so far as to say that if we sin, it would be better to cut our arm off than for it to make us sin....because He understood the gravity of ending up away from God after death and He wanted to teach us how to avoid this.

The word Trinity is not in the bible....but the concept IS.
Do we find in the bible the concept of not having to obey God or do works for Him?
If so, could you post the verses please?

Now to your verses:

Romans 2:6-10
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

I haven't anything to add to the above...it supports my POV.
Please show me where it speaks to BELIEVERS and UNBELIEVERS.
I find that it's speaking about doing good deeds and evil deeds.
Please post the verse that speaks of BELIEVING....


John 3:18
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Of course. We're born lost. IF we believe in Jesus, we will not be condemned. We must be born from above as He had just told Nicodemus.

But what does this believe mean:
See verse 21:
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Once again Jesus is speaking about DEEDS. The one that PRACTICES the truth comes to the light, so that his DEEDS may be manifested as having been works pleasing God.


John 5:24
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Is it enough to HEAR Jesus' word, or also TO DO IT?
James 1:22
22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

John 14:21 JESUS SAID:
21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hi...I just want to ask you a question...What happens to a person (am being extreme here } who has had an accident , can never ever walk again , cannot talk but understands everything that is said to them...
They can only communicate through blinking , but they have received Christ after hearing the word , yet they can never work for our LORD , does that mean they are saved but also not really saved because they have produced no works ? , or are they saved because they have believed on our LORD Jesus Christ , confessed by blinking ? ...xox...

Do you read your bible?

Luke 23:43

 

[VCO]

sure.

it's like this - we ae saved by grace through faith for good works.

that is the order- salvation is from God the Father through Christ the Son, we have faith, trust ( belief ) in Him, and then we are empowered by the Holy Sprit to do good works.

so, yes, we are to obey.

but, obeying does NOT , NOT , NOT , produce or maintain salvation.

EXACTLY, SALVATION comes FIRST, then the Holy Spirit EMPOWERS us to do good works.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hi E-g, I agree and I believe her days are coming to an end. Hopefully the Moderators' will see and do what is appropriate.

Your hatred is awesome.
I don't think the mods need your help.
They seem to be doing a good job here.

I DO bother you with the truth, don't I ??
It must be difficult to hear the truth.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I'm lying??
OK.

Then clearly say that it is necessary for us to OBEY GOD in order to maintain our salvation....
Or if you can't go that far.
confirm that it's necessary and required of us to OBEY GOD.

(something you have not been able to do till now).

YOUR salvation depends on YOU doing what JESUS said to do.
If forgiving others is one of those deeds, then you are required to do it.
God does not make requests.

Mathew 6:14-15
14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions. "

Jesus said it's necessary to forgive...
You seem to be happy that YOU are saved.
Does your salvation require you to follow the teachings of Christ?

James 1:22
22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

You can work out of fear of losing the salvation you must fight so hard to maintain....


I will work out of love for Him who loved me first, regardless of my righteousness.


You can trust in your own actions....

I will trust in Jesus Christ.....


I pray one day you will be delivered from the deception which has it's teeth so deep into your mind and heart....


1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
_________
Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
___________

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
____________
Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
____________
Romans 3:22 - Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
_____________
Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
___________

1 Peter 2:24 - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
__________
Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
__________
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
______________
romans 11 6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If you do not agree that works keep us saved,,,
it means you're against works.

 

[VCO]

Hmm... So YOUR salvation depends on YOU forgiving others. I am beyond grateful My Salvation depends on CHRIST forgiving me because of HIS Blood and Righteousness!

What Jesus is saying is DESCRIPTIVE NOT PRESCRIPTIVE of what a Born Again Child of God WILL do.

AMEN! That is "what a Born Again Child of God WILL do."

 

[GodsGrace101]

Get to it.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (neither obtained or maintained by works) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.

Believers produce works BECAUSE they are saved and not in order to become saved or maintain their salvation status, which is through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

We could never do enough work to maintain our salvation. That is type 2 works salvation. We could choose not to work at times, but never work at all demonstrates a lack of faith. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.

Now you sound like a lawyer.

They have meaning in regards to rightly dividing the word of truth.


God did not use the man made word "Trinity" in the Bible, yet the word "Trinity" accurately describes the Godhead. There is one God in essence/nature that eternally exist in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

How do deeds cause us to "keep" our salvation? Does Christ need to "add" our deeds to His finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us? NO. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28) From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS. If someone claims to have faith, yet produces NO works at all, then they demonstrate that they have a dead faith and not authentic faith, so there was nothing to keep or maintain. You are really hung up on type 2 works salvation.

In John 5:28-29, the good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis of their salvation but the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as I already explained to you in Romans 2:6-10. *Now notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

In John 5:24, we read - "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." This is Jesus speaking...NOT ME.

Works are absolutely necessary to keep our salvation because this is obedience to God.
It's not our decision as to whether or not we should obey. We MUST obey.
God has always demanded obedience.

Exodus 20:6 God said to Moses:
6but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

1 John 5:3
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments;

If we love God, we are willing to keep His commandments...
If we cannot even state that we are to keep His commandments...do we love Him?
If we cannot even SAY IT...can we do it?


What is the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant?
Does God no longer require obedience?
Did He not write the LAW IN OUR HEART??
Jeremiah 31:33
God did not abolish His law...He just wrote it on our heart.
Jesus made the same statement:
Mathew 5:17
And then Jesus brought the law to the heart level:
Mathew 5:21-28

Jesus went so far as to say that if we sin, it would be better to cut our arm off than for it to make us sin....because He understood the gravity of ending up away from God after death and He wanted to teach us how to avoid this.

The word Trinity is not in the bible....but the concept IS.
Do we find in the bible the concept of not having to obey God or do works for Him?
If so, could you post the verses please?

Now to your verses:

Romans 2:6-10
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

I haven't anything to add to the above...it supports my POV.
Please show me where it speaks to BELIEVERS and UNBELIEVERS.
I find that it's speaking about doing good deeds and evil deeds.
Please post the verse that speaks of BELIEVING....


John 3:18
18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Of course. We're born lost. IF we believe in Jesus, we will not be condemned. We must be born from above as He had just told Nicodemus.

But what does this believe mean:
See verse 21:
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Once again Jesus is speaking about DEEDS. The one that PRACTICES the truth comes to the light, so that his DEEDS may be manifested as having been works pleasing God.


John 5:24
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Is it enough to HEAR Jesus' word, or also TO DO IT?
James 1:22
22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

John 14:21 JESUS SAID:
21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

 

[GodsGrace101]

You can work out of fear of losing the salvation you must fight so hard to maintain....


I will work out of love for Him who loved me first, regardless of my righteousness.


You can trust in your own actions....

I will trust in Jesus Christ.....


I pray one day you will be delivered from the deception which has it's teeth so deep into your mind and heart....


1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
_________
Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
___________

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
____________
Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
____________
Romans 3:22 - Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
_____________
Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
___________

1 Peter 2:24 - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
__________
Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
__________
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
______________
romans 11 6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

NNM

What are THE WORKS OF THE LAW?
Please explain...

 

[GodsGrace101]

You can work out of fear of losing the salvation you must fight so hard to maintain....


I will work out of love for Him who loved me first, regardless of my righteousness.


You can trust in your own actions....

I will trust in Jesus Christ.....


I pray one day you will be delivered from the deception which has it's teeth so deep into your mind and heart....


1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
_________
Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
___________

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
____________
Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
____________
Romans 3:22 - Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
_____________
Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
___________

1 Peter 2:24 - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
__________
Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
__________
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
______________
romans 11 6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Oh. And maybe you could begin to use verses that actually back you up.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I'm lying??
OK.

Then clearly say that it is necessary for us to OBEY GOD in order to maintain our salvation....
Or if you can't go that far.
confirm that it's necessary and required of us to OBEY GOD.

(something you have not been able to do till now).

BUMP.

Well, @eternally-gratefull
This is what you said to which I replied the above.
If you're going to call me a liar, you really should be able to back it up
OR NOT SAY IT.

eternally-gratefull said:
You do realise lying is a sin do you not? Bearing false witness is one of the commandments, which you keep breaking, then again, your hear is sin, because you have been banned, so it is easy to understand why you think you can sin all you want while judging others. Its the legalistic mindset.

 

[gb9]

Oh. And maybe you could begin to use verses that actually back you up.

maybe you could read the sermon on the mount, ( I told you this yesterday , you ignored it ), and then see if you keep that standard 100% of the time.

because, at the end Jesus states "you shall be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect . "

God's standard is perfection . can you be perfectly obedient ?

 

[VCO]

If you can identify all this about my post why didn't you see the heart of the message?

I answered plainly then explained my answer. The answer isn't a simple yes or no. The Spirit does not use the law for righteousness sake, but the law is of the Spirit. God writes his law upon our hearts through the Spirit. They are all observed through faith. And the works they produced are not our own.
To try and divide the two pitting one against the other is where many go astray.

But righteousness is offered apart from works of the law. It's attained through faith.

I would not say ATTAINED through faith, if I were You.

Faith is a work of the Holy Spirit, and NOT SELF.


Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

Now wouldn't that be VERY Closely related to Blaspheming the Holy Spirit ? ? ?

 

[TruthTalk]

Why do YOU think I was "banned"??

Okay if you will please tell the forum why you were banned.