Not By Works

[Argueless]

... It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. THE LORD WILL PUNISH MEN FOR ALL SUCH SINS, as we have already told you and WARNED YOU. For GOD DID NOT CALL YOU TO BE IMPURE, BUT TO LIVE A HOLY LIFE. Therefore, HE WHO REJECTS THIS INSTRUCTION DOES NOT REJECT MAN BUT GOD, who gives you his Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8

... Therefore, PREPARE YOUR MINDS FOR ACTION; be self-controlled; SET YOUR HOPE FULLY ON THE GRACE TO BE GIVEN YOU WHEN JESUS CHRIST IS REVEALED. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 1 Peter 1:13-16

... But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

...I know your deeds, you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF MY GOD.3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT, AND REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelation 3:1-3

...See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, IF WE TURN AWAY FROM HIM WHO WARNS US FROM HEAVEN? Hebrews 12:25

 

[VCO]

how many times a day do I have to confess in order to be saved?

is it the same from one day to the next?

do I have to confess more on the Sabbath?

just wondering.....

Look at all Fran has to confess:


1 Peter 2:13-16 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.


INCLUDING THESE ORDINANCES OF MAN:

ETC., ETC., ETC

 

[TruthTalk]

Look at all Fran has to confess: ETC., ETC., ETC

Yes Fran has a lot to confess to include being banned from Christianchat.

 

[star]

What kind of faith would lead one to become lost if that faith is lost?
How many different types of faith are there?

Jesus said that faith the size of a mustard seed is sufficient to move mountains...
but He also said faith could be temporary.
Luke 8:13

Jesus said faith could be "temporary." The faith that brings us to Christ as a saving faith is eternal and not temporary. Our salvation is forever. So you are speaking about 2 different things.

Faith unto salvation is eternal.

Faith day to day can be strong, weak but if one is saved, it will never be lost.

 

[VCO]

In other words;

Being saved TO observe the law 'is equal' to observing the law TO be saved.

Trying to get someone to understand they are shooting themselves in the foot. You think this would be an easy task?

I do believe our work is cut out for us! (pun intended)

Let me explain.

SALVATION has NOTHING TO DO WITH OBEDIENCE, it is a FREE GIFT.

IF you have genuinely BEEN SAVED, it's obvious transformation, is IN YOUR HEART (HUMAN SPIRIT), and it is a TOTALLY FREE GIFT.

After you have been SAVED, You will WANT to OBEY, BECAUSE GOD's LOVE has been Poured INTO YOUR HEART, and because your Human Spirit is ETERNALLY ALIVE. OBEDIENCE spawns out of GOD's LOVE that HE had the Holy Spirit Pour into your Heart (Human Spirit).
It is natural for the Born Again Human Spirit to want to LOVE GOD BACK, and Obedience is how we do it..

I hope and pray you can now understand, why if the MOTIVE for Obedience IS NOT LOVE, it is nothing but Filthy Rags to the LORD.

Romans 5:1-10 (HCSB)
1 Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We have also obtained access through Him by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only that, but we also rejoice in our afflictions, because we know that affliction produces endurance,
4 endurance produces proven character, and proven character produces hope.
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For rarely will someone die for a just person—though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die.
8 But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!


1 John 4:19 (HCSB)
19 We love because He first loved us.


OBEDIENCE IS PART OF OUR LOVE, and has nothing to do with SALVATION, which is a FREE GIFT.

 

[mailmandan]

Notice that your first paragraph says "by works of THE LAW".
The spirit is NOT received by works of the Law.

Perhaps you could learn the difference between WORKS OF THE LAW
and WORKS OF OBEDIENCE.

Titus 3:1

Romans 6:16

You need to go back and read post #81,143. I asked a critical question there that you really need to answer. The not saved by works of the law, but saved by works of obedience argument is bogus.

BTW, neither Titus 3:1 or Romans 6:16 teach that we are saved by works. We must not ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress “obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which follow faith in Christ are “unto righteousness.”

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness.

*When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Paul goes on to say in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become servants/slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

 

[VCO]

Jesus said faith could be "temporary." The faith that brings us to Christ as a saving faith is eternal and not temporary. Our salvation is forever. So you are speaking about 2 different things.

Faith unto salvation is eternal.

Faith day to day can be strong, weak but if one is saved, it will never be lost.

Yes, I see your point, however thankfully most of us hear, only count GENUINE FAITH that IS ETERNAL, and the temporary faith, is those who have not been BORN AGAIN yet.

Here is another example of Temporary Faith:

James 2:19 (NIV)
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

 

[WalkingTree]

OBEDIENCE IS PART OF OUR LOVE, and has nothing to do with SALVATION, which is a FREE GIFT.

If you mean obedience to the law as given Moses then no, incorrect. Especially if your not Jewish.

It seems Jesus himself said that within the Law contained things pertaining to the 'salvation of God'. AND that the things written within the Law about the Salvation of God were being fulfilled by Jesus himself.

It also seems John witnessed the same thing, that within the laws given Moses and the prophets contained the testimony about Jesus. It (the gospel) was preached 'through the Law' UNTIL Jesus came. THEN it was preached from his very own mouth, as if it were God.

The Law and the Prophets witnessed about God's way of making people righteous in his sight, clearly by Jesus own testimony. Which witnesses the fathers testimony given in the Law. Both are One, not separated for all eternity 'because of' Messiah.

The law witnessed the salvation of God from it's very essence. The law leads to Messiah. And Messiah does NOT lead away from the Law. The only thing Paul is going on about in his letters are those who believe following the law leads to righteousness and the promised inheritance. It does not, never did and can never.

It leads us by instructing us in the ways of our God, the God of Israel. It is an image of the heart and soul of the very person of Messiah. To believe that the law is no longer a part of God's path to salvation is like removing the heart from the body and expecting it to live. There is no faith without it being walked out in good works. In order to even receive it one has to 'move'. A work. Free gift, now come and take it.

Or do you believe Jesus will forgive you for all you do even though you forsake all he intends? Summed up as love God and others. The Messiah loves Israel, He does not do away with our laws. He transforms it. Fulfills, and completes it within those who follow him. Both the law and Israel are loved and restored. You can't point to a prophetic scripture about Jesus without running smack dab into a promise to redeem Israel as a nation.

The Law has EVERYTHING to do with God our Salvation, Jesus. Without the Law the nations would never have known of Him. And without Israel the nations would have never known our Messiah who embodied our Torah. In the flesh. And who will still complete his promises when he returns. In regards to Israel. Our redemption is promised over and over and was walked out over and over for thousands of years.

Israel lives, her Torah lives, as sure as our Messiah lives!

The law has everything to do with Jesus, the Salvation of God. To teach otherwise is to teach a false gospel. On par to following the law to obtain salvation. The law doesn't save us, it leads us to our salvation. God didn't forsake it, Messiah didn't, his apostles didn't, why would we?

 

[dcontroversal]

Two things D,

1. What is this "positional" you speak of? Is it found in the N.T.? Please post something that can show what you're speaking of.

2. You say all of the items on your list are instantly applied when one believes.

Paul does not agree with you:

Philippians 3:9-14
9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Please note the following:

Righteousness comes from faith in God.
No faith....no righteousness, and yet you say we cannot lose faith.

We must conform ourselves to His death.
Luke 9:23
Mathew 10:38
Ephesians 4:20-24

Jesus said to continue forward and not look back...He said there is a price to pay to be Christian.
Luke 9:62

Go study more Fran without the Catholic twist.....they do apply instantly when one acknowledges saving faith.....the following is factual evidence only rejected by those who must help their god<--the one not found in scripture......

dcontroversal said:
AMEN........

a. He that believes on the SON is having everlasting life
b. In the grace you are, having been saved OUT of FAITH...
c. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith and not by the deeds/works of the law
d. We have been sanctified positionally and eternally by faith in Christ
e. The righteousness of Christ has been IMPUTED to our account by FAITH

ALL of the above are instantly applied by faith the micro second one believes and they are eternally applied by the irrevocable gift of GOD.......HE SUSTAINS all of it by HIS power through the FAITH he begins, finishes and completes......!!!!

 

[oldethennew]

'falling-away' - denying - ??? are these really a possibility to those who claim that this
cannot happen???

 

[dcontroversal]

You might be correct, so this not a debate on my part. I was taught the 7 churches represented dispensations. And whether that is true or not, the 7 churches mentioned do align perfectly to the overall mental state of society, not just the church itself.

I will only speak of the last 2 briefly. And yes, it could be just a coincidence. The 6th church listed was called Philadelphius. This term has always meant from then to now (brotherly love). The city of Philadelphia (football = Eagles, basketball = 76ers, baseball = Phillies) is called the City of Brotherly Love. So we know this name means Brotherly Love. Look at the 1960's to right before the year 2,000. This period was know to the secular world as PEACE, HARMONY, LOVE, BROTHERLY LOVE. Kind of interesting how for a period of almost 40 years the entire WORLD (believers and non believers) classified the era we lived in as such.

Ironically, the transition going from 1999 to the year 2,000 began with another world and church theme (Y2K). And interestingly enough, after this passed, so did the idea of helping one another, loving one another, peace, harmony. Science became the vocal point of the world and intelligence. Since 2,000, more police brutality has happened in the past 18+ years then ALL of the 20th Century itself. No one helps anyone any more. And I mentioned this already in my previous post including churches have allowed homosexuals to be preachers - teachers and so forth. We clearly are in a point of time where we are in limbo (neither hot or cold). We fit Laodecia like God meant for this to happen.

But if we went back into history and used the 7 churches as dispensations, they do ALL LINE up specifically to what was happening in the world at that moment and what was happening in the church at that moment.

To me, it's been a great barometer to go by!!

I just go by the fact that all 7 churches can be found on the planet to this day........based upon information and analysis by probably 40 men that I went to seminary with that pastor churches all over this nation and in about 5 to 7 countries.......every gambit of the 7 in Revelation can be found on the earth.......

I have heard the view you speak of and have even sat under men that believed it.....I just don't buy it.....not saying you are they are wrong necessarily.....just that I do not buy it based upon the fact that all 7 can be found unto this day.....

 

[VCO]

If you mean obedience to the law as given Moses then no, incorrect. Especially if your not Jewish.

It seems Jesus himself said that within the Law contained things pertaining to the 'salvation of God'. AND that the things written within the Law about the Salvation of God were being fulfilled by Jesus himself.

It also seems John witnessed the same thing, that within the laws given Moses and the prophets contained the testimony about Jesus. It (the gospel) was preached 'through the Law' UNTIL Jesus came. THEN it was preached from his very own mouth, as if it were God.

The Law and the Prophets witnessed about God's way of making people righteous in his sight, clearly by Jesus own testimony. Which witnesses the fathers testimony given in the Law. Both are One, not separated for all eternity 'because of' Messiah.

The law witnessed the salvation of God from it's very essence. The law leads to Messiah. And Messiah does NOT lead away from the Law. The only thing Paul is going on about in his letters are those who believe following the law leads to righteousness and the promised inheritance. It does not, never did and can never.

It leads us by instructing us in the ways of our God, the God of Israel. It is an image of the heart and soul of the very person of Messiah. To believe that the law is no longer a part of God's path to salvation is like removing the heart from the body and expecting it to live. There is no faith without it being walked out in good works. In order to even receive it one has to 'move'. A work. Free gift, now come and take it.

Or do you believe Jesus will forgive you for all you do even though you forsake all he intends? Summed up as love God and others. The Messiah loves Israel, He does not do away with our laws. He transforms it. Fulfills, and completes it within those who follow him. Both the law and Israel are loved and restored. You can't point to a prophetic scripture about Jesus without running smack dab into a promise to redeem Israel as a nation.

The Law has EVERYTHING to do with God our Salvation, Jesus. Without the Law the nations would never have known of Him. And without Israel the nations would have never known our Messiah who embodied our Torah. In the flesh. And who will still complete his promises when he returns. In regards to Israel. Our redemption is promised over and over and was walked out over and over for thousands of years.

Israel lives, her Torah lives, as sure as our Messiah lives!

The law has everything to do with Jesus, the Salvation of God. To teach otherwise is to teach a false gospel. On par to following the law to obtain salvation. The law doesn't save us, it leads us to our salvation. God didn't forsake it, Messiah didn't, his apostles didn't, why would we?

Salvation is the born again experience, and HE says Whatever is born of the Holy Spirit IS SPIRIT; and that happens the very moment were first believe. It has NOTHING to do with conforming the body to be like Christ, that is SANCTIFICATION.

John 3:6 (HCSB)
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Therefore Salvation is SAVING the human spirit. AFTER THAT, then and only then can you begin your lifelong struggle to Conform you body to Be like HIS, which will not be complete until the Resurrection. That Process is called SANCTIFICATION.

1 John 2:6 (NASB)
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

The OBEDIENCE that I was referring to is an ongoing LOVE relationship to GOD and Christ:


1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,

Only when we Obey out of a MOTIVE OF LOVE, is it NOT A BURDEN.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

 

[Argueless]

LOVE is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:10

LOVE was poured into our HEARTS. Romans 5:5

God is LOVE. 1 John 4:8-16

The Father and the Son will dwell in a true believers HEART. John 14:23

The WORD was sown into our HEARTS. See Matthew 13:11-43

God will write in our HEARTS and put in our minds His laws. Hebrews 8:10 & 10:16 .

..Jesus replied: “‘LOVE the Lord your God with all your HEART and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ Matthew 22:37

... This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 1 John 5:2-3

... If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and IF I HAVE A FAITH that can move mountains, but have not love, I AM NOTHING. 1 Corinthians 13:2 and see also Romans 3:3-4

... For IN Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is FAITH EXPRESSING ITSELF THROUGH (WORKING IN) LOVE. Galatians 5:6

What's in your HEART?

...“As for the person who hears my words but DOES NOT KEEP THEM, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who REJECTS ME AND DOES NOT ACCEPT MY WORDS; that very word which I spoke WILL CONDEMN HIM AT THE LAST DAY. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I KNOW THAT HIS COMMAND LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.” John 12:47-50 and see also John 14:12-31

Who is leading you to NULLIFY and REJECT GOD'S law which is His very own WORD? (See Mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24, Malachi 3:13-18)

 

[WalkingTree]

Salvation is the born again experience, and HE says Whatever is born of the Holy Spirit IS SPIRIT; and that happens the very moment were first believe. It has NOTHING to do with conforming the body to be like Christ, that is SANCTIFICATION.

John 3:6 (HCSB)
6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Therefore Salvation is SAVING the human spirit. AFTER THAT, then and only then can you begin your lifelong struggle to Conform you body to Be like HIS, which will not be complete until the Resurrection. That Process is called SANCTIFICATION.

1 John 2:6 (NASB)
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

The OBEDIENCE that I was referring to is an ongoing LOVE relationship to GOD and Christ:


1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,

Only when we Obey out of a MOTIVE OF LOVE, is it NOT A BURDEN.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

obey what? The commands given Israel through Moses? The commands given through Moses minus the Levitical service (sda style), or the commands given through Jesus? They aren't the same. Do you believe you are sanctified through the obeying the law given Israel through Moses?
If not, I can agree with much of what you posted.

 

[dcontroversal]

sorry fran, I have already played this game with you ( and won, you got banned the first time ), not playing again.

our obeying is the result of salvation, not a cause.

AMEN......simple as.......the simplicity found in Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes it is imperative to understand this word, but as we can see, many re-define BELIEVES to "include" works. Such people try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith and the end result is salvation by faith + works.

And or peddle a faith that we must maintain..........false!

 

[TruthTalk]

If you mean obedience to the law as given Moses then no, incorrect. Especially if your not Jewish.

It seems Jesus himself said that within the Law contained things pertaining to the 'salvation of God'. AND that the things written within the Law about the Salvation of God were being fulfilled by Jesus himself.

It also seems John witnessed the same thing, that within the laws given Moses and the prophets contained the testimony about Jesus. It (the gospel) was preached 'through the Law' UNTIL Jesus came. THEN it was preached from his very own mouth, as if it were God.

The Law and the Prophets witnessed about God's way of making people righteous in his sight, clearly by Jesus own testimony. Which witnesses the fathers testimony given in the Law. Both are One, not separated for all eternity 'because of' Messiah.

The law witnessed the salvation of God from it's very essence. The law leads to Messiah. And Messiah does NOT lead away from the Law. The only thing Paul is going on about in his letters are those who believe following the law leads to righteousness and the promised inheritance. It does not, never did and can never.

It leads us by instructing us in the ways of our God, the God of Israel. It is an image of the heart and soul of the very person of Messiah. To believe that the law is no longer a part of God's path to salvation is like removing the heart from the body and expecting it to live. There is no faith without it being walked out in good works. In order to even receive it one has to 'move'. A work. Free gift, now come and take it.

Or do you believe Jesus will forgive you for all you do even though you forsake all he intends? Summed up as love God and others. The Messiah loves Israel, He does not do away with our laws. He transforms it. Fulfills, and completes it within those who follow him. Both the law and Israel are loved and restored. You can't point to a prophetic scripture about Jesus without running smack dab into a promise to redeem Israel as a nation.

The Law has EVERYTHING to do with God our Salvation, Jesus. Without the Law the nations would never have known of Him. And without Israel the nations would have never known our Messiah who embodied our Torah. In the flesh. And who will still complete his promises when he returns. In regards to Israel. Our redemption is promised over and over and was walked out over and over for thousands of years.

Israel lives, her Torah lives, as sure as our Messiah lives!

The law has everything to do with Jesus, the Salvation of God. To teach otherwise is to teach a false gospel. On par to following the law to obtain salvation. The law doesn't save us, it leads us to our salvation. God didn't forsake it, Messiah didn't, his apostles didn't, why would we?

God didn't forsake it, Messiah didn't, his apostles didn't, why would we?

Hi Walking tree, nice to meet you. So when you refer to the word, "it", as in, "God didn't forsake", "it", then I can surmise that you are referring to God's "Law."

And also I counted the word "law" was used 20 times in just a few paragraphs so again to follow your thoughts correctly you believe that as a true believer of Jesus we are required to follow the Law?, or am I not reading your words correctly.

 

[dcontroversal]

P.S.
Since when is mocking a Christ-like behavior?
John 13:35

Oh...ask Elijah, John, Jesus.......some of their ore interesting colorful statements...mocking, sarcasm and even pointed statements of truth concerning false teachers, or false dogmas is not unbiblical......

Maybe your god is asleep or on a trip or slumbering
Ye generation of snakes and vipers
Ye hypocrites, blind leaders of the blind and white washed coffins filled with the bones of dead men

 

[dcontroversal]

It's cute how you pick the verses you like.
How about Ephesians 2:10
What does that mean.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Why are you so against works?
That's what you'll have to do if you want to be a disciple of Jesus.

None of the verses you stated say anything about NOT WORKING.
Find some of those....

"For" does not equal "by" and indicates the process of creation BEFORE the reason one is created for...........

FAITH is what saves, justifies and positionally sanctifies a man before GOD........works do not finish off, embellish or help the aforementioned 4 bolded words

 

[dcontroversal]

Notice that your first paragraph says "by works of THE LAW".
The spirit is NOT received by works of the Law.

Perhaps you could learn the difference between WORKS OF THE LAW
and WORKS OF OBEDIENCE.

Titus 3:1

Romans 6:16

Talk about splitting hairs.......and exactly why you miss the truth Fran........